pogi Posted November 20, 2018 Posted November 20, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, USU78 said: Perhaps. My point, of course, is that nobody knows anything about the people, the actual individual people, represented by each datum in a study. It is monstrously unfair to impute motives and apply overwrought labels to those actual people. And needlessly cruel to their decendents. Not to mention malignantly provocative. It gets messy for sure. I agree that without any information we cannot judge motive, but in many cases we don know the motive. We know that many individuals thought that they were "saving" these children from being "degraded" - they were "civilizing" them. Some just wanted a child, and others were doing it to convert them to Mormonism. Where we do know the reasons and the means of acquisition, I think we can and should make judgments in order to prevent humanity from regressing into immoral acts in the future. While we can't judge their conscience, we certainly can use our own conscience to judge their actions. When we judge the actions of our ancestors, we need to consider the holistic picture. I understand the hesitancy to judge our ancestors, but to not do so would be "needlessly cruel" and "malignantly provocative" to the descendants of the families who had their beloved children stolen from their arms to be sold to a more "civilized" people. Can you imagine!? I think of my 2 year old son being taken from me and sold to a more "civilized" people... Nope, I can't go there. What of that family? What of those descendants? What of that injustice? What of that immorality? Should we allow these injustices to be looked over because they were culturally acceptable at the time? Or should we say, no! That was wrong! Never again! Edited November 20, 2018 by pogi 1
katherine the great Posted November 20, 2018 Posted November 20, 2018 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: They are but they are mostly looking at late term miscarriages. Makes sense since early miscarriages are often due to unviable embryos. So many things can go wrong during meiosis and early development. 1
bluebell Posted November 20, 2018 Posted November 20, 2018 3 minutes ago, The Nehor said: They are but they are mostly looking at late term miscarriages. Looking at the research (l linked to a few that I found on the first couple of pages of google. I didn't look beyond that), it appears that science is studying miscarriages in general (late term miscarriages are those that happen between 14 and 24 weeks, is that what you mean when you use the term?). https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/research/heroes/miscarriage-research.aspx https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3699442/ https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/7/8/e016571 https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/08/170809073226.htm For those miscarriages that happen before women know, the latest study seems to show that it is inevitable and that there is nothing that can be done about it. this is from a scientific paper from August of this year- "It's a finding that suggests two things. Firstly, that miscarriage is "the predominant outcome of fertilisation" and "a natural and inevitable part of human reproduction at all ages," Like KtG said, there's nothing science can do about chromosome problems. 1
USU78 Posted November 21, 2018 Posted November 21, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, pogi said: It gets messy for sure. I agree that without any information we cannot judge motive, but in many cases we don know the motive. We know that many individuals thought that they were "saving" these children from being "degraded" - they were "civilizing" them. Some just wanted a child, and others were doing it to convert them to Mormonism. Where we do know the reasons and the means of acquisition, I think we can and should make judgments in order to prevent humanity from regressing into immoral acts in the future. While we can't judge their conscience, we certainly can use our own conscience to judge their actions. When we judge the actions of our ancestors, we need to consider the holistic picture. I understand the hesitancy to judge our ancestors, but to not do so would be "needlessly cruel" and "malignantly provocative" to the descendants of the families who had their beloved children stolen from their arms to be sold to a more "civilized" people. Can you imagine!? I think of my 2 year old son being taken from me and sold to a more "civilized" people... Nope, I can't go there. What of that family? What of those descendants? What of that injustice? What of that immorality? Should we allow these injustices to be looked over because they were culturally acceptable at the time? Or should we say, no! That was wrong! Never again! Your presentist snobbery and sneering judgmentalism vis a vis people whose jockstraps neither of us is worthy to carry is noted. No we do not know and cannot know these folks' hearts. The arrogance of thinking you can! Edited November 21, 2018 by USU78
The Nehor Posted November 21, 2018 Posted November 21, 2018 4 hours ago, bluebell said: Looking at the research (l linked to a few that I found on the first couple of pages of google. I didn't look beyond that), it appears that science is studying miscarriages in general (late term miscarriages are those that happen between 14 and 24 weeks, is that what you mean when you use the term?). https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/research/heroes/miscarriage-research.aspx https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3699442/ https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/7/8/e016571 https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/08/170809073226.htm For those miscarriages that happen before women know, the latest study seems to show that it is inevitable and that there is nothing that can be done about it. this is from a scientific paper from August of this year- "It's a finding that suggests two things. Firstly, that miscarriage is "the predominant outcome of fertilisation" and "a natural and inevitable part of human reproduction at all ages," Like KtG said, there's nothing science can do about chromosome problems. But that is just plain defeatism....... I actually agree with you though that there is no point in doing anything about it. I just think other people logically have to. And if they put their minds to it I am sure they can come up with something. Absolute and universal celibacy would, for instance, solve the problem.
The Nehor Posted November 21, 2018 Posted November 21, 2018 19 minutes ago, USU78 said: Your presentist snobbery and sneering judgmentalism vis a vis people whose jockstraps neither of us is worthy to carry is noted. No we do not know and cannot know these folks' hearts. The arrogance of thinking you can! I don’t think they had jockstraps back then. Now who is using presentism? 4
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