The Cross and Religious Symbols

[RevTestament]

2 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

As I said before, this is an interesting take since there is a fervent push by LDS to be included in the greater Christian family, yet this is an admission of wanting a separate identity.

Well, it comes from over 40 years of watching general conferences and listening to priesthood lessons. As JAHS readily shows, it is a real thing in the Church. I don't particularly like it, but I am currently somewhat powerless to change it... I guess it comes from a history of being excluded from "Christianity" so creating another identity to rally around. Like I said I understand it, but I would like to see some changes in this regard.

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This makes a lot of sense to me. Perhaps breaking down those constructs would make it easier for fellow Christians to accept you in fellowship. But erecting these constructs and then complaining when Christians claim you are not Christian seems to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Yes, I agree to some extent. All I can really do is my little part. I think the Church is slowly beginning to change a little, and I'm glad Pres. Nelson is emphasizing this more, after the issue essentially fell silent under Pres Monson. I do not really wish to offend that portion of the Church that is "proud" of being Mormon. It is just not me. 

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

Right. Although I don't know if everyone would agree with me.  And it's not a small distinction. There are some major differences in how we comprehend the nature of God.
Christian is a noun describing all those who's doctrines are based on the Bible and Nicene and Athanasian creeds. 
On the other hand "christian" is more of an adjective, describing a faith that basis its beliefs on Christ as taught in the Bible. Mormons are not Chrstians, but Mormons are christian. 

I'm sure you know that "Christian" came about in Antioch. Before that followers called themselves The Way. This was several hundred years before creeds. I feel I am an authentic follower of Christ, so I consider myself a Christian with a capital C. I don't think I need to believe any creeds to call myself Christian. I also believe the Lord considers the term to be broader than just those who are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of LDS. He seems to think there have been saints through the ages. The reason the creeds became a measure of Christianity is because the creeds themselves made it anathema to disagree with them, so for millennia they became a measure of whether one was a "church member." And some Christians still do this. 

[Calm]

3 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Thanks for your response. I think I had a knee-jerk reaction that was overblown. One of those days, I suppose. As I said in my OP, I can easily honor a Christian faith of someone who does not use the cross as part of their tradition. I guess I got defensive feeling like the use of the cross was being looked down upon as something like a substitute for real faith.

Out of curiosity, is it offensive to classify one’s cross as jewelry?  Is that seen as trivializing?  I wondered when I saw it used and thought how some Saints might be uncomfortable with or offended by some of the terms for garments that ignore their religious significance while still being technically correct, but it hadn’t come up before for me and not sure how Iwould research it. 

[Calm]

3 hours ago, JAHS said:

The LDS church does not want to be seen as part of the overall Christian (capital C) faith, although they do want to be considered friends and fellow followers of Christ along with all Christians.
They do want people recognize that the church is christian(little c), because we do worship Christ and see Him as our God, Lord, and Savior.

I would say the Church wants to be seen as part of Christianity, but unique/peculiar as far as to larger or smaller denomination, not Protestant, not Catholic, not Evangelical, not Orthodox, etc

[Calm]

2 hours ago, JAHS said:

Right. Although I don't know if everyone would agree with me.  And it's not a small distinction. There are some major differences in how we comprehend the nature of God.
Christian is a noun describing all those who's doctrines are based on the Bible and Nicene and Athanasian creeds. 
On the other hand "christian" is more of an adjective, describing a faith that basis its beliefs on Christ as taught in the Bible. Mormons are not Chrstians, but Mormons are christian. 

I suspect very few would agree actually. Most Saints I know assume “Christian” means the same as “christian” and don’t assume it applies to only a limited group of Christians that have the Nicene creed, etc. I have seen many point out when someone uses the term “Christian”, they mean nonLDS Christians and that is offensive not to make that distinction. 

Edited September 8, 2018 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Again, just to emphasize, I'm not just talking about wearing a cross. I don't wear a cross. I'm talking about using the symbol of Christianity.

And c'mon, you have to know that your "rewrite" would be offensive, yes?

