Abulafia Posted October 16, 2018 Posted October 16, 2018 57 minutes ago, provoman said: Could you explain what Church discipline has to do with anything? The Dr at the Primary Care Hospital confirmed the children had been sexually abused. The Perpetrator was diagnosed as a paedophile. The perpetrator allegedly admitted to abusing the children. You don't think he deserved some form of church discipline?
provoman Posted October 16, 2018 Posted October 16, 2018 5 minutes ago, Abulafia said: The Dr at the Primary Care Hospital confirmed the children had been sexually abused. The Perpetrator was diagnosed as a paedophile. The perpetrator allegedly admitted to abusing the children. You don't think he deserved some form of church discipline? Is that your explanation what Church Disciplibe has to do with anything?
Popular Post cinepro Posted October 16, 2018 Popular Post Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) 14 hours ago, Tacenda said: I've been trying to follow this thread, but may have missed it. Is there any evidence that the Miles were involved, it doesn't appear to be the case. But it's bad enough these poor children were abused so horrifically. No, there is no evidence that the Miles (or the teenagers) were involved. Once the kids were interviewed by a therapist that believed there were hidden rings of group child abuse in the area, and that they could discover where those rings were by interviewing the children, all bets are off. The only crime the Miles likely committed was happening to live in a neighborhood with children that got taken to the wrong therapist. And in Utah in the 1980s, that was enough to get you put in jail. Unless the children were claiming abuse before they met with the therapist or there was corroborating evidence, it's more likely that the accusations are a result of Barbara Snow's (and others) manipulating interview techniques. The only physical evidence would seem to indicate that Bill Carstensen was molesting his kids. Any claims that anyone else was involved are highly suspect and should not be believed without further corroboration. And I do not consider Marion Smith to be a reliable historian. Edited October 16, 2018 by cinepro 7
Abulafia Posted October 16, 2018 Posted October 16, 2018 2 hours ago, provoman said: Is that your explanation what Church Disciplibe has to do with anything? Absolutely.
Abulafia Posted October 16, 2018 Posted October 16, 2018 "Unless the children were claiming abuse before they met with the therapist or there was corroborating evidence, it's more likely that the accusations are a result of Barbara Snow's (and others) manipulating interview techniques." No. Jane Doe 1 told her Mother first. 1
provoman Posted October 16, 2018 Posted October 16, 2018 10 minutes ago, Abulafia said: Absolutely. So not relevant to the lawsuit at hand.
cinepro Posted October 16, 2018 Posted October 16, 2018 16 minutes ago, Abulafia said: "Unless the children were claiming abuse before they met with the therapist or there was corroborating evidence, it's more likely that the accusations are a result of Barbara Snow's (and others) manipulating interview techniques." No. Jane Doe 1 told her Mother first. What, exactly, did JD1 tell her Mother?
Abulafia Posted October 16, 2018 Posted October 16, 2018 7 minutes ago, cinepro said: What, exactly, did JD1 tell her Mother? There are two witnesses. JD1 and Mother 1. Marion Smith merely recounts the events. See the suit.
