Popular Post hope_for_things Posted August 28, 2018 Popular Post Posted August 28, 2018 I just read through this news room article on a August 24th devotional by President Oaks, and I'm more than a little frustrated. I'm going to critique some of the quotes and leave it up to you if you want to comment. Some of what I'm going to say is pretty raw emotionally, and I think this talk is unfortunately one more example of why people like me just won't be welcome in church under the current regime. https://www.ldschurchnews.com/leaders-and-ministry/2018-08-28/president-oaks-talks-church-history-lgbt-issues-mental-illness-at-los-angeles-devotional-47877 Quote “Brothers and sisters, we know much more than you suppose,” he said. “You know we are constantly traveling to be with our members all over the world. What you may not know is that every week we receive reports from the most knowledgeable professionals in every field of concern in a worldwide Church — economics, politics, social sciences, legal requirements, diplomacy, the latest thinking on social issues, etc.” The Brethren are informed “about the world in which we live,” but “we are even more intensely informed about our own members — the challenges they face in medical care, mental health, public schools, higher education, employment, the market place, retirement, and in their personal relations such as marriage, childbearing, adoption, child-rearing, challenges to faith such as questions about Church history, same-gender attraction, transgender issues, etc.,” he said. If they are informed so fully, including through consulting with knowledgeable professionals, you'd think they wouldn't be so out of touch with society on important issues of our day. This quote helps me realize just how deliberately bad certain positions are, because of all the knowledge they have gathered, it makes me think that things like the Nov 2015 policy can't be made by mistake and that church leaders know exactly how damaging that policy really is and deliberately chose to implement the policy anyway. Quote The young married demographic in the Church faces “insurmountable obstacles,” he said. “You are raising children in an environment with overwhelming information and attitudes that are hostile to the mission and teachings of the Church.” Ironically its often the policies and practices of the church that are the obstacles that young married couples face. Quote Adding to the complexity of the challenges young married members face personally and with their children is the reality of the environment of mental illness; scholars reported in 2014 that one in five of the U.S. population between the ages of 18 to 25 had a mental illness, said President Oaks. This reaches down to younger ages and causes overall anxieties and significant overload among mental health counselors. I think this is a legitimate and important topic, but besides a few talks in recent years I can't think of how the church is effectively putting forward resources to address it. I also wonder how much the church's own teachings and practices aren't contributing factors that exacerbate mental health issues. They could lean on the vast knowledge of professionals in mental health to develop programs to assist those struggling with this serious issue, but I don't see any of the vast church resources being used effectively to combat this challenge. Quote “We have spent many hours talking about how we can simplify our Church programs to perform their essential function for a wide variety of family circumstances ...,” said President Oaks. “Now, I am pleased to tell you that some help is on the way and more is under discussion.” If this means the 2 hr block is coming, that would be excellent and I would cheer that decision. I'm hoping here. Quote In a lighter moment, President Oaks shared a list of five things that a husband should say to his wife. "I love you. I am sorry. Yes, dear. You look good in that. We can’t afford it." In a lighter note, here are some gender stereotypes and sexism. Thanks President Oaks. Offensive Grandpa humor, please keep it to yourself. Quote President Oaks also addressed questions about the rising generation which “increasingly sees the Church’s stance on the LGBT community as intolerant and inconsistent with our local and national laws” and who are seeking understanding about those who deal with same-gender attraction. Right, so at least they know that society at large is aware of the bigotry with the church's policies and the intolerant attitudes. Unfortunately, it seems this knowledge only makes them defend the practices even further. This is an issue for the younger generations. You're losing the younger generations because of your bigotry, LDS church. How can people not see the writing on the wall here. Quote Referencing the Church’s 2007 publication, "God Loveth His Children," President Oaks said