Just to be clear.....I respect anyone who uses the cross as a sincere expression of faith and not just jewelry. I wrote my offending comment after doing an image search for “cross as bling” and “celebrities wearing crosses.” I hope you would agree some of that borders on sacrilege. 

Edited September 8, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Out of curiosity, is it offensive to classify one’s cross as jewelry?  Is that seen as trivializing?  I wondered when I saw it used and thought how some Saints might be uncomfortable with or offended by some of the terms for garments that ignore their religious significance while still being technically correct, but it hadn’t come up before for me and not sure how Iwould research it. 

An image search for celebrities wearing crosses and bling crosses is interesting.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Jane_Doe]

3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

We could also use the "fish" icon, so pregnant with  meaning (Ichthys -- Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior"):

For some, that is the primary symbol of Christianity.  I have no problem with that or the Cross.  Mormons use neither, perhaps to distinguish themselves from all the rest.  Mormons take other symbols far more seriously perhaps because that is part of their liturgy and culture.  You are reading more into that than it deserves.

I actually really like the fish symbol.  Not so much the Greek in ones like this (cause Greek makes my head hurt), but I do like the fish icon itself very much so.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Jane_Doe

[MiserereNobis]

8 hours ago, Calm said:

Out of curiosity, is it offensive to classify one’s cross as jewelry?  Is that seen as trivializing?  I wondered when I saw it used and thought how some Saints might be uncomfortable with or offended by some of the terms for garments that ignore their religious significance while still being technically correct, but it hadn’t come up before for me and not sure how Iwould research it. 

I personally think so, but many people do use it as jewelry.

[MiserereNobis]

7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

An image search for celebrities wearing crosses and bling crosses is interesting.

I think that is what you were going for with your rewrite, right? If so, I agree whole-heartedly. Bling crosses are appropriating a sacred symbol and turning it into the opposite of what it represents. I'm sure God is not pleased.

[JAHS]

8 hours ago, Calm said:

I suspect very few would agree actually. Most Saints I know assume “Christian” means the same as “christian” and don’t assume it applies to only a limited group of Christians that have the Nicene creed, etc. I have seen many point out when someone uses the term “Christian”, they mean nonLDS Christians and that is offensive not to make that distinction. 

You're right about that. Most saints don't make a distinction with the word Christian, but nonLDS Christians do and always will so we will always be in a position where we will have to explain how we are different but still christian.
Saying we are christian but not Christian is how I resolve it in my own mind at least even though we do believe that we are the "real" Christians living in this latter day and the others are the christians.
 

Edited September 8, 2018 by JAHS

[Calm]

Miserere, you are a nonLDS Christian, correct?  Do you make a distinction between Christian and christian?

[Calm]

25 minutes ago, JAHS said:

nonLDS Christians do and always will.
 

I am not finding anything on google that indicates nonLDS Christians typically use "Christian" vs. "christian" to differentiate different faith systems, rather they use Christian and nonChristian and "christian" is not used as a substitute in some cases of the latter that I can see.  So I would appreciate a CFR showing at least one mainstream Christian group using this and if that is not available a few individuals using it, would be sufficient for my curiosity.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Calm

[Calm]

33 minutes ago, JAHS said:

You're right about that. Most saints don't make a distinction with the word Christian, but nonLDS Christians do and always will so we will always be in a position where we will have to explain how we are different but still christian.
Saying we are christian but not Christian is how I resolve it in my own mind at least even though we do believe that we are the "real" Christians living in this latter day and the others are the christians.
 

Except one definition of small case christian contradicts your definition:

https://www.allwords.com/word-small+c+christian.html

Person who leads what could be described as a Christian life, but without acknowledging Jesus Christ as their religious leader.

This also uses lowercase christian to refer to a generic goodness rather than faith:

http://www.quakerranter.org/going_lowercase_christian_with/

-----

I assume this is not what you mean by saying Saints are "christian"?

Edited September 8, 2018 by Calm

[MiserereNobis]

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

Miserere, you are a nonLDS Christian, correct?  Do you make a distinction between Christian and christian?