katherine the great Posted October 16, 2018 Posted October 16, 2018 31 minutes ago, Abulafia said: "Unless the children were claiming abuse before they met with the therapist or there was corroborating evidence, it's more likely that the accusations are a result of Barbara Snow's (and others) manipulating interview techniques." No. Jane Doe 1 told her Mother first. Which timeline are looking at? According to Marion Smith, the child told her mother about the Miles after they already were in psychotherapy. First the babysitters were accused, then the Miles and then the father. 3
SeekingUnderstanding Posted October 16, 2018 Posted October 16, 2018 3 hours ago, Calm said: Do you think it appropriate for Catholics, including those who self identify as such, to interrupt/hijack others' Catholic worship services to protest past abuses? Orthodox? Any form of Judaism or Islam? Any form of Baptist? Etc. etc.? Me personally? Based on my lived experience, I find it wholly inappropriate. Others might have a different opinion based on their lived experience. I don’t think that a difference of opinion automatically equals bad faith. I think we are way too quick to judge others in this regard. I personally feel it is much better to condemn the bad behavior, vs labeling the person (acting in bad faith, decieved by satan etc). My personal experience based on reading SMAC is that he is very quick to condemn any church critic as acting in bad faith and my post was merely pointing this out. 1
cinepro Posted October 16, 2018 Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) 40 minutes ago, katherine the great said: Which timeline are looking at? According to Marion Smith, the child told her mother about the Miles after they already were in psychotherapy. First the babysitters were accused, then the Miles and then the father. Exactly. On page 5, paragraph C of the suit, it says: Quote 15. In January of 1986, the mother of JANE DOE 1, JANE DOE 2, and JOHN DOE 1 (herinafter "MOTHER 1") heard from a neighbor that the neighbor's children were being sexually abused. As a precaution, she took JANE DOE 1 to the Intermountain Sexual Abuse Treatment Center (ISAT) to engage in counseling sessions. At these sessions, JANE DOE 1 disclosed that she had been abused by the 16-year-old babysitter and two unknown teenage boys. 16. Shortly thereafter, JANE DOE 1 identified to MOTHER 1 that (the Miles) sexually assaulted children at so called "touching parties." It would be funny if it wasn't so tragic. "As a precaution, she took JANE DOE 1 to a group of therapists that would become infamous for their ability to get kids to say stuff happened that didn't." 😦 Edited October 16, 2018 by cinepro 4
Abulafia Posted October 16, 2018 Posted October 16, 2018 That's right Cinepro. She disclosed to the mother, not to Barbara Snow. As far as Snow was concerned at that stage, the only perpetrators were the teenage babysitters.
cinepro Posted October 16, 2018 Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Abulafia said: That's right Cinepro. She disclosed to the mother, not to Barbara Snow. As far as Snow was concerned at that stage, the only perpetrators were the teenage babysitters. Really? Do you have her notes from the counseling session showing what was said to the children? Now might be a good time to do a "calibration" to see how we're judging the situation. This is how Marion Smith describes one of the initial counseling sessions, and what was discovered: Quote A few months later in January of 1986, Janice, a baby tender used by both our daughters, was implicated by a child victim in the Bullock case. Our daughter Eileen and her husband Bill Carstensen were told by me about the allegations regarding Janice. Bill insisted his children be interviewed and made an appointment at ISAT with Dr. Barbara Snow. He told Barbara, “Ask Tricia (then age five). She’ll tell.” Barbara found no problems with Susan (Eileen’s oldest child, recently turned eight) or Tricia. Susan had completed psychological tests with a school psychologist two months earlier in connection with consideration of skipping a school grade. The psychologist found Susan to be, “a very healthy child with no significant problems.” Barbara told Eileen the kids seemed fine, but on hearing more about the baby tender, she re-interviewed the children for another two hours. Susan finally volunteered, “Sometimes when we’re asleep Janice comes in and puts crayons up us.” All the children in both families had appeared to be very fond of Janice. Our other daughter’s little girls corroborated their cousins’ stories about things put up their bottoms. Marion Smith, Page 6 Okay, for those that think there's a chance the Miles might be guilty, does anything from that paragraph jump out at you? Are there any red flags, or clues that make you say "wait a second, this part is very, very concerning"? Edited October 16, 2018 by cinepro 2
kllindley Posted October 16, 2018 Posted October 16, 2018 6 minutes ago, Abulafia said: That's right Cinepro. She disclosed to the mother, not to Barbara Snow. As far as Snow was concerned at that stage, the only perpetrators were the teenage babysitters. Edited for tone: REedited: Try again: Last attempt: I don't think there is any way to adequately express the professional embarrassment this case is to mental health care. There are so many glaring ethical and professional violations int he way that this case was handled. It is a good thing that it never went to trial. It is a shame that these individual's parents, grandparents, and trusted professionals so gravely inflicted this level of abuse and torment on these children. The professionals here (Marion Smith and Barbara Snow especially, but also the Hospital staff) need to be held accountable for the damage they have done. Final paragraph removed. I don't know how to say what I'm thinking without being insulting. 2
cinepro Posted October 16, 2018 Posted October 16, 2018 2 minutes ago, kllindley said: It is a good thing that it never went to trial. Don't count your chickens before they've hatched. Apparently, that still might happen.