there are many political, legal and social pressures for changes that would change the definition of marriage or de-emphasize its importance, confuse gender or homogenize the differences between men and women that are essential to accomplish God’s great plan of happiness. “Our eternal perspective sets us against such changes,” he said. “God’s love is so great that He requires His children to obey His laws because only through that obedience can they progress toward the eternal destiny He desires for them. Thus, in the final judgment, which follows the universal resurrection, we will all be assigned to the kingdom of glory that is commensurate with our obedience to His laws.” Now we're going to travel backwards in time to 2007 when our public statements on this topic were even more overtly offensive and troubling. Thanks for bringing up the uncomfortable history and doubling down on disturbing teachings by calling them eternal. Wow, this is just a cluster frank, I can't believe correlation let this talk get through. Maybe they've cleaned house of the more moderate people in the PR department in the last few months? I'm shocked these comments have been approved for public consumption in 2018. Quote “When you are asked a difficult question, such as a puzzler about Church history or doctrine, be honest and, if necessary, say you don’t know,” said President Oaks. “But then be sure to say what you do know: ‘I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God.’” At least the first part of this is a step in the right direction. Don't demonize your kids when they come to you with difficult questions. But instead of actually trying to answer those questions, just testify. Isn't this in conflict with Elder Ballard's talk to the CES a couple years back. Thats exactly what Elder Ballard said not to do. Crazy... Quote President Oaks then addressed a difficult question that has caused some to criticize or even leave the Church — the policy to not baptize young children being raised by same-gender couples until they were old enough to make a mature decision. “We were sorry to see how many critics of that policy failed to consider its positive purpose, which was to follow the Church’s long-standing effort to avoid creating conflicts between children and those who are raising them,” he said. “Where children are being raised by custodians who do not have such a fundamental conflict with Church doctrine, there are ways to obtain approval for children to be baptized.” We're sorry that those critics keep criticizing us. Don't they know that everything we do is approved by God by definition, and no matter how ugly our actions are, its not our fault, its God who's in charge of it, so really its not ugly at all, its really kind and loving. By definition its kind because its God's way of doing things and God is kind. Silly critics.... Quote Concluding, President Oaks said the theology of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints centers on the family. “Our relationship to God and the purpose of earth life are explained in terms of the family. We are the spirit children of heavenly parents. The gospel plan is implemented through earthly families, and our highest aspiration is to perpetuate those family relationships throughout eternity. The ultimate mission of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is to help us achieve exaltation in the celestial kingdom, and that can only be achieved in a family relationship.” If the church cares about families, its only certain kinds of families, the 1950s family ideal, not other very real families, not families that don't fit the mold. Either fit the mold or you don't belong in this church, and God doesn't approve of your family. That's the message I get from this talk. This is very frustrating and upsetting. I can't believe this guy is our leader in 2018. Such a horrible rewind into less tolerant times. 5
ksfisher Posted August 28, 2018 Posted August 28, 2018 11 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: I just read through this news room article on a August 24th devotional by President Oaks, and I'm more than a little frustrated. I'm going to critique some of the quotes and leave it up to you if you want to comment. Some of what I'm going to say is pretty raw emotionally, and I think this talk is unfortunately one more example of why people like me just won't be welcome in church under the current regime. https://www.ldschurchnews.com/leaders-and-ministry/2018-08-28/president-oaks-talks-church-history-lgbt-issues-mental-illness-at-los-angeles-devotional-47877 If they are informed so fully, including through consulting with knowledgeable professionals, you'd think they wouldn't be so out of touch with society on important issues of our day. This quote helps me realize just how deliberately bad certain positions are, because of all the knowledge they