Not with capital/lower-case letters. I do have a distinction in my mind between Christians who are part of the Church (the mystical body of Christ, not the Roman Catholic organizational structure) due to baptism and those who are not, but that is mainly academic I suppose. Catholics have a penchant for academic systematic theology  

[JAHS]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

Except one definition of small case christian contradicts your definition:

https://www.allwords.com/word-small+c+christian.html

Person who leads what could be described as a Christian life, but without acknowledging Jesus Christ as their religious leader.

-----

I assume this is not what you mean by saying Saints are "christian"?

No it's not what I meant. Like I said it's how I resolve it in my own mind.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

I think that is what you were going for with your rewrite, right? If so, I agree whole-heartedly. Bling crosses are appropriating a sacred symbol and turning it into the opposite of what it represents. I'm sure God is not pleased.

Yes, thank you. I saw some photos of the awful costumes featuring crosses that were worn at the Met Gala by people who publicly declare their Christianity. I won’t link them. 

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, JAHS said:

No it's not what I meant. Like I said it's how I resolve it in my own mind.

Do you think it will be confusing to others given the more common usage of lowercase christian to refer to someone who is not a believer in Christ, but lives a moral life?

For me, unless you explain this is your own unique thought process that contradicts what most people think of when they see the lowercase form each time you use it, it will may unintentionally mislead some into thinking you are saying Saints aren't actually believers in Christ.  

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others are the christians.

You say "we believe"....I don't believe that at all and .I know many other Saints who don't.

I believe we hold the fullest form of the Priesthood and ordinances, but I don't believe that makes us the "Real" Christians and other faiths somehow less christian. Anyone who attempts to follow Christ as their Savior is a Christian, imo.  I don't see many members feeling the need to limit the label "real Christian" to those they see as having the purest form or only authorized or whatever.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Calm

[JAHS]

40 minutes ago, Calm said:

Do you think it will be confusing to others given the more common usage of lowercase christian to refer to someone who is not a believer in Christ, but lives a moral life?

For me, unless you explain this is your own unique thought process that contradicts what most people think of when they see the lowercase form each time you use it, it will may unintentionally mislead some into thinking you are saying Saints aren't actually believers in Christ.  

You say "we believe"....I don't believe that at all and .I know many other Saints who don't.

I believe we hold the fullest form of the Priesthood and ordinances, but I don't believe that makes us the "Real" Christians and other faiths somehow less christian. Anyone who attempts to follow Christ as their Savior is a Christian, imo.  I don't see many members feeling the need to limit the label "real Christian" to those they see as having the purest form or only authorized or whatever.

I don't say anything about lower or upper case C when I am talking to someone about it.  I agree with all you are saying but at the same time I don't think the LDS church wants to group itself in with all the other faiths that call themselves "Christian" .  And they don't want us in their group.  There are too many important theological differences that would exclude us from their deffinition of the word "Christian".  So what do you tell people  when you say you are Christian and then they proceed to tell you why you are not? Do you tell them that their deffinition of the word Christian is wrong? 

[mfbukowski]

41 minutes ago, JAHS said:

I don't say anything about lower or upper case C when I am talking to someone about it.  I agree with all you are saying but at the same time I don't think the LDS church wants to group itself in with all the other faiths that call themselves "Christian" .  And they don't want us in their group.  There are too many important theological differences that would exclude us from their deffinition of the word "Christian".  So what do you tell people  when you say you are Christian and then they proceed to tell you why you are not? Do you tell them that their deffinition of the word Christian is wrong? 

I think I am just going to say I am a member of the church of Jesus Christ and let them ask questions if they want.

I would suggest that for everyone.

[MiserereNobis]

10 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I think I am just going to say I am a member of the church of Jesus Christ and let them ask questions if they want.

I would suggest that for everyone.

Works for me. I'll say the same

 

[Bernard Gui]

Here are my thoughts on the issue of LDS and the cross....an essay I wrote a while back and shared here.

