The Nehor Posted November 20, 2018 Posted November 20, 2018 If life begins at conception then spontaneous miscarriages, especially the 30 to 40% that occur undetected by the mother are one of the greatest health risks known to humanity. Over one in four children are dying without even being noticed by the mother. If life begins at conception this is the greatest cause of death and dwarfs the problem of abortion many times over in terms of how many babies we are losing........yet the “life begins at conception” crowd have done nothing about this crisis. No campaigns for awareness, no foundations to address the problem, no demands for medical study on how to prevent this genocide........ It is almost as if they do not believe life begins at conception except when a human voluntarily terminates the pregnancy and then suddenly it is a human.............why? 1
katherine the great Posted November 20, 2018 Posted November 20, 2018 12 hours ago, The Nehor said: In antiquity slavery may have been the more humane option. You win a war. What do you do with those you captured. There is no one to ransome them, if you release them you are endangering yourself with the potential for another war, if you release them without anything they will probably die......so you make them work for you and keep them alive. Um, no. There's nothing humane about going to war to take away someone else's land and resources in the first place. I really doubt humanity was the primary motivator for slavery. Ever. Now if you win a war in which you are the one being invaded, kill the leaders, round up the lower ranks, disarm them and deport them to Australia. 2
USU78 Posted November 20, 2018 Posted November 20, 2018 On 11/15/2018 at 9:18 AM, smac97 said: I think that the slavery was among the greatest moral sins of our ancestors. Today, one of our greatest moral sins is elective abortion. I think we "should" know that killing babies because they have Down Syndrome, or because they are unanticipated/unplanned/unwanted, or because they are inconvenient, and so on . . . is not okay. It was an agrarian society. Children born into the family were also "a source of labor," and were put to work. Were Native American children treated like adopted children? Or like "slaves?" Or perhaps there was a diversity of such things depending on the individuals involved? Presentism is a toughie. It can be difficult for us to differentiate conduct that is malum in se (bad in and of itself) or malum prohibitum (bad because society/law has decreed it to be bad). Thanks, -Smac My great great aunt and her husband acquired/adopted a Shoshone boy and raised him not quite to adulthood. He did the same kind of chores as the other boys in the family. One day he was herding his father's cattle on horseback up in Mantua valley. He ended up getting pursued and murdered by the occupying army of Johnston for the sin of having a horse and saddle while herding cattle. The family still mourns him. So tell me. Was there slavery involved here? Or oppression? Or adoption coupled with tragedy? 1
Anijen Posted November 20, 2018 Posted November 20, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: If life begins at conception then spontaneous miscarriages, especially the 30 to 40% that occur undetected by the mother are one of the greatest health risks known to humanity. Over one in four children are dying without even being noticed by the mother. The Mayo clinic has spontaneous miscarriage lower at 10% - 20% . However, there is a glaring difference between abortion and miscarriage, one is murder, the other not. Quote If life begins at conception this is the greatest cause of death and dwarfs the problem of abortion many times over in terms of how many babies we are losing........yet the “life begins at conception” crowd have done nothing about this crisis. No campaigns for awareness, no foundations to address the problem, no demands for medical study on how to prevent this genocide........ Again a glaring difference between genocide and spontaneous miscarriage: one is the deliberate killing of a large group of people the other is mostly because a fetus is not developing normally. Although I enjoy good use of hyperbole, your apple/oranges comparisons stretch the scope of credibility. Quote It is almost as if they do not believe life begins at conception No, it is the belief there is life at conception. Is it a right to kill a life form just because it is housed within its host? At what point during a pregnancy do you believe killing a baby within the womb is acceptable? Quote except when a human voluntarily terminates the pregnancy and then suddenly it is a human.............why? Moving the goal posts? The baby within the womb is human regardless if it is killed or if it miscarriages. I never expressed or even implied one is human the other is not. You put words in my mouth (implying the baby is only human when killed when I never implied that at all). After changing the parameters you then ask why. How cunning and clever you are. Chapter 1 Nehor teaches false doctrines, Respectfully Yours Gideon Edited November 20, 2018 by Anijen
The Nehor Posted November 20, 2018 Posted November 20, 2018 8 hours ago, katherine the great said: Um, no. There's nothing humane about going to war to take away someone else's land and resources in the first place. I really doubt humanity was the primary motivator for slavery. Ever. Now if you win a war in which you are the one being invaded, kill the leaders, round up the lower ranks, disarm them and deport them to Australia. I did not mean to suggest war is humane in general. I am also looking at old tribal warfare where sending the losers to Australia was not an option because you have no idea where Australia is, have no idea how to build ships to send people there even if you did, and no resources to build ships if you did know how. I am also not suggesting that humanity was the primary motivator. Just that sometimes it would have appeared to be the most humane option compared to “killing everyone”. I was not intending to justify slavery. It is an evil.
