juliann Posted August 28, 2018 Posted August 28, 2018 3 minutes ago, Vanguard said: I've been following this thread loosely over the last several days. Has anyone commented on whether modesty in dress is something to be enforced at all? The prevailing consensus seems there should be no enforcement. Should girls be thrown out of activities? No, if that is what you mean. Ladies, should we place bets on how many more times we are going to have to say the same thing? 3
juliann Posted August 28, 2018 Posted August 28, 2018 21 minutes ago, pogi said: I have never seen it taught that way from our leaders. I have seen some people twist their words to read that way, but I strongly doubt that our apostles and prophets view boys as slaves to their bad thoughts, and that girls are entirely responsible and to blame. Do you hang out much in YW? Why would you expect to hear the counsel given to YW in YW only forums? how long are you going to deny what each and every woman in this forum has experienced? What is the end game? I’m really curious. 3
Vanguard Posted August 28, 2018 Posted August 28, 2018 6 minutes ago, juliann said: Should girls be thrown out of activities? No, if that is what you mean. Ladies, should we place bets on how many more times we are going to have to say the same thing? Slow down. Can you answer my question? And I didn't know it was a ladies vs. gentlemem thing? : (
SouthernMo Posted August 28, 2018 Posted August 28, 2018 8 minutes ago, juliann said: how long are you going to deny what each and every woman in this forum has experienced? What is the end game? I’m really curious. It is truly mind-boggling how hard of a time humans have grasping that they are responsible for themselves. Blaming others is weak behavior. Its especially frustrating in this LDS forum, where we should have a stronger belief in our own individual agency. 1
pogi Posted August 28, 2018 Posted August 28, 2018 34 minutes ago, Rain said: Awareness is very different from accountability. I think teaching awareness is great for both boys and girls. I do not think it should be tied to accountability. Awareness makes one accountable for their role. We will be held accountable for how our actions/behaviors affect others. We are not responsible for their thoughts, but we are accountable for our influence. That is true in all principles, why would it be different in morality? 1
bluebell Posted August 28, 2018 Posted August 28, 2018 39 minutes ago, pogi said: I have never seen it taught that way from our leaders. I have seen some people twist their words to read that way, but I strongly doubt that our apostles and prophets view boys as slaves to their bad thoughts, and that girls are entirely responsible and to blame. I don't think anyone is saying that girls are being taught that they are entirely responsible. But girls have been/are being taught that one of the reasons that they should be modest is because boys need them to be modest to help them have clean thoughts. They are being taught this by ward and stake leaders. 3
Rain Posted August 28, 2018 Posted August 28, 2018 9 minutes ago, pogi said: Awareness makes one accountable for their role. We will be held accountable for how our actions/behaviors affect others. We are not responsible for their thoughts, but we are accountable for our influence. That is true in all principles, why would it be different in morality? Maybe we are talking past each other. What specifically do you mean by "affect others"?
mfbukowski Posted August 28, 2018 Posted August 28, 2018 (edited) 37 minutes ago, bluebell said: I don't think anyone is saying that girls are being taught that they are entirely responsible. But girls have been/are being taught that one of the reasons that they should be modest is because boys need them to be modest to help them have clean thoughts. They are being taught this by ward and stake leaders. Well then let's drop all dress standards for both sexes- everyone wears whatever they want to church, activities, dances etc and see if immorality increases. Just a little experiment. No more instruction about modesty at all. What applies to boys should apply to girls. It should be the same on both sides. What do you think would happen? Edited August 28, 2018 by mfbukowski
juliann Posted August 28, 2018 Posted August 28, 2018 52 minutes ago, Vanguard said: Slow down. Can you answer my question? And I didn't know it was a ladies vs. gentlemem thing? : ( Vanguard, sorry but I am weary of repeating. Can you please read the thread and then join in?