Looking for the Cross in All the Wrong Places

"We may not know, we cannot tell, what pains he had to bear,

But we believe it was for us he hung and suffered there." (Hymn 194)

 Some observers find fault with the supposed LDS neglect of the Christian symbol of the cross because of its intentional absence from Mormon church buildings, clothing, jewelry, art, and iconography.(1) Since most Mormons do not openly use the cross or crucifix, one might mistakenly conclude they do not revere the cross. On the contrary, Mormons celebrate the cross with deep reverence and devotion in their weekly sacrament meetings and in their most sacred temple ceremonies.

 Elder Dallin Oaks explained the significance of the sacrament meeting.

 “The ordinance of the sacrament makes the sacrament meeting the most sacred and important meeting in the Church. It is the only Sabbath meeting the entire family can attend together. Its content in addition to the sacrament should always be planned and presented to focus our attention on the Atonement and teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ.”(2)

 The paramount reason for attending sacrament meeting is to partake of the sacrament or Lord's Supper, known in other churches as the Eucharist. There are three parts to the sacrament presentation: singing the hymn by the congregation, blessing the bread and water by the priests, and passing the emblems to the congregation by the deacons. It is during the sacramental hymn that the members of the church publicly express their feelings for Jesus and the Atonement. This is a good place to look for the cross in the LDS church.

There are twenty-eight “sacrament hymns” (hymns intended to precede the ordinance of the sacrament) in the LDS hymnbook.(3) The texts may include references to the personal meaning of the Atonement, the sufferings of Jesus, the events that took place, and the gratitude of the Saints for His sacrifice. 

 Nine hymns use the words cross or crucified. For example, hymn 184: 

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Upon the cross of Calvary they crucified our Lord

And sealed with blood the sacrifice that sanctified his word.

Upon the cross he meekly died for all mankind to see

That death unlocks the passageway into eternity.

Upon the cross our Savior died, but, dying, brought new birth

Through resurrection's miracle to all the sons of earth.

 Three use the word “tree” instead of “cross,” as in hymn 185: 

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Rev'rently and meekly now, let thy head most humbly bow.

Think of me, thou ransomed one; think what I for thee have done.

With my blood that dripped like rain, sweat in agony of pain,

With my body on the tree I have ransomed even thee.

In this bread now blest for thee, emblem of my body see;

In this water or this wine, emblem of my blood divine.

Oh, remember what was done that the sinner might be won.

On the cross of Calvary I have suffered death for thee.

 “Calvary” or “hill” (the location of the crucifixion) are mentioned in thirteen hymns. For example, hymn 171: 

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With humble heart, I bow my head and think of thee, O Savior, Lord.

I take the water and the bread to show remembrance of thy word.

Help me remember, I implore, thou gav'st thy life on Calvary,

That I might live forevermore, and grow, dear Lord, to be like thee.

 Hymns that do not explicitly mention cross, crucifixion, tree, hill, or Calvary refer to the sufferings endured by Jesus, such as hymn 187: 

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God loved us, so he sent his Son, Christ Jesus, the atoning One,

To show us by the path he trod the one and only way to God.

He came as man, though Son of God, and bowed himself beneath the rod.

He died in holy innocence, a broken law to recompense.

Oh, love effulgent, love divine! What debt of gratitude is mine,

That in his off'ring I have part and hold a place within his heart.

This sacrament doth represent his blood and body for me spent.

Partaking now is deed for word that I remember him, my Lord.

 And hymn 191 (which includes a veiled reference to the cross): 

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Behold the great Redeemer die, a broken law to satisfy.

He dies a sacrifice for sin, that man may live and glory win.

While guilty men his pains deride, they pierce his hands and feet and side;

And with insulting scoffs and scorns, they crown his head with plaited thorns.

Although in agony he hung, no murm'ring word escaped his tongue.

His high commission to fulfill, he magnified his Father's will. 

 In 3 Nephi 18: 1, Jesus gave these instructions which are followed every week in every Mormon church:  

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“And this shall ye always do to those who repent and are baptized in my name; and ye shall do it in remembrance of my blood, which I have shed for you, that ye may witness unto the Father that ye do always remember me. And if ye do always remember me ye shall have my Spirit to be with you.”