The Nehor Posted November 20, 2018 Posted November 20, 2018 7 hours ago, Anijen said: The Mayo clinic has spontaneous miscarriage lower at 10% - 20% . However, there is a glaring difference between abortion and miscarriage, one is murder, the other not. Again a glaring difference between genocide and spontaneous miscarriage: one is the deliberate killing of a large group of people the other is mostly because a fetus is not developing normally. Although I enjoy good use of hyperbole, your apple/oranges comparisons stretch the scope of credibility. No, it is the belief there is life at conception. Is it a right to kill a life form just because it is housed within its host? At what point during a pregnancy do you believe killing a baby within the womb is acceptable? Moving the goal posts? The baby within the womb is human regardless if it is killed or if it miscarriages. I never expressed or even implied one is human the other is not. You put words in my mouth (implying the baby is only human when killed when I never implied that at all). After changing the parameters you then ask why. How cunning and clever you are. Chapter 1 Nehor teaches false doctrines, Respectfully Yours Gideon I mostly oppose abortion. I am just pointing out the hypocrisy inherent in your strict position. You acknowledge that a spontaneous miscarriage is a death? Then what are you doing to combat this epidemic? Even taking your numbers that means over one in ten babies are dying in the womb. Why are you not encouraging research to find medical techniques to fight this epidemic?
bluebell Posted November 20, 2018 Posted November 20, 2018 10 hours ago, The Nehor said: If life begins at conception then spontaneous miscarriages, especially the 30 to 40% that occur undetected by the mother are one of the greatest health risks known to humanity. Over one in four children are dying without even being noticed by the mother. If life begins at conception this is the greatest cause of death and dwarfs the problem of abortion many times over in terms of how many babies we are losing........yet the “life begins at conception” crowd have done nothing about this crisis. No campaigns for awareness, no foundations to address the problem, no demands for medical study on how to prevent this genocide........ It is almost as if they do not believe life begins at conception except when a human voluntarily terminates the pregnancy and then suddenly it is a human.............why? I think they definitely do believe that life begins at conception, but also believe that if God chooses to take that life before it is born, it's not a tragedy for the child or society. But that abortion is a tragedy. I've never met an atheist that was against abortion which is why I think that God being in control is the main motivator for anti-abortion groups, but maybe there are some out there. 2
The Nehor Posted November 20, 2018 Posted November 20, 2018 2 hours ago, bluebell said: I think they definitely do believe that life begins at conception, but also believe that if God chooses to take that life before it is born, it's not a tragedy for the child or society. But that abortion is a tragedy. I've never met an atheist that was against abortion which is why I think that God being in control is the main motivator for anti-abortion groups, but maybe there are some out there. But that still seems off. People are not this resigned to it being God’s will about childhood illnesses taking lives or cancer or whatever. We use our medicinal tools to fight what kills us. We clearly see spontaneous abortions as less then a baby or a child. It may be more an emotional distinction then a logical one but it is there. In any case the LDS faith does distinguish between abortion and murder. So does the Law of Moses. While both are bad it is clear that in the eyes of church discipline and eligibility for baptism murder is much more severe then abortion. 1
bluebell Posted November 20, 2018 Posted November 20, 2018 14 minutes ago, The Nehor said: But that still seems off. People are not this resigned to it being God’s will about childhood illnesses taking lives or cancer or whatever. We use our medicinal tools to fight what kills us. We clearly see spontaneous abortions as less then a baby or a child. It may be more an emotional distinction then a logical one but it is there. In any case the LDS faith does distinguish between abortion and murder. So does the Law of Moses. While both are bad it is clear that in the eyes of church discipline and eligibility for baptism murder is much more severe then abortion. That's probably because we have some control over seeking treatment for childhood illnesses. No one has control over stopping miscarriages. Many desperate people have tried for decades. There are no medical tools that can fix chromosomal irregularities in eggs and sperm, for example. Like I said, for most of the pro-life crowd, it's a matter of 'The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away, blessed be the name of the Lord.' They see that as a completely different thing than 'the Lord giveth, and Susan taken away.' But no, many many people who experience spontaneous abortion do not see it as less than a baby. It's a traumatic experience of loss that many people never completely heal from. I know people who mourn ever miscarriage, no matter how early, and who mourn their baby's death date for decades after the fact. And yes, I agree the LDS faith does not see abortion as murder (I said that to Mis. earlier in the thread). I don't believe that abortion should be illegal in all cases. But I do believe that it is an extreme answer that is only valid in extreme cases. 3