have gathered, it makes me think that things like the Nov 2015 policy can't be made by mistake and that church leaders know exactly how damaging that policy really is and deliberately chose to implement the policy anyway. Ironically its often the policies and practices of the church that are the obstacles that young married couples face. I think this is a legitimate and important topic, but besides a few talks in recent years I can't think of how the church is effectively putting forward resources to address it. I also wonder how much the church's own teachings and practices aren't contributing factors that exacerbate mental health issues. They could lean on the vast knowledge of professionals in mental health to develop programs to assist those struggling with this serious issue, but I don't see any of the vast church resources being used effectively to combat this challenge. If this means the 2 hr block is coming, that would be excellent and I would cheer that decision. I'm hoping here. In a lighter note, here are some gender stereotypes and sexism. Thanks President Oaks. Offensive Grandpa humor, please keep it to yourself. Right, so at least they know that society at large is aware of the bigotry with the church's policies and the intolerant attitudes. Unfortunately, it seems this knowledge only makes them defend the practices even further. This is an issue for the younger generations. You're losing the younger generations because of your bigotry, LDS church. How can people not see the writing on the wall here. Now we're going to travel backwards in time to 2007 when our public statements on this topic were even more overtly offensive and troubling. Thanks for bringing up the uncomfortable history and doubling down on disturbing teachings by calling them eternal. Wow, this is just a cluster frank, I can't believe correlation let this talk get through. Maybe they've cleaned house of the more moderate people in the PR department in the last few months? I'm shocked these comments have been approved for public consumption in 2018. At least the first part of this is a step in the right direction. Don't demonize your kids when they come to you with difficult questions. But instead of actually trying to answer those questions, just testify. Isn't this in conflict with Elder Ballard's talk to the CES a couple years back. Thats exactly what Elder Ballard said not to do. Crazy... We're sorry that those critics keep criticizing us. Don't they know that everything we do is approved by God by definition, and no matter how ugly our actions are, its not our fault, its God who's in charge of it, so really its not ugly at all, its really kind and loving. By definition its kind because its God's way of doing things and God is kind. Silly critics.... If the church cares about families, its only certain kinds of families, the 1950s family ideal, not other very real families, not families that don't fit the mold. Either fit the mold or you don't belong in this church, and God doesn't approve of your family. That's the message I get from this talk. This is very frustrating and upsetting. I can't believe this guy is our leader in 2018. Such a horrible rewind into less tolerant times. Was there anything he said that you agreed with? 1
Popular Post Hamba Tuhan Posted August 29, 2018 Popular Post Posted August 29, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, hope_for_things said: If they are informed so fully, including through consulting with knowledgeable professionals, you'd think they wouldn't be so out of touch with society on important issues of our day. By which, of course, you really mean 'out of touch with your secular-progressive corner of American society', right? Which, viewed globally, is only one small (though noisy) minority group amongst many, many others. By the way, can you point us to any examples from the scriptures where the prophets of God weren't 'out of touch' with the prevailing trends in their societies? Isn't this pretty much the sole reason for God to send mouthpieces to cry repentance? Quote I think this talk is unfortunately one more example of why people like me just won't be welcome in church under the current regime. Your call. If you're hoping to outlive this kind of thing, I'm afraid you may end up sorely disappointed. Thank you for posting this link, by the way. I hadn't read this synopsis, and I really enjoyed it! Edited August 29, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan 5
hope_for_things Posted August 29, 2018 Author Posted August 29, 2018 1 hour ago, ksfisher said: Was there anything he said that you agreed with? Not much really, but I did say I was hopeful about his allusion to future time savings efforts that the 2 hr block was coming. I also said I was glad the church is acknowledging problems with mental health but that they need to do more than just give lip service.