SouthernMo Posted August 28, 2018 Posted August 28, 2018 5 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Well then let's drop all dress standards for both sexes- everyone wears whatever they want to church, activities, dances etc and see if immorality increases. Just a little experiment. No more instruction about modesty at all. What applies to boys should apply to girls. It should be the same on both sides. What do you think would happen? Yes - I agree. I posted this question on page 8: The more I reflect pragmatically on the issue of modesty, the more I believe it doesn’t matter nearly as much as the volume and intensity of LDS (local and HQ) teaching on this subject implies. Seriously - what would happen if church teachings just stopped addressing modesty (I’m not talking about morality - JUST modesty)? I have been looking, and I can’t find any studies that correlate modest dress with decreased premarital sex. If there are any, please share. (To be clear - I’m interested in studies and data only, not anecdotes, real or hypothetical)
bluebell Posted August 28, 2018 Posted August 28, 2018 3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Well then let's drop all dress standards for both sexes- everyone wears whatever they want to church, activities, dances etc and see if immorality increases. Just a little experiment. No more instruction about modesty at all. What applies to boys should apply to girls. It should be the same on both sides. What do you think would happen? That seems like an extreme thing to do and I don't see the point in the hypothetical. However, gypsy girls dress very provocatively as teens and tweens but have very very low rates of premarital sex. So the connection between immodesty and immorality is not a given. 1
juliann Posted August 28, 2018 Posted August 28, 2018 7 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Well then let's drop all dress standards for both sexes- everyone wears whatever they want to church, activities, dances etc and see if immorality increases. Just a little experiment. No more instruction about modesty at all. What applies to boys should apply to girls. It should be the same on both sides. What do you think would happen? Please relate dropping all standards to even one thing that has been said. Good grief.
SouthernMo Posted August 28, 2018 Posted August 28, 2018 9 minutes ago, juliann said: Please relate dropping all standards to even one thing that has been said. Good grief. I disagree you on this, but for reasons you may agree with (if you can follow that!). I honestly think people would be better off if we led the church as Joseph Smith intended. Something about “teach correct principles, but let them govern themselves...” I trust people to make wise choices on their own most of the time. When we make mistakes, we tend to learn. I think that agency, fall, repent, improve method works a lot better than the “not one soul will dress immodestly” method. Sorry for seeming melodramatic, but I embrace principles of agency as of god, and principles of control as satanic. 2
pogi Posted August 28, 2018 Posted August 28, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, juliann said: Do you hang out much in YW? Why would you expect to hear the counsel given to YW in YW only forums? To clarify, on all teaching of modesty that I have heard from the general authorities, I have never heard them say that young women are entirely responsible for the thoughts of men, and that men should be seen as "helpless slaves to their most puerile thoughts". Just to clarify, are you really suggesting that our apostles and prophets are teaching those things to YW in YW only forums? Quote how long are you going to deny what each and every woman in this forum has experienced? What is the end game? I’m really curious. Perhaps you are not listening to what other women are saying in this forum. There doesn't seem to be a unanimous voice about this. For example: 1 hour ago, bluebell said: I don't think anyone is saying that girls are being taught that they are entirely responsible. It appears to me that juliann is saying that. She seems to be claiming that this is being taught to YW in YW only forums, and that I should just take her word for it. Edited August 28, 2018 by pogi
juliann Posted August 28, 2018 Posted August 28, 2018 17 minutes ago, pogi said: It appears to me that juliann is saying that. She seems to be claiming that this is being taught to YW in YW only forums, and that I should just take her word for it. So let’s analyze what you have just done. It has been repeatedly stated that these problem rules are not coming from the Brethren, i. e., the standards pamphlet. We will let the two apostles who have said very plainly that they are pornography go because it was a long time ago. Regardless of the actual discussion, you continue to build strawmen. Your last statement pretty much sums up why women are getting angry. Despite the multiple witnesses of girls being told they should dress to protect boys, you feel that you are the ultimate authority merely because you (obviously) don’t experience this. Therefore, those who have should be disregarded. I did notice how you attempted to escape this dilemma by adding the straw man that no one is teaching “girls are entirely responsible.” As if anyone has ever said that. All you have done is talk in extremes, which I can only assume is an attempt to divert what women are trying to talk about. Perhaps you can explain why you want to make everyone defend statements no one ever said?
juliann Posted August 28, 2018 Posted August 28, 2018 Pogi, you have even quoted BB saying that no one has said girls are being taught they are entirely responsible. How long are you going to keep this up?