Anijen Posted November 20, 2018 Posted November 20, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, The Nehor said: I mostly oppose abortion. Today's media would report your stand on abortion this way; that in a minimum since you approve of murder. Quote I am just pointing out the hypocrisy inherent in your strict position. I am saddened when a mother miscarriages, but miscarriages are not the same as a voluntarily taking of a baby's life, as abortion is. There is no hypocrisy! Point out my real hypocrisy or retract preferably with an apology. Quote You acknowledge that a spontaneous miscarriage is a death? Then what are you doing to combat this epidemic? I am doing the same as I do with any death, I mourne it, I mourn with the descendants relatives. I am saddened by it. Yes, death is an epidemic. I bet it happens to everyone at some time. Quote Even taking your numbers that means over one in ten babies are dying in the womb. Not my numbers, these are from the Mayo Clinics website. Still any miscarriage is a sad time for all. Quote Why are you not encouraging research to find medical techniques to fight this epidemic? Why aren't you? Why do you do nothing when people die? Seriously your feeble comparison of miscarriage death to the deliberate killing of a baby is ridiculous. A row boat floats on a pond the same way a ball of iron floats on a pond. The beebee penetrates the tissue paper as easily as a nuclear bomb could. Stepping on a weed does the same amount of damage as stepping on a landmine. Enjoying a long life is as fun as enjoying a extended and painful death My feet, legs, torso, arms extend out of the womb legal to stab me, crush my head and suck my brains out. All of me out of the womb it is murder. Normally between 5 and 6 weeks electrical brain activity occurs, yet I still can be legally killed. Outside the womb an unconscious person cannot be legally killed. In the womb my heart pumps on its own, my own blood, a different blood type than my mother, but for mothers convenience she is allowed to slice me up and have my head crushed and my brain sucked out. Outside the womb my heart needs a pacemaker, my blood need dialisis, I am a universal donor. Thank heavens it is NOT legal to kill me. See, I can make comparisons too, some are bad, some are heartbreaking. Edited November 20, 2018 by Anijen
Anijen Posted November 20, 2018 Posted November 20, 2018 3 hours ago, bluebell said: I think they definitely do believe that life begins at conception, but also believe that if God chooses to take that life before it is born, it's not a tragedy for the child or society. But that abortion is a tragedy. I've never met an atheist that was against abortion which is why I think that God being in control is the main motivator for anti-abortion groups, but maybe there are some out there. Just to be clear. I believe bacteria is a form of life until it dies. I also believe the sperm on its own is a life form, the unfertilized egg are life forms, until they die. I believe life starts at conception. However, I believe, that life, is not yet a human life, but that very life form evolves into a human very quickly, in some/most cases even before the mother knows she is pregnant. By the time a pregnant mother wants to abort her baby, I believe it is killing another human being.
RevTestament Posted November 20, 2018 Posted November 20, 2018 On 11/17/2018 at 12:02 PM, MiserereNobis said: These seem weak excuses to end the life of a completely innocent child who has done nothing. But this would be derailing the thread, so I don't need to continue the discussion Well, you can continue if you want. So, the mother is not innocent? How about her other dependent children? Are they innocent? When it is two lives in the balance why do you force the mother to choose that of her fetus when there is no guarantee it will even live? Can you assume the baby's life is more valuable than the mother's? In the Mosaic law the penalty for harming a mother's unborn child was not death. That strongly implies it was not considered murder punishable by death. This implies God thinks of it differently than you. I don't think the Catholic Church baptizes a stillborn fetus. What is its destiny if it is to be considered the same as a live baby?
bluebell Posted November 20, 2018 Posted November 20, 2018 30 minutes ago, Anijen said: Just to be clear. I believe bacteria is a form of life until it dies. I also believe the sperm on its own is a life form, the unfertilized egg are life forms, until they die. I believe life starts at conception. However, I believe, that life, is not yet a human life, but that very life form evolves into a human very quickly, in some/most cases even before the mother knows she is pregnant. By the time a pregnant mother wants to abort her baby, I believe it is killing another human being. So you disagree with the church’s teachings on abortion? (Asking for the sake of clarification).