hope_for_things Posted August 29, 2018 Author Posted August 29, 2018 28 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: By which, of course, you really mean 'out of touch with your secular-progressive corner of American society', right? Which, viewed globally, is only one small (though noisy) minority group amongst many, many others. I would venture to say that all the opinions that I espoused here would be shared by the majority of Americans at least in a general sense, and I imagine I could find recent polling data to support that. So I wouldn’t say its a corner of American society. Actually I think your critique about this being a corner of society would more accurately describe the current LDS church’s positions. 33 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: By the way, can you point us to any examples from the scriptures where the prophets of God weren't 'out of touch' with the prevailing trends in their societies? Isn't this pretty much the sole reason for God to send mouthpieces to cry repentance? So at first you say my position is only shared by a corner of society, then you site scriptural precedence that ideas held by only a corner of society are evidence for being supported by God. Of course this kind of logic doesn’t really hold up when scrutinized because there are thousands of ideas that small groups of people hold in this world, and surely you wouldn’t assert that all those ideas are God supported, would you? 36 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Your call. If you're hoping to outlive this kind of thing, I'm afraid you may end up sorely disappointed. Thank you for posting this link, by the way. I hadn't read this synopsis, and I really enjoyed it! I’m hoping for change, just like I’m hoping for change in our federal government. I’m not naive enough to expect it, but I like to hope that at least we won’t make strides backwards, which I see this talk as doing. 2
Popular Post The Nehor Posted August 29, 2018 Popular Post Posted August 29, 2018 Why do you hate-watch/read/listen to this? It plainly just infuriates you. Are you trying to become the Hulk or something? 5
Hamba Tuhan Posted August 29, 2018 Posted August 29, 2018 5 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: I would venture to say that all the opinions that I espoused here would be shared by the majority of Americans at least in a general sense, and I imagine I could find recent polling data to support that. You're on! Then, when you've finished with that, please provide polling data to show that all your opinions are shared by a majority of the people in the world. Quote Actually I think your critique about this being a corner of society would more accurately describe the current LDS church’s positions. Absolutely! The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints doesn't even pretend to be a popular movement. Quote So at first you say my position is only shared by a corner of society, then you site scriptural precedence that ideas held by only a corner of society are evidence for being supported by God. I did no such thing. Please go back and read my words. 1
Hamba Tuhan Posted August 29, 2018 Posted August 29, 2018 8 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Why do you hate-watch/read/listen to this? It plainly just infuriates you. Are you trying to become the Hulk or something? Some people seem to be at their happiest when in a state of semi-permanent indignation. 2
The Nehor Posted August 29, 2018 Posted August 29, 2018 Just now, Hamba Tuhan said: Some people seem to be at their happiest when in a state of semi-permanent indignation. No, they are comfortable, not happy. The Book of Mormon plainly teaches that many outright prefer misery.
Hamba Tuhan Posted August 29, 2018 Posted August 29, 2018 Just now, The Nehor said: No, they are comfortable, not happy. The Book of Mormon plainly teaches that many outright prefer misery. Sorry, I should have used speech marks: 'happiest'. But yes, it's like those people who so thrive on conflict that, whenever calmness reigns, they have to go stir someone up. I suspect maybe it gives them a sense of purpose in what must otherwise be a purposeless life. 1
strappinglad Posted August 29, 2018 Posted August 29, 2018 Rumor has it that the GSB is adding another floor . 3
nuclearfuels Posted August 29, 2018 Posted August 29, 2018 This might be a generational gap problem. The younger generation, in my limited yet true experience renting apartments to them, do not understand many things, such as: one must latch the door of a dishwasher before it will run a batch; vinegar and baking soda clear out organic material that might be stuck in pipes; bending and removing pieces of an awning leads to rain waiter entering the unit; let alone the..."difficult" doctrines of: graduate college, get married, work hard, have kids if you can, endure to the end; oh, and it's not going to get any easier as we get closer to the Second Coming. Seems hard to grasp/accept that the First Presidency, the Savior, His Father, etc. none of Them created marriage or biology. None of them are authorized to redefine any principle related to that. Having 5 siblings with disabilities, 1 of which is married, and bring raised around a lot of divorce; none of that changes eternal doctrine. THe great words of Langhorn Slim's song Restless, come to mind- Can blame it on your teachersYou can blame it on the weatherCan blame it on how your mother and your father didn't stick togetherSomeday darlin its got to make sense in your headCan't make up your mind till you wake up and make your bed 1
