The Nehor Posted November 28, 2018 Posted November 28, 2018 20 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: From your point of view it shouldn't because I can tell you and you should be able to "feel through the spirit" that this is not the case...just goes off your feelings. CFR that this is my point of view.
Duncan Posted November 28, 2018 Posted November 28, 2018 23 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: You just want to be important and not left out? Ok...you responded back to me as well. Here is your gold star... I responded because you either didn't read my response or you didn't remember me responding so I responded again, welcome to the conversation🤨
Ouagadougou Posted November 28, 2018 Author Posted November 28, 2018 4 minutes ago, The Nehor said: CFR that this is my point of view. "Wrong. The burden of proof is on God as the D&C makes clear with Him claiming that burden himself and He usually works on an individual level. If that method does not work for you that is between you and God. You are screaming at the wrong people." God works on the individual level through the spirit, right? As it says in D&C: 2 Yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart. 3 Now, behold, this is the spirit of revelation; behold, this is the spirit by which Moses brought the children of Israel through the Red Sea on dry ground.
Ouagadougou Posted November 28, 2018 Author Posted November 28, 2018 Just now, Duncan said: I responded because you either didn't read my response or you didn't remember me responding so I responded again, welcome to the conversation🤨 Sorry you feel so left out, bro.
The Nehor Posted November 28, 2018 Posted November 28, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: "Wrong. The burden of proof is on God as the D&C makes clear with Him claiming that burden himself and He usually works on an individual level. If that method does not work for you that is between you and God. You are screaming at the wrong people." God works on the individual level through the spirit, right? As it says in D&C: 2 Yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart. 3 Now, behold, this is the spirit of revelation; behold, this is the spirit by which Moses brought the children of Israel through the Red Sea on dry ground. So where are those warm feelings you denigrate so much? I am not denying that sometimes that is a form of communications but your facile oversimplification of what revelation is is laughably ignorant. Edited November 28, 2018 by The Nehor
Duncan Posted November 28, 2018 Posted November 28, 2018 1 minute ago, The Nehor said: So where are those warm feelings you denigrate so much? I am not denying that sometimes that is a form of communications but your facile oversimplification of what revelation is is laughably ignorant. correction, they are "wam" feelings, kind of like ham 🐖 but wam💥 2
The Nehor Posted November 28, 2018 Posted November 28, 2018 1 minute ago, Duncan said: correction, they are "wam" feelings, kind of like ham 🐖 but wam💥 Wait, so the best way to spread the gospel is by punching people? I wasted two years of my life. 2
Duncan Posted November 28, 2018 Posted November 28, 2018 4 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Wait, so the best way to spread the gospel is by punching people? I wasted two years of my life. ahahhahaha! our friend ooguboogu says so!
Anijen Posted November 28, 2018 Posted November 28, 2018 19 hours ago, Ouagadougou said: Are there any non-LDS (not paid by the church) archeologists who maintain/support the BoM being a historical, ancient text? Well there probably are a few out there. I know of two who started out this way, but they both were baptized so now they don't count because they are now members. Quote ...are there any non-LDS (not paid by the church) egyptologists who accept Joseph Smith's translation of the BoA as legitimate? Perhaps, I do not know of any. Quote Are there any organizations outside the LDS Church that support/maintain the historicity of either the BoM or BoA? Many, but most are ran by members. 1
Ouagadougou Posted November 28, 2018 Author Posted November 28, 2018 17 minutes ago, The Nehor said: So where are those warm feelings you denigrate so much? I am not denying that sometimes that is a form of communications but your facile oversimplification of what revelation is is laughably ignorant. People can believe or feel whatever they want; everyone has different feelings or impressions, but I don't think they translate into truth all the time. For example, some people believed a spaceship was behind a meteor; others that they are reincarnated; some that the earth is flat; and the list goes on and on. You can technically make yourself believe anything if you repeat it enough. This is why Iean more toward the scientific approach.