RevTestament Posted November 20, 2018 Posted November 20, 2018 12 hours ago, USU78 said: My great great aunt and her husband acquired/adopted a Shoshone boy and raised him not quite to adulthood. He did the same kind of chores as the other boys in the family. One day he was herding his father's cattle on horseback up in Mantua valley. He ended up getting pursued and murdered by the occupying army of Johnston for the sin of having a horse and saddle while herding cattle. The family still mourns him. I was very saddened to read this USU. Under Pres Jackson and subsequently, the United States did some atrocious things to the Natives. I think one would have fared better to be a slave at that point. They also slaughtered probably 100s of thousands of horses and millions of buffalo(to the point of near extinction) in an effort to bring the Natives to their knees. It was a brutal time, and many Natives have not really recovered from it still. It is a great black splotch on the history of the United States.
pogi Posted November 20, 2018 Posted November 20, 2018 (edited) 13 hours ago, USU78 said: My great great aunt and her husband acquired/adopted a Shoshone boy and raised him not quite to adulthood. He did the same kind of chores as the other boys in the family. One day he was herding his father's cattle on horseback up in Mantua valley. He ended up getting pursued and murdered by the occupying army of Johnston for the sin of having a horse and saddle while herding cattle. The family still mourns him. So tell me. Was there slavery involved here? Or oppression? Or adoption coupled with tragedy? I would say that it depends on how he was “acquired”. It sounds more like an adoption in practice, but not all acquisitions were legal and often were completely immoral. Edited November 20, 2018 by pogi 1
katherine the great Posted November 20, 2018 Posted November 20, 2018 54 minutes ago, Anijen said: Just to be clear. I believe bacteria is a form of life until it dies. I also believe the sperm on its own is a life form, the unfertilized egg are life forms, until they die. I believe life starts at conception. I think everyone accepts bacteria as life forms. They are single celled organisms and are autonomous. Sperm and ovum are not because they only have half of the genetic material to produce life. I guess we could refer to them as "half lives". 3
The Nehor Posted November 20, 2018 Posted November 20, 2018 2 hours ago, bluebell said: That's probably because we have some control over seeking treatment for childhood illnesses. No one has control over stopping miscarriages. Many desperate people have tried for decades. There are no medical tools that can fix chromosomal irregularities in eggs and sperm, for example. Like I said, for most of the pro-life crowd, it's a matter of 'The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away, blessed be the name of the Lord.' They see that as a completely different thing than 'the Lord giveth, and Susan taken away.' But no, many many people who experience spontaneous abortion do not see it as less than a baby. It's a traumatic experience of loss that many people never completely heal from. I know people who mourn ever miscarriage, no matter how early, and who mourn their baby's death date for decades after the fact. And yes, I agree the LDS faith does not see abortion as murder (I said that to Mis. earlier in the thread). I don't believe that abortion should be illegal in all cases. But I do believe that it is an extreme answer that is only valid in extreme cases. Spontaneous miscarriages often occur undetected without the mother even realizing they are ever pregnant. When the mother knows she is pregnant then yes.....it is often traumatic. With the undetected ones no one is acting on these miscarriages or seems to care.
The Nehor Posted November 20, 2018 Posted November 20, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Anijen said: Today's media would report your stand on abortion this way; that in a minimum since you approve of murder. I am saddened when a mother miscarriages, but miscarriages are not the same as a voluntarily taking of a baby's life, as abortion is. There is no hypocrisy! Point out my real hypocrisy or retract preferably with an apology. I am doing the same as I do with any death, I mourne it, I mourn with the descendants relatives. I am saddened by it. Yes, death is an epidemic. I bet it happens to everyone at some time. Not my numbers, these are from the Mayo Clinics website. Still any miscarriage is a sad time for all. Why aren't you? Why do you do nothing when people die? Seriously your feeble comparison of miscarriage death to the deliberate killing of a baby is ridiculous. A row boat floats on a pond the same way a ball of iron floats on a pond. The beebee penetrates the tissue paper as easily as a nuclear bomb could. Stepping on a weed does the same amount of damage as stepping on a landmine. Enjoying a long life is as fun as enjoying a extended and painful death My feet, legs, torso, arms extend out of the womb legal to stab me, crush my head and suck my brains out. All of me out of the womb it is murder. Normally between 5 and 6 weeks electrical brain activity occurs, yet I still can be legally killed. Outside the womb an unconscious person cannot be legally killed. In the womb my heart pumps on its own, my own blood, a different blood type than my mother, but for mothers convenience she is allowed to slice me up and have my head crushed and my brain sucked out. Outside the womb my heart needs a pacemaker, my blood need dialisis, I am a universal donor. Thank heavens it is NOT legal to kill me. See, I can make comparisons too, some are bad, some are heartbreaking. You want to hold on to calling me a murderer but expect me to abjectly apologize for calling you a hypocrite. No! You hypocrite! Of course an abortion is different then a miscarriage (I never said otherwise) but your equivalence of abortion to murder of a human life means a