Bernard Gui Posted August 28, 2018 Posted August 28, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, california boy said: My whole point is WHY is there well-known dress standards for an activity which the youth have agreed to observe. In every one of these "stated well-known dress standards, it is artificially dictated and not to be found anywhere in the FTSOY pamphlet. If further standards are needed, why are they not found in the FTSOY pamphlet? If you can answer those questions, then it will help me understand your ridged approach as "bouncer" for youth dances. Well, I have gone to great lengths to explain in detail how I tried to temper strictness with fairness when I was Brother Bouncer at the stake dances. How you can reasonably call what I did ridged is beyond my comprehension, unless, of course, you are purposely trying to be contentious. Further light is shed on LDS dress standards in our official publications. I hope these help. Here is the standard quote from FTSOY: Quote Immodest clothing is any clothing that is tight, sheer, or revealing in any other manner. Young women should avoid short shorts and short skirts, shirts that do not cover the stomach, and clothing that does not cover the shoulders or is low-cut in the front or the back. Young men should also maintain modesty in their appearance. Young men and young women should be neat and clean and avoid being extreme or inappropriately casual in clothing, hairstyle, and behavior. They should choose appropriately modest apparel when participating in sports. The fashions of the world will change, but the Lord’s standards will not change....If you are not sure what is appropriate to wear, study the words of the prophets, pray for guidance, and ask your parents or leaders for help. Your dress and appearance now will help you prepare for the time when you will go to the temple to make sacred covenants with God. Ask yourself, “Would I feel comfortable with my appearance if I were in the Lord’s presence?” ....dancing can be fun and can provide an opportunity to meet new people. However, it too can be misused. When dancing, avoid full body contact with your partner. Do not use positions or moves that are suggestive of sexual or violent behavior or are otherwise inappropriate. Attend only those dances where dress, grooming, lighting, lyrics, music, and entertainment contribute to a wholesome atmosphere where the Spirit may be present. In the August 2008 Ensign, Elder Hales wrote this: Quote Some Latter-day Saints may feel that modesty is a tradition of the Church or that it has evolved from conservative, puritanical behavior. Modesty is not just cultural. Modesty is a gospel principle that applies to people of all cultures and ages. In fact, modesty is fundamental to being worthy of the Spirit. To be modest is to be humble, and being humble invites the Spirit to be with us.... In everyday living, immodest clothing such as short shorts, miniskirts, tight clothing, shirts that do not cover the stomach, and other revealing attire are not appropriate. Men and women—including young men and young women—should wear clothing that covers the shoulder and avoid clothing that is low cut in the front or back or revealing in any other manner. Tight pants, tight shirts, excessively baggy clothing, wrinkled apparel, and unkempt hair are not appropriate. All should avoid extremes in clothing, hairstyle, and other aspects of appearance. We should always be neat and clean, avoiding sloppiness or inappropriate casualness.1 Modesty is at the center of being pure and chaste, both in thought and deed. Thus, because it guides and influences our thoughts, behavior, and decisions, modesty is at the core of our character. Our clothing is more than just covering for our bodies; it reflects who we are and what we want to be, both here in mortality and in the eternities that will follow. In the July 2007 Liahona, Sister Silvia Allred, counsellor in the YM Presidency, wrote this: Quote The pamphlet For the Strength of Youth offers basic guidelines for modesty. This booklet is valuable for both youth and adults: “Immodest clothing includes short shorts and skirts, tight clothing, shirts that do not cover the stomach, and other revealing attire. … Women should wear clothing that covers the shoulder and avoid clothing that is low-cut in the front or the back or revealing in any other manner. … Men should also maintain modesty in their appearance. All should avoid extremes in clothing, appearance, and hairstyle. Always be neat and clean and avoid being sloppy or inappropriately casual in dress, grooming, and manners. Ask yourself, ‘Would I feel comfortable with my appearance if I were in the Lord’s presence?’” Seek the guidance of the Spirit as you choose modest apparel. Additionally, as you consider the principles associated with modesty, you might also benefit from asking yourself specific questions like these: Am I exposing too much of my body when I sit down, bend over, reach up, or climb stairs? Do I call attention to myself by wearing clothing that is revealing or provocative? Do I need to adjust, tuck, or rearrange my temple garments in order to wear a particular item? In the 2014 Ensign, Sister Carol McConkie, YM Presidency counsellor gave this wise counsel: Quote ....Please remember that the principles of modesty shared here apply to both men and women, sons and daughters, and