Anijen Posted November 28, 2018 Posted November 28, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, Ouagadougou said: Maybe I will; At least in the Bible I know that cities like Jerusalem actually exist or existed...you can't claim the same for BoM cities in the Americas like Zarahemla. The church has been searching for evidence going back to the 1950's...and still nothing, IMO. Just an FYI, there is the city of Lamani in Mesoamerica that dates back to the time of the Book of Mormon. It is also one of the few cities names that was not changed. Most mesoamerican cities names were changed after Cortez came. Edited November 28, 2018 by Anijen 4
Anijen Posted November 29, 2018 Posted November 29, 2018 Good: Perhaps a dislike icon is needed, (instead of a heart maybe use a broken heart), IDK. Then when one user accumulates 10 broken hearts the nanobots can come in and wrench him/her out of the thread (even if he/she was the originator of such thread). Better: After ten broken hearts were given, and when a new broken heart is given, then those nanobots can give a shock to the broken heart recipient. Best: Each shock is recorded and we [thread readers] get to watch the little nanobot shock treatment. Pass the Popcorn. Signed Anijen, the easily amused 2
The Nehor Posted November 29, 2018 Posted November 29, 2018 16 minutes ago, Anijen said: Good: Perhaps a dislike icon is needed, (instead of a heart maybe use a broken heart), IDK. Then when one user accumulates 10 broken hearts the nanobots can come in and wrench him/her out of the thread (even if he/she was the originator of such thread). Better: After ten broken hearts were given, and when a new broken heart is given, then those nanobots can give a shock to the broken heart recipient. Best: Each shock is recorded and we [thread readers] get to watch the little nanobot shock treatment. Pass the Popcorn. Signed Anijen, the easily amused This would make the board a dangerous and exciting place. I support this policy. 1
Ouagadougou Posted November 29, 2018 Author Posted November 29, 2018 (edited) 41 minutes ago, Anijen said: Just an FYI, there is the city of Lamani in Mesoamerica that dates back to the time of the Book of Mormon. It is also one of the few cities names that was not changed. Most mesoamerican cities names were changed after Cortez came. It's actually "Lamanai"(from Lama'anayin, "submerged crocodile" in Yucatec Maya). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamanai Lamanai means crocodile in the indigenous Yucatec Maya dialect, so it isn't referring to Laman, IMO. Also, I don't think the timelines can match up either, because this area was already settled well over a thousand years before King "Lamoni" in Alma. Also, they haven't found any chariots or horses to support what is in the BoM, as it says in Alma 18: 10 Now when king Lamoni heard that Ammon was preparing his horses and his chariots he was more astonished, because of the faithfulness of Ammon, saying: Surely there has not been any servant among all my servants that has been so faithful as this man; for even he doth remember all my commandments to execute them. Edited November 29, 2018 by Ouagadougou
Anijen Posted November 29, 2018 Posted November 29, 2018 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: It's actually "Lamanai"(from Lama'anayin, "submerged crocodile" in Yucatec Maya). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamanai Lamanai means crocodile in the indigenous Yucatec Maya dialect, so it isn't referring to Laman, IMO. Also, I don't think the timelines can match up either, because this area was already settled well over a thousand years before King "Lamoni" in Alma. Please use reading skills that are above 5th grade. In my post: I never claimed Lamanai to be a Book of Mormon city, only that it dates back to the time of the Book of Mormon. In my post I never said that the city was named after King Lamoni or any Lamen. However, since you brought it up just perhaps, Laman or King Lamoni were named after a person before them. IOW, it does not have to be a named person in the Book of Mormon Since we are hypothesising how it is not related, lets hypothesize how it might be related. The Jaredites came to the Americas via submerged vessels. Myths have elements of truth usually an origin story and mythologized over time. Perhaps (I'm not saying this happened) the Jaredites coming into the new world and the origin [myth was born] was compared to a submerged crocodile. Thus, the name Lamanai connects not only to an actual BoM name, but also a BoM context. Edited November 29, 2018 by Anijen 3
Anijen Posted November 29, 2018 Posted November 29, 2018 (edited) 49 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: Also, they haven't found any chariots or horses to support what is in the BoM, as it says in Alma 18: 10 Now when king Lamoni heard that Ammon was preparing his horses and his chariots he was more astonished, because of the faithfulness of Ammon, saying: Surely there has not been any servant among all my servants that has been so faithful as this man; for even he doth remember all my commandments to execute them. You keep adding, for example, you ask about a name of a city I tell you a name. You brush off my answer with a smug wikipedia link. Now you try to prove a superior position with the childish "Also, they haven't found any chariots or horses to support what is in the BoM, as it says in Alma 18:" First, I am pretty sure, from all your posting, you would not accept any evidence. A sign, a sign, give me a sign is ringing in my ears. Second, there are evidences. I had many hot wheel and Match Box cars growing up. many of these toys represented cars actual adults could purchase and drive around. There are wheeled cart toys found in Mesoamerica, perhaps they were modeled after an adult wheeled cart. Furthermore a chariot is a vehicle used to transport people. There are art depictions of people being carried (transported) by large men (usually four or six) transporting a person. Could you accept that as chariot? Edited November 29, 2018 by Anijen 4