Duncan Posted August 29, 2018 Posted August 29, 2018 2 hours ago, hope_for_things said: I just read through this news room article on a August 24th devotional by President Oaks, and I'm more than a little frustrated. I'm going to critique some of the quotes and leave it up to you if you want to comment. Some of what I'm going to say is pretty raw emotionally, and I think this talk is unfortunately one more example of why people like me just won't be welcome in church under the current regime. https://www.ldschurchnews.com/leaders-and-ministry/2018-08-28/president-oaks-talks-church-history-lgbt-issues-mental-illness-at-los-angeles-devotional-47877 If they are informed so fully, including through consulting with knowledgeable professionals, you'd think they wouldn't be so out of touch with society on important issues of our day. This quote helps me realize just how deliberately bad certain positions are, because of all the knowledge they have gathered, it makes me think that things like the Nov 2015 policy can't be made by mistake and that church leaders know exactly how damaging that policy really is and deliberately chose to implement the policy anyway. Ironically its often the policies and practices of the church that are the obstacles that young married couples face. I think this is a legitimate and important topic, but besides a few talks in recent years I can't think of how the church is effectively putting forward resources to address it. I also wonder how much the church's own teachings and practices aren't contributing factors that exacerbate mental health issues. They could lean on the vast knowledge of professionals in mental health to develop programs to assist those struggling with this serious issue, but I don't see any of the vast church resources being used effectively to combat this challenge. If this means the 2 hr block is coming, that would be excellent and I would cheer that decision. I'm hoping here. In a lighter note, here are some gender stereotypes and sexism. Thanks President Oaks. Offensive Grandpa humor, please keep it to yourself. Right, so at least they know that society at large is aware of the bigotry with the church's policies and the intolerant attitudes. Unfortunately, it seems this knowledge only makes them defend the practices even further. This is an issue for the younger generations. You're losing the younger generations because of your bigotry, LDS church. How can people not see the writing on the wall here. Now we're going to travel backwards in time to 2007 when our public statements on this topic were even more overtly offensive and troubling. Thanks for bringing up the uncomfortable history and doubling down on disturbing teachings by calling them eternal. Wow, this is just a cluster frank, I can't believe correlation let this talk get through. Maybe they've cleaned house of the more moderate people in the PR department in the last few months? I'm shocked these comments have been approved for public consumption in 2018. At least the first part of this is a step in the right direction. Don't demonize your kids when they come to you with difficult questions. But instead of actually trying to answer those questions, just testify. Isn't this in conflict with Elder Ballard's talk to the CES a couple years back. Thats exactly what Elder Ballard said not to do. Crazy... We're sorry that those critics keep criticizing us. Don't they know that everything we do is approved by God by definition, and no matter how ugly our actions are, its not our fault, its God who's in charge of it, so really its not ugly at all, its really kind and loving. By definition its kind because its God's way of doing things and God is kind. Silly critics.... If the church cares about families, its only certain kinds of families, the 1950s family ideal, not other very real families, not families that don't fit the mold. Either fit the mold or you don't belong in this church, and God doesn't approve of your family. That's the message I get from this talk. This is very frustrating and upsetting. I can't believe this guy is our leader in 2018. Such a horrible rewind into less tolerant times. um, "offensive Grandpa humour" made for great Canadian TV in the 1990's! 3
juliann Posted August 29, 2018 Posted August 29, 2018 2 hours ago, hope_for_things said: If the church cares about families, its only certain kinds of families, the 1950s family ideal, not other very real families, not families that don't fit the mold. Either fit the mold or you don't belong in this church, and God doesn't approve of your family. That's the message I get from this talk. This is very frustrating and upsetting. I can't believe this guy is our leader in 2018. Such a horrible rewind into less tolerant times. That is demonstrably untrue. The move towards more understanding and tolerance has grown in leaps and bounds in almost all areas. They do deserve credit for that. Why do I get the impression from this very short selection of quotes that you have left out all the good stuff? 3
ksfisher Posted August 29, 2018 Posted August 29, 2018 4 minutes ago, Duncan said: um, "offensive Grandpa humour" made for great Canadian TV in the 1990's! Love Red Green! 2
kllindley Posted August 29, 2018 Posted August 29, 2018 1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said: By which, of course, you really mean 'out of touch with your secular-progressive corner of American society', right? Which, viewed globally, is only one small (though noisy) minority group amongst many, many others. By the way, can you point us to any examples from the scriptures where the prophets of God weren't 'out of touch' with the prevailing trends in their societies? Isn't this pretty much the sole reason for God to send mouthpieces to cry repentance? Your call. If you're hoping to outlive this kind of thing, I'm afraid you may end up sorely disappointed. Thank you for posting this link, by the way. I hadn't read this synopsis, and I really enjoyed it! Yup.