kllindley Posted October 16, 2018 Posted October 16, 2018 2 minutes ago, cinepro said: Don't count your chickens before they've hatched. Apparently, that still might happen. At least if it does at this point, the individuals are adults. I can't imagine the damage that would have been done to the children if an over-zealous prosecutor had tried to make this case 30 years ago. Not that it would be remotely a good thing for it to happen at this point for anyone but Craig Vernon. That some people are so easily convinced of any accused person's guilt is a scary indictment of our social intelligence. 1
Abulafia Posted October 16, 2018 Posted October 16, 2018 1 hour ago, kllindley said: At least if it does at this point, the individuals are adults. I can't imagine the damage that would have been done to the children if an over-zealous prosecutor had tried to make this case 30 years ago. Not that it would be remotely a good thing for it to happen at this point for anyone but Craig Vernon. That some people are so easily convinced of any accused person's guilt is a scary indictment of our social intelligence. If it gets to a court, the court will decide. Again, I (personally) have no idea if the Miles are innocent or guilty. Do I think the father abused his kids, and his step-kids? Yep. I do. And he in turn was allegedly sexually abused himself.
Abulafia Posted October 16, 2018 Posted October 16, 2018 Again, what puzzles me is that the evidence for the father's abuse seems so strong that I cannot understand why Hadfield and Bullock were prosecuted and he was not.
Abulafia Posted October 16, 2018 Posted October 16, 2018 1 hour ago, kllindley said: Edited for tone: REedited: Try again: Last attempt: I don't think there is any way to adequately express the professional embarrassment this case is to mental health care. There are so many glaring ethical and professional violations int he way that this case was handled. It is a good thing that it never went to trial. It is a shame that these individual's parents, grandparents, and trusted professionals so gravely inflicted this level of abuse and torment on these children. The professionals here (Marion Smith and Barbara Snow especially, but also the Hospital staff) need to be held accountable for the damage they have done. Final paragraph removed. I don't know how to say what I'm thinking without being insulting. Evidence please. Lots of accusations here. I assume you are a social worker/therapist/expert in Child abuse?
katherine the great Posted October 16, 2018 Posted October 16, 2018 2 minutes ago, Abulafia said: Again, what puzzles me is that the evidence for the father's abuse seems so strong that I cannot understand why Hadfield and Bullock were prosecuted and he was not. Its a mystery.
katherine the great Posted October 16, 2018 Posted October 16, 2018 5 minutes ago, Abulafia said: Again, I (personally) have no idea if the Miles are innocent or guilty. I have a strong idea that they are completely innocent. 2
Calm Posted October 16, 2018 Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Abulafia said: Again, what puzzles me is that the evidence for the father's abuse seems so strong that I cannot understand why Hadfield and Bullock were prosecuted and he was not. Maybe the evidence isn’t as strong as you think for the first family. Maybe the prosecutor questioned the medical doctor and asked if there were possibilities the results were not caused by abuse and the doctors said it was possible. This would not get reported but if all they had was doctors’ evidence as the kids were known not to be testifying, it makes sense it wasn’t prosecuted where the others were because kids testified. Edited October 16, 2018 by Calm
Calm Posted October 16, 2018 Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) Interesting article on medical exams. Current standards are likely stricter than 30 years ago https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4215093/ https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1083318817305429 (pictures...clinical, but giving warning for those who don’t do visuals) Edited October 16, 2018 by Calm
Abulafia Posted October 16, 2018 Posted October 16, 2018 Calm, I've been working on the timeline. The Dr was named and I assume, if still alive, could be recalled. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xA2b4pwWuHWc2G2cXLVlJb8vMfbBnuFYGP2TzDzN1TI/edit?usp=sharing
Abulafia Posted October 16, 2018 Posted October 16, 2018 1986 April – at request of police Dr at Primary hospital confirmed all 4 children of Mother 1 had been sexually abused. Mother 1s children were taken to Dr. Martin Palmer at Primary Hospital for verificationof the abuse and to assess medical harm. Dr, Palmer found no question of their abuse.[ https://archive.org/details/ABlipHereAndABlipThere p14]
Recommended Posts