remember that even as we teach and exemplify modesty, we never condemn those who choose short skirts or “rainbow hair and the many splendored rings.” Always we exemplify compassion and Christlike love for the individual while we remain loyal to the standards the Lord has set.... Modesty in dress and appearance and in thought and behavior will help prepare us to make and keep sacred temple covenants. To bless and protect Adam and Eve, God gave them coats of skins to clothe them before sending them out of the garden. In like manner, God has given us a covering of covenants in mortality, symbolized by our sacred temple garments....What can we teach our sons and daughters to help them have the courage to choose modesty in a world that would mock and scorn them for their pure and virtuous choices? Do they see us using our bodies to draw attention or to glorify God? In my assignment to chaperone Church youth dances, I believe I was in line with her counsel to "Always...exemplify compassion and Christlike love for the individual while [remaining] loyal to the standards the Lord has set." I don't see how you can find fault with that. If you search for and read some other articles in Church magazines and Conference talks, you can glean a lot of practical advice on how to deal with modesty problems at youth activities. Here are a few I found: 1. Parents, youth, and youth leaders should work together to decide what will be the standards for an activity. 2. When an adult finds him/herself in the position of correcting a youth, it should be done privately with dignity, fairness, and compassion. 3. Be sure dress standards are well publicized before the event. 4. Chaperones should be trained on how to deal with confrontations and correction. 5. Rules should not be inflexible but applied wisely and fairly. If you are looking for a Church-wide list of do's and dont's, you won't find it. This article by Carol Canon, Secretary to the Correlation Committee and member of the YW General Board in the April 1972 New Era explains in detail. She answers the question, "Who Establishes Church Dress Standards." It's worth reading. Quote Who is it that determines what Church standards of dress shall be? Is it a Church auxiliary? a committee? a school faculty? The answer is that it is none of these. It is true that an organization may set up certain standards or restrictions for those who participate in its programs or activities, and the trustees of Church schools establish rules and standards for those who enroll in those schools. Such standards and regulations are determined by the leaders of the specific group and in terms of what they think is best for the majority of those concerned, but these regulations would not necessarily apply to members of the Church in other areas and under other conditions. Hence they would not be Church-wide regulations or standards. Even if it were the desire of our leaders to dictate specific dress standards for Church members everywhere, it would be difficult, if not impossible, because of the worldwide scope of the Church and the fact that modes of dress vary among different cultures and from generation to generation. And so, rather than do this, they consistently and forcefully point out and set before us the standards and principles that the Lord established as guidelines for entrance into his kingdom. Foremost among these principles are those that pertain to purity of thought and action. Since modesty is an essential element of purity, and, in the matter of dress, is interpreted to mean clothing the body adequately and in good taste, dress standards become a matter of concern to youth, to parents, and to our Church leaders. In this matter of modesty, as in other concepts, the Lord tries to teach us by giving us principles rather than by listing exact specifics that would tend to take from us our free agency. To help us understand and interpret these principles and make the right choice is a primary role of our Church leaders. Edited August 29, 2018 by Bernard Gui
Bernard Gui Posted August 28, 2018 Posted August 28, 2018 1 hour ago, juliann said: Should girls be thrown out of activities? No, if that is what you mean. Ladies, should we place bets on how many more times we are going to have to say the same thing? Throwing them out hasn't been presented as the solution, as far as I can tell. Isn't there a middle ground between "throwing them out" and giving license? I think so.
Bernard Gui Posted August 28, 2018 Posted August 28, 2018 2 hours ago, california boy said: why? I think there has been enough discussion on this that you can figure that out for yourself.
pogi Posted August 28, 2018 Posted August 28, 2018 4 hours ago, BlueDreams said: What I would like to know is who is the judge of the woman's intentions when she dressed? You, me, the guy being "tempted," or Jesus? If there was no intention to be "provocative" or to try and to illicit sexual oriented attention to herself, then no...she doesn't have an iota of accountability to the man's thoughts. But even if she was, the vast majority of the experience and what he does in the situation is his. Think of it this way. What if Joseph succumbed to Potifar's wife abject tries of seduction. Would the excuse "she made me do it. She made me feel this way" really excuse or even mitigate some of his culpability in the situation? NO. He would have been the one to