 For many Mormons, these are the most sacred of all their hymns. During the quiet reverence of the sacrament service, they sing of Jesus, His flesh and blood, His suffering and Atonement, the cross. During the passing of the sacrament they reflect on these things, silently repent and ask forgiveness, and pledge to always remember Him.

In addition, the crucifixion is at the core of the sacred rites and covenants members make in the temples including eternal marriage and the sealing of families. They are so sacred that they are mentioned and performed only in the temples.

This is where the cross is found in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

 (1) http://www.sltrib.co...ith/ci_12256269. Also, many anti-Mormon web sites use this issue to deny Mormons a place in Christianity.

 (2) http://www.lds.org/g...rament?lang=eng

 (3) Hymns of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1985, hymns #169-197.

 

Edited September 8, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Calm]

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

I don't say anything about lower or upper case C when I am talking to someone about it.  I agree with all you are saying but at the same time I don't think the LDS church wants to group itself in with all the other faiths that call themselves "Christian" .  And they don't want us in their group.  There are too many important theological differences that would exclude us from their deffinition of the word "Christian".  So what do you tell people  when you say you are Christian and then they proceed to tell you why you are not? Do you tell them that their deffinition of the word Christian is wrong? 

I say standard definition of Christian is someone who believes in Jesus as Christ and attempts to follow him, I tell them if they want to have an ingroup definition that differs from that, .I don't care in the least, but the world---including many Christian groups---doesn't see it that way generally and I don't specifically as I know I accept Jesus as God and Saviour and all that implies to me.

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I don't think the LDS church wants to group itself in with all the other faiths that call themselves "Christian" .

That depends on what you mean by "group itself".

Edited September 8, 2018 by Calm

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I think I am just going to say I am a member of the church of Jesus Christ and let them ask questions if they want.

I would suggest that for everyone.

Works for me. I'll say the same

 

Good advice.  

[JAHS]

 

1 hour ago, Calm said:

That depends on what you mean by "group itself".

I guess I mean the Church doesn't want to be included in the traditional Christian faiths who base their beliefs on the creeds that were made up centuries ago. They and we claim to worship a different Jesus or have a different understanding of who Jesus is.
"In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints 'do not believe in the traditional Christ.' 'No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.'" (LDS Church News Week ending June 20, 1998, p. 7).

We do want to be friends with them and consider them as our brothers and sisters and work together on common goals and interests.  

[Calm]

17 minutes ago, JAHS said:

 

I guess I mean the Church doesn't want to be included in the traditional Christian faiths who base their beliefs on the creeds that were made up centuries ago. They and we claim to worship a different Jesus or have a different understanding of who Jesus is.
"In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints 'do not believe in the traditional Christ.' 'No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.'" (LDS Church News Week ending June 20, 1998, p. 7).

We do want to be friends with them and consider them as our brothers and sisters and work together on common goals and interests.  

I agree that the Church doesn't wish to be included in credal Christianity.  But I would differ as to Christianity as a whole.

https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/christianity-following-jesus-in-word-and-deed

https://www.lds.org/topics/christians?lang=eng

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Another premise used in arguing that Latter-day Saints are not Christians is that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not descend from the traditional line of today’s Christian churches: Latter-day Saints are not Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Protestant. Latter-day Saints believe that by the ministering of angels to Joseph Smith priesthood authority to act in God's name was returned or brought back to earth. This is the “restored,” not a “reformed,” church of Jesus Christ. The Latter-day Saint belief in a restored Christianity helps explain why so many Latter-day Saints, from the 1830s to the present, have converted from other Christian denominations. These converts did not, and do not, perceive themselves as leaving the Christian fold; they are simply grateful to learn about and become part of the restored Church of Jesus Christ, which they believe offers the fulness of the Lord’s gospel, a more complete and rich Christian church—spiritually, organizationally, and doctrinally.

 

Edited September 8, 2018 by Calm