miscarriage is the death of a human life. Yet.........none of the anti-abortion crowd acts like it. Why is it not treated like polio or smallpox which cause far fewer human deaths with a desperate search for a cure? Where are the fundraising events? The scary posters about the death toll with a call for funding and donations? Why are antiabortion congresspeople not voting government funding to stop this epidemic? Answer: they do not think the spontaneous miscarriage of a recently fertilized egg is the equivalent of a child dying of polio. Yet they still want to call abortion murder. Why? Why do I not contribute to stop early spontaneous miscarriages of fertilized eggs? Simple. I do not believe a spirit child of my God and Father lost a chance at mortality because of it. If you believe that life begins at conception then it follows that you do believe your brothers and sisters are dying en made. You do not act like it......why? And stop trying to paint me as a hypocrite by assuming I share your beliefs. I do not. That being said I dislike abortion. I wish it were never needed. Do I think it should be illegal? No. Edited November 20, 2018 by The Nehor
bluebell Posted November 20, 2018 Posted November 20, 2018 18 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Spontaneous miscarriages often occur undetected without the mother even realizing they are ever pregnant. When the mother knows she is pregnant then yes.....it is often traumatic. With the undetected ones no one is acting on these miscarriages or seems to care. Well it wouldn't make sense for someone to act on or care about something that they had no knowledge of. They don't happen to everyone, so how would a woman know whether or not she should care? And like I said before, even if she does care, there isn't a thing she can do about it. We can't science away death.
The Nehor Posted November 20, 2018 Posted November 20, 2018 Just now, bluebell said: Well it wouldn't make sense for someone to act on or care about something that they had no knowledge of. They don't happen to everyone, so how would a woman know whether or not she should care? And like I said before, even if she does care, there isn't a thing she can do about it. We can't science away death. I do not expect them to care or even realize it. But if those ejected fertilized eggs are or were the spirit children of the Father it is a tragedy. A human died. We do not know if we could do anything about it. Most people do not even know about it. Those who do don’t care. If those are people dying wouldn’t it be worth looking into whether we can do something about it? Note that I am not necessarily imputing the “life begins at conception” paradigm to you. I am saying that those who do hold to that paradigm should be very interested in doing something.....anything.....to prevent this from continuing.
USU78 Posted November 20, 2018 Posted November 20, 2018 57 minutes ago, pogi said: I would say that it depends on how he was “acquired”. It sounds more like an adoption in practice, but not all acquisitions were legal and often were completely immoral. Perhaps. My point, of course, is that nobody knows anything about the people, the actual individual people, represented by each datum in a study. It is monstrously unfair to impute motives and apply overwrought labels to those actual people. And needlessly cruel to their decendents. Not to mention malignantly provocative. 1
bluebell Posted November 20, 2018 Posted November 20, 2018 Quote Note that I am not necessarily imputing the “life begins at conception” paradigm to you. I am saying that those who do hold to that paradigm should be very interested in doing something.....anything.....to prevent this from continuing. I don't agree with those people that life begins at conception (because like you said, it just doesn't make sense when we consider the billions that have been miscarried spontaneously), but I think it makes sense to see that from their perspective, given all that science has been trying to do (and they've been doing a lot), they simply believe that there isn't anything that can be done to prevent some fertilized eggs from dying. In other words, they are not protesting that a life has ended. They protest that a person has chosen to end that life.
The Nehor Posted November 20, 2018 Posted November 20, 2018 3 minutes ago, bluebell said: I don't agree with those people that life begins at conception (because like you said, it just doesn't make sense when we consider the billions that have been miscarried spontaneously), but I think it makes sense to see that from their perspective, given all that science has been trying to do (and they've been doing a lot), they simply believe that there isn't anything that can be done to prevent some fertilized eggs from dying. In other words, they are not protesting that a life has ended. They protest that a person has chosen to end that life. We do not have a way to cure cancer either but we still look for one. Compare the funding going to that to that designated for saving fertilized eggs doomed to never grow. It is clear which life we value more.
bluebell Posted November 20, 2018 Posted November 20, 2018 9 minutes ago, The Nehor said: We do not have a way to cure cancer either but we still look for one. Compare the funding going to that to that designated for saving fertilized eggs doomed to never grow. It is clear which life we value more. And scientists are still looking for a way to stop miscarriages. The funding parity is probably largely due to the number of scientists that don't believe life begins at conception.
The Nehor Posted November 20, 2018 Posted November 20, 2018 8 minutes ago, bluebell said: And scientists are still looking for a way to stop miscarriages. The funding parity is probably largely due to the number of scientists that don't believe life begins at conception. They are but they are mostly looking at late term miscarriages.
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