Anijen Posted November 29, 2018 Posted November 29, 2018 (edited) Just an FYI, there are also similar BofM names in calendars found in Mesoamerica. I am not saying they are related in any way, but they match. There are also names like Kish and a few others. From your perspective there isn't any evidence (that you'll accept) so I probably will not continue. Edited November 29, 2018 by Anijen 2
Anijen Posted November 29, 2018 Posted November 29, 2018 I just can't help myself (somebody stop me). The Hah glyph is Mayan for by the sea. The city of Nephihah is by the sea (see Alma 51) I also like the play on words Nephi uses in the first chapter and verse of Nephi (hint colophon) 2
Calm Posted November 29, 2018 Posted November 29, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Anijen said: I just can't help myself (somebody stop me). I get that way. Gave you a pity point. Edited November 29, 2018 by Calm 1
Maestrophil Posted November 29, 2018 Posted November 29, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Ouagadougou said: You are welcome. I think at least ANY scientific proof is reasonable for people today, but, IMO, I just don't see anything the supports the narrative. And it take pages of discussion to reaffirm that is your position ? 😁. Like I said. Peace be with you and your position. I respect it. It’s just not complicated enough for a discussion imo Edited November 29, 2018 by Maestrophil 1
Ouagadougou Posted November 29, 2018 Author Posted November 29, 2018 3 hours ago, Anijen said: You keep adding, for example, you ask about a name of a city I tell you a name. You brush off my answer with a smug wikipedia link. Now you try to prove a superior position with the childish "Also, they haven't found any chariots or horses to support what is in the BoM, as it says in Alma 18:" First, I am pretty sure, from all your posting, you would not accept any evidence. A sign, a sign, give me a sign is ringing in my ears. Second, there are evidences. I had many hot wheel and Match Box cars growing up. many of these toys represented cars actual adults could purchase and drive around. There are wheeled cart toys found in Mesoamerica, perhaps they were modeled after an adult wheeled cart. Furthermore a chariot is a vehicle used to transport people. There are art depictions of people being carried (transported) by large men (usually four or six) transporting a person. Could you accept that as chariot? No. "The peoples of North and South America did not use wheels for transportation before Christopher Columbus arrived. They made wheeled toys, though." https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjC4MmO4fjeAhWEoYMKHSH4D6oQzPwBegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.newscientist.com%2Farticle%2F2073696-the-wheel-a-new-book-puts-a-basic-technology-in-its-place%2F&psig=AOvVaw1FuGkshz_djdNO37kOlfsf&ust=1543551916307320
Robert F. Smith Posted November 29, 2018 Posted November 29, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, california boy said: I hesitate to get involved in these kinds of discussion. I see little value in tearing down another person's faith. But I will strongly disagree with your argument. Do you remember the excitement over the Dead Sea Scrolls? Do you remember the years of countless scholars pouring over every single fragment of those scrolls for decades all because they were some of the oldest copies of the Old Testament scriptures as well as other significant insights into writings and beliefs thousands of years ago ever to be found? Yes, the Dead Sea Scrolls are very useful, not only because of the variant readings we get for biblical texts, but also because of all the other religious documents among them which tell us what Judaism was actually like in the Intertestamental period. That helps place early Christianity in a living context, which we otherwise simply did not have. Among the smug beliefs overturned by the Scrolls was the false assumption that Christianity invented the messianic interpretation of the Suffering Servant sections of Isaiah. Turns out that this was normal among the Essene community which produced the Scrolls. Quote Now we have a claim that a papyrus WRITTEN BY THE HAND OF ABRAHAM HIMSELF has been discovered. Forget Joseph Smith's claims of being able to translate that papyrus or validating the Book of Abraham. Would not there be just as big of excitement to research such a document by world scholars? Writings by Abraham himself that expand on what the world knows of him and that time period. Yet you don't expect anyone but Mormon scholars to be interested? In all fairness, I don't think non-LDS scholars are ignoring the exploration of these scrolls because of the religious content. They just find no credible evidence that they are what some claim them to be. When and if they actually read those books, we might be at a point in which they might say something substantive pro or con. At least then the criticism is at a high level and worthy of discussion. But we get very little of that. Mostly is non-scholars on both sides expressing apriori opinions not based on any sort of coherent examination. In the case of the Book of Abraham, as I point out in my academic treatment (cited above), the book clearly fits into the same pattern as other pseudepigrapha of that period, such as the Testament of Abraham and the Apocalypse of Abraham, which are authentically from that period and purport to be written by Abraham himself (that's what a pseudepigraphon does!!). The LDS Book of Abraham comes from that same period. So what's not to like? You really ought to read my full discussion. I base it completely on real scholarship. Standard scholarship. No apriori assumptions. No question-begging. No statements of belief or faith. Just scholarship. So what's not to like? Edited November 29, 2018 by Robert F. Smith 1
strappinglad Posted November 29, 2018 Posted November 29, 2018 Sometimes academics can be so obtuse. For centuries no one but NO ONE in Mesoamerica looked at a wheel and could not come up with any other use for it than a child's toy. And the Neanderthals were stupid brutes... until a few years ago.
