Evolution

[SouthernMo]

In a few places, I’ve seen that the LDS church has no official views on evolution.

Joseph Smith is supposed to have received revelation in 1832 that the earth is 7,000 years old (D&C 77:6).

How are we to sustain the D&C as true revelation, yet officially reject that teaching?  Are there other scriptural teachings LDS officially reject?

[Hamba Tuhan]

You seem to be conflating two issues here.

[Metis_LDS]

7 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

In a few places, I’ve seen that the LDS church has no official views on evolution.

Joseph Smith is supposed to have received revelation in 1832 that the earth is 7,000 years old (D&C 77:6).

How are we to sustain the D&C as true revelation, yet officially reject that teaching?  Are there other scriptural teachings LDS officially reject?

Q. What are we to understand by the book which John saw, which was sealed on the back with seven seals?
    A. We are to understand that it contains the revealed will, mysteries, and the works of God; the hidden things of his economy concerning this earth during the seven thousand years of its continuance, or its temporal existence.
(Doctrine and Covenants 77:6)
 

[Calm]

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Mormonism_and_science/Age_of_the_Earth#Question:_How_do_we_reconcile_the_actual_age_of_the_earth_to_the_.22seven_thousand_years_of_its_continuance.22_mentioned_in_D.26C_77:6.3F

“The Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, (2002) chapter "Section 77 Questions and Answers on the Book of Revelation" states that the seven thousand years "do not include the period of our planet's creation and preparation as a dwelling place for man."”

[Metis_LDS]

12 minutes ago, Metis_LDS said:

during the seven thousand years of its continuance, or its temporal existence

Are we or anyone sure this says or means that the earth is seven thousand years old.

It is quoting a period in my mind a set of years.

[SouthernMo]

16 minutes ago, Calm said:

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Mormonism_and_science/Age_of_the_Earth#Question:_How_do_we_reconcile_the_actual_age_of_the_earth_to_the_.22seven_thousand_years_of_its_continuance.22_mentioned_in_D.26C_77:6.3F

“The Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, (2002) chapter "Section 77 Questions and Answers on the Book of Revelation" states that the seven thousand years "do not include the period of our planet's creation and preparation as a dwelling place for man."”

So man has only been on earth for 7,000 years, and the LDS position is that any evidence of humans before 5,000(ish) BC is either a hoax or falsely dated?

[SouthernMo]

35 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

You seem to be conflating two issues here.

Explain 

[Maidservant]

22 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

In a few places, I’ve seen that the LDS church has no official views on evolution.

Joseph Smith is supposed to have received revelation in 1832 that the earth is 7,000 years old (D&C 77:6).

How are we to sustain the D&C as true revelation, yet officially reject that teaching?  Are there other scriptural teachings LDS officially reject?

The whole purpose of revelation, or scriptures, is to lead a person, and the world/its families, to greater healing (=salvation).  No more, no less.  The whole purpose of the work of the Father and of the Son (the Savior) and of the Holy Ghost is that healing.  The scriptures testify to the work of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, which is to lead humankind to their greatest healing.

The Church of Jesus Christ (of Latter-day Saints), the scriptures, and its members reject nothing that functions to bring us to healing--life and liberty.  The same rejects anything that leads to death and captivity.

There is, of course, the matter of our weakness, and only being able to receive as fast as we are able.

I like this verse, as, to me, it means which simply have a long ways to go before we understand what is really going on, in any case.

D & C 121:26-32

God shall give unto you knowledge by his Holy Spirit, yea, by the unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost, that has not been revealed since the world was until now; Which our forefathers have awaited with anxious expectation to be revealed in the last times . . . A time to come in the which nothing shall be withheld, whether there be one God or many gods, they shall be manifest. All thrones and dominions, principalities and powers, shall be revealed and set forth upon all who have endured valiantly for the gospel of Jesus Christ. And also, if there be abounds set to the heavens or to the seas, or to the dry land, or to the sun, moon, or stars—All the times of their revolutions, all the appointed days, months, and years, and all the days of their days, months, and years, and all their glories, laws, and set times, shall be revealed in the days of the dispensation of the fulness of times—According to that which was ordained in the midst of the Council of the Eternal God of all other gods before this world was, that should be reserved unto the finishing and the end thereof, when every man shall enter into his eternal presence and into his immortal rest.

For the record, I do not find natural selection compelling, nor do I find a mechanical/physical universe/planet compelling.  I also think some of our science is a big argument about what the 'screen' is made out of and not paying too much attention to what movie is being played on the screen (which is secondary and merely expedient and functional to get the movie across).  Not that we can't figure out the screen, but perhaps a bit more perspective. 

Also, as far as I know, someone correct me if I'm wrong, Jesus spoke within the cosmological idiom of the day--I think a Greek/Jewish mashup--Hades, Paradise, Gehenna, whatnot--and felt that it was sufficient to get his message across.

Regardless of creationism (also I do not find compelling), 'evolution' (big tent, there--we are way beyond Darwin), or some other version--the Message is the same.  Stop shedding blood and destruction of similar kind.  Stop oppressing yourself and one another.

Being a disciple of Jesus Christ, and taking on his covenant (i.e. membership in The Church of Jesus Christ), does not mean we have to wholesale accept anything.  We are to study, ponder, seek guidance and revelation, and engage with the material under our own agency.  So you have set up a false 'either or' question--in my opinion.  You can release yourself and others from the weight of that chain--it's not a thing.😊

[BRMC]

18 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

So man has only been on earth for 7,000 years, and the LDS position is that any evidence of humans before 5,000(ish) BC is either a hoax or falsely dated?

No.  It's what those periods are and what man is that is called into question, in my understanding.

[Hamba Tuhan]

12 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

Explain 

Evolution as a process. Age of the earth. They're not the same issue.

[SouthernMo]

Just now, Hamba Tuhan said:

Evolution as a process. Age of the earth. They're not the same issue.

So if the age of the earth is 7,000 years, we can still believe that dinosaurs evolved into lizards and birds within this 7,000-year period?

[SouthernMo]

41 minutes ago, Calm said:

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Mormonism_and_science/Age_of_the_Earth#Question:_How_do_we_reconcile_the_actual_age_of_the_earth_to_the_.22seven_thousand_years_of_its_continuance.22_mentioned_in_D.26C_77:6.3F

“The Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, (2002) chapter "Section 77 Questions and Answers on the Book of Revelation" states that the seven thousand years "do not include the period of our planet's creation and preparation as a dwelling place for man."”

Thinking about this... wonder why God gave such a clear statement in scripture in 1832 that needed to be clarified 170 years later in a student manual?

Would have thought the revealed word of god would have been superior to a study guide?

Sometimes I just do not understand how this church has ‘doctrine’ that needs occasional revision when science shows it to be wrong?  Maybe D&C 77:6 wasn’t doctrine, but a policy?

[Calm]

34 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

So man has only been on earth for 7,000 years, and the LDS position is that any evidence of humans before 5,000(ish) BC is either a hoax or falsely dated?

Not necessarily, it could be covenant man they are talking about 

 

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

Thinking about this... wonder why God gave such a clear statement in scripture in 1832 that needed to be clarified 170 years later in a student manual?

Would have thought the revealed word of god would have been superior to a study guide?

Sometimes I just do not understand how this church has ‘doctrine’ that needs occasional revision when science shows it to be wrong?  Maybe D&C 77:6 wasn’t doctrine, but a policy?

Joseph Smith himself said the world was millions or billions years old (I can’t remember the precise number, iirc he likely calculated by seeing days of creations as so many years so it was a reasoned belief, not a revelation). So even he didn’t see creation as so straightforward after the 77 revelation. If he didn’t, I see no reason that we have to. 

[Maidservant]

11 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

Maybe D&C 77:6 wasn’t doctrine

Doctrine is what is described in 3 Nephi 11:29-41.

"Doctrine" and "correct statement" are not necessarily the same thing, although there may be overlap. 

There is no way that cosmological statements are EVER doctrine.  They are not 'policy' either, as there is nothing to 'do'.  Those aren't the only two choices. 

D & C 77 is an engagement with another text (Revelation), and its symbolism.  The number 7 and the 7 periods of the earth are highly symbolic.  It is not about 'true' or 'not true', it is about understanding and being blessed by what the symbolism yields (which it may for some, and not for others).  Joseph Smith, of course, was always engaging with the Bible and trying to come to understanding for himself (and changing a lot in the process), much less being able to pass as much as he could along to us.

Doctrine is what leads us to Christ, and to become like Him.

Edited December 10, 2018 by Maidservant

[Anijen]

8 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

So if the age of the earth is 7,000 years, we can still believe that dinosaurs evolved into lizards and birds within this 7,000-year period?

SouthernMo, please be careful in your hastiness to think you know what we believe it makes your posts seem snarky and I am pretty sure you want some sincere answers.

As an active, recommend holding member, I believe the earth is about 4.5 billion years old (perhaps a bit older), yet I also believe in Adam and Eve and Garden of Eden etc. It is my belief that Adam and Eve were made in the Garden of Eden. I believe outside the Garden was a world/earth that has been existing for over 4 billion years. After the Fall, Adam and Eve were shown the exit and was made to live by the sweat of their brow... Hope that helps.

I also do not believe the six "days" of the creative period was a 24 hour time as we know it, but for understanding and importance on Gods work, we have come to know it as a "day" which when gain greater understanding might make more sense.

[Ouagadougou]

1 hour ago, SouthernMo said:

In a few places, I’ve seen that the LDS church has no official views on evolution.

Joseph Smith is supposed to have received revelation in 1832 that the earth is 7,000 years old (D&C 77:6).

How are we to sustain the D&C as true revelation, yet officially reject that teaching?  Are there other scriptural teachings LDS officially reject?

Scientific evidence proves Homo sapiens have been on earth WAY longer than 7,000 years, so, IMO, any belief that the earth is around 7,000 years old or that there was no death before the Fall of Adam is absurd.    

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2018/01/oldest-human-outside-africa-discovered-fossil-jaw-israel-science/

"Part of an upper jaw with teeth found in Israel shows that modern humans ventured out of Africa much earlier than previously thought. The find adds to evidence that our species was overlapping with human relatives such as Neanderthals in the crossroads of the Levant for longer than previously realized.

Until recently, the fossil record suggested that our species, Homo sapiens, first appeared in East Africa around 200,000 years ago. While a larger wave of migration didn’t leave the continent until 50,000 to 60,000 years ago, small numbers of modern humans made forays outside of Africa as far back as 120,000 years ago, based on the known fossils."

[Calm]

For me the 7000 years is more a countdown than count up. 6000+ years ago the earth and its inhabitants were ready to start the preparation of God’s Creation to receive God’s ordinances in full, which will happen in the last 1000 years, the Millenium. I am open to it being ritualized ‘years’ (so not actual 7000 years, but time periods) or literal years (circling the sun), but I think it’s more likely the first  

Adam and Eve were the first to receive these specific covenants and then to teach to their family these ordinances. This is not to suggest that humans prior to Adam were incapable of having a relationship with God any more than the First Vision happening in 1820 means no one was capable of seeing God prior to that vision.  There have may even been other rituals God had given to men to help bring them to him.  I am speaking about a specific set of covenants required to be performed with authority. 

Edited December 10, 2018 by Calm

[rodheadlee]

1 hour ago, Metis_LDS said:

Q. What are we to understand by the book which John saw, which was sealed on the back with seven seals?
    A. We are to understand that it contains the revealed will, mysteries, and the works of God; the hidden things of his economy concerning this earth during the seven thousand years of its continuance, or its temporal existence.
(Doctrine and Covenants 77:6)
 

To me it means that God placed Adam on Earth 7000 years ago. We are Sons and Daughters of Adam and Eve. It doesn't mean no one was here on Earth when God placed them here.

PS it seems like I read somewhere that Joseph Smith thought the world was 4.5 billion years old. Does anybody else have knowledge of this?

Edited December 10, 2018 by rodheadlee

[CV75]

1 hour ago, SouthernMo said:

In a few places, I’ve seen that the LDS church has no official views on evolution.

Joseph Smith is supposed to have received revelation in 1832 that the earth is 7,000 years old (D&C 77:6).

How are we to sustain the D&C as true revelation, yet officially reject that teaching?  Are there other scriptural teachings LDS officially reject?

D&C 77:6 has to do with the temporal existence of the earth in relation to the covenant, which began to be kept about 6,000 years ago, when men began to call upon the name of the Lord (Moses 6:5, 46). The 7,000 of its continuance has to do with its temporal existence, or when mankind began to reckon according to the prophecies (Abraham 5:13; similarly, we now reckon time from the birth of Christ).

[Vanguard]

1 hour ago, SouthernMo said:

In a few places, I’ve seen that the LDS church has no official views on evolution.

Joseph Smith is supposed to have received revelation in 1832 that the earth is 7,000 years old (D&C 77:6).

How are we to sustain the D&C as true revelation, yet officially reject that teaching?  Are there other scriptural teachings LDS officially reject?

How much of a stretch is it to believe the earth underwent a spiritual transformation after eons of development  - a transformation that represented the final preparation for receiving spiritual mankind after eons of his own development? Much as Calm has suggested the beginning of "covenant man[kind]" (the story of Adam & Eve) why couldn't we view a covenant earth in this way? Don't we already believe the earth has a spiritual essence about it? 

[SouthernMo]

1 hour ago, Anijen said:

SouthernMo, please be careful in your hastiness to think you know what we believe it makes your posts seem snarky and I am pretty sure you want some sincere answers.

This is my problem. I don’t know what we Mormons are supposed to believe.  Because my beliefs do not align with scriptures we Mormons sustain, I’m wondering if there is room for my beliefs.

Big tent, but big enough for me?

[SouthernMo]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

D&C 77:6 has to do with the temporal existence of the earth in relation to the covenant, which began to be kept about 6,000 years ago, when men began to call upon the name of the Lord (Moses 6:5, 46). The 7,000 of its continuance has to do with its temporal existence, or when mankind began to reckon according to the prophecies (Abraham 5:13; similarly, we now reckon time from the birth of Christ).

You’re teaching something that is not stated at all in that section. Where are these teachings that you’re claiming coming from?

[SouthernMo]

1 hour ago, Vanguard said:

How much of a stretch is it to believe the earth underwent a spiritual transformation after eons of development  - a transformation that represented the final preparation for receiving spiritual mankind after eons of his own development? Much as Calm has suggested the beginning of "covenant man[kind]" (the story of Adam & Eve) why couldn't we view a covenant earth in this way? Don't we already believe the earth has a spiritual essence about it? 

Could be. But that is not stated in D&C 77.

Where is this doctrine of the earth’s spiritual transformation taught?

I’m sorry, but the easier, more simple answer is that this section is not revelation, and that Joseph Smith was incorrectly espousing common Judeo-Christian beliefs of the time.

Edited December 10, 2018 by SouthernMo

[SouthernMo]

1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

PS it seems like I read somewhere that Joseph Smith thought the world was 4.5 billion years old. Does anybody else have knowledge of this?

If someone has a reference on this, that would be AWESOME. Please share.  If correct, Joseph Smith would have nailed the approximate age of the earth about a hundred years before scientific consensus on this. Many years before radio-carbon dating made this possible.