hope_for_things Posted August 29, 2018 Author Posted August 29, 2018 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: Why do you hate-watch/read/listen to this? It plainly just infuriates you. Are you trying to become the Hulk or something? It’s a good question and sometimes I wonder the same thing. Why do I pay attention to politics with our current administration is another question I keep asking myself.... 1
hope_for_things Posted August 29, 2018 Author Posted August 29, 2018 1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said: By which, of course, you really mean 'out of touch with your secular-progressive corner of American society', right? Which, viewed globally, is only one small (though noisy) minority group amongst many, many others. By the way, can you point us to any examples from the scriptures where the prophets of God weren't 'out of touch' with the prevailing trends in their societies? Isn't this pretty much the sole reason for God to send mouthpieces to cry repentance? Here is where you said it. First you say my views are held by a small minority. Then you say that the prophets of God in the scriptures also held minority views in their societies, and that is why God uses prophets to cry repentance. So on one hand you’re criticizing me for having a minority view, and on the other hand you’re saying God calls prophets who held minority views to preach repentance. 1
hope_for_things Posted August 29, 2018 Author Posted August 29, 2018 59 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: You're on! Then, when you've finished with that, please provide polling data to show that all your opinions are shared by a majority of the people in the world. Absolutely! The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints doesn't even pretend to be a popular movement. This is so ironic that its making me laugh. On one hand you want me to provide evidence that I don’t hold a minority view on these topics. On the other hand you are proud that the LDS church “doesn’t even pretend to be a popular movement”. Can you not see the two opposing positions you are holding at the same time? Here is one poll on same sex marriage which shows majority support on this topic, which is clearly the case, and I’m suprised you even want me to produce this data, as I’m sure you’re aware of this trend. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2018/05/23/same-sex-marriage-poll-americans/638587002/
hope_for_things Posted August 29, 2018 Author Posted August 29, 2018 1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Some people seem to be at their happiest when in a state of semi-permanent indignation. If you read my posts and follow my comments, you’ll know this is a very inaccurate characterization. I’m a very positive person the majority of the time. Nice try at slinging a negative stereotype at any criticisms that you don’t agree with. Much easier to just demonize people than to engage with them on substance.
hope_for_things Posted August 29, 2018 Author Posted August 29, 2018 47 minutes ago, strappinglad said: Rumor has it that the GSB is adding another floor . George A. Smith Building? (GSB?)
hope_for_things Posted August 29, 2018 Author Posted August 29, 2018 42 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said: Seems hard to grasp/accept that the First Presidency, the Savior, His Father, etc. none of Them created marriage or biology. None of them are authorized to redefine any principle related to that. Having 5 siblings with disabilities, 1 of which is married, and bring raised around a lot of divorce; none of that changes eternal doctrine. Actually, everything is relative, that’s pretty much the only eternal doctrine that I can see happening here. Nature and nurtue are components for all of the above, and its arrogant to think that some guy in the 21st century knows all there is to know about the complexities of nature and nurture and can define what is God ordained and what isn’t.
hope_for_things Posted August 29, 2018 Author Posted August 29, 2018 (edited) Nevermind another person replied with the answer Edited August 29, 2018 by hope_for_things
hope_for_things Posted August 29, 2018 Author Posted August 29, 2018 39 minutes ago, juliann said: That is demonstrably untrue. The move towards more understanding and tolerance has grown in leaps and bounds in almost all areas. They do deserve credit for that. Why do I get the impression from this very short selection of quotes that you have left out all the good stuff? If they do accept families outside the mold, its not apparent to my based on the policies and comments of certain church leaders. In fairness there are mixed messages coming from the church constantly about loving and tolerating others, but then another message comes out that shows how they don’t really treat these people as equal. As for the selective quotes, click no the link. I didn’t comment on every quote in the article, but probably 75% of them.
Recommended Posts