Ouagadougou Posted November 29, 2018 Author Posted November 29, 2018 3 hours ago, Anijen said: Please use reading skills that are above 5th grade. In my post: I never claimed Lamanai to be a Book of Mormon city, only that it dates back to the time of the Book of Mormon. In my post I never said that the city was named after King Lamoni or any Lamen. However, since you brought it up just perhaps, Laman or King Lamoni were named after a person before them. IOW, it does not have to be a named person in the Book of Mormon Since we are hypothesising how it is not related, lets hypothesize how it might be related. The Jaredites came to the Americas via submerged vessels. Myths have elements of truth usually an origin story and mythologized over time. Perhaps (I'm not saying this happened) the Jaredites coming into the new world and the origin [myth was born] was compared to a submerged crocodile. Thus, the name Lamanai connects not only to an actual BoM name, but also a BoM context. IMO, the Jaredite barge story in Ether is a fairytale and did not happen. I don't believe in submarines during the Bronze Age... http://packham.n4m.org/ships.htm Now let's apply the eye of reason to general animal care: 21. How much does even one goat, sheep or cow eat in a year? These are grazing animal, but they can't graze on the ocean; and they don't eat fish. Their grasses and grains have to be stored on board. A goat eats 2 - 3 pounds/day. Even a pony eats about 8 pounds/day. Let's sensibly use 3 pounds X 344 days. That's 1,032 pounds of feed per animal. That's a lot of bulky weight to lash down to prevent it crashing around when the ships roll, and even flip upside down. 22. How do you fit 1,000 pounds of feed per animal in the small boats, along with people, flocks and herds of animals, and birds? 23. And how about carrying a year's supply of drinking water for each person and animal? They couldn't drink ocean water, and in boats of the type described they couldn't gather significant rain water. How could they load and carry sufficient fresh water? Even the most illiterate people have learned how important ventilation is for food items, especially without refrigeration. People and animals exhale moisture with every breath. The numerous animals couldn't be taken outside to urinate and defecate. Such a year-long, high-moisture, low-ventilation environment breeds bacteria, yeast, fungus and molds, and rots food. 24. So, what about food spoilage? Could it get worse? The voyagers are reported to have sung praises to the Lord day and night. (6:9) 25. How likely does day-and-night singing and praising seem after months of close confinement in small boats with urinating, defecating, flatulent flocks, herds and fowls, with only one air hole per drum-tight boat? Could it get worse? Ether describes heavy seas (" . . . they were many times buried in the depths of the sea, because of the mountain waves which broke upon them" 6:6). So these boats were crashing around under water, occasionally flipping upside down (thus the need for a hole in the bottom which could be opened as an air hole when the boat flopped over). 26. Can you visualize adults, children, flocks and herds, rocking, tossing and flipping over, traveling that way for a year? Could you ride for 344 days and nights with your children on a boat, repeatedly buried in the depths of the sea with flocks and herds crashing over each other, with urine-soaked "litter box" material spilling into their food as the ship flopped upside down? 27. How would you pour all the urine and feces out of one hole -- for a year?
mfbukowski Posted November 29, 2018 Posted November 29, 2018 (edited) 15 hours ago, hope_for_things said: I think one difference is that non-Christian archeologists would agree that parts of the bible contain actual history of real people and places. Well I will give you my standard answer for your standard objection So you are saying that because we have the name of the City of Jerusalem and other historical facts about the locality etc, YOUR SINS ARE REALLY FORGIVEN? What does one have to do with the other? Because there is actual history it proves that a man raised himself from the dead? That's like saying that because London exists, Sherlock Holmes must be a real person and he saved people from being murdered and the world is better for his existence. Not a good argument Edited November 29, 2018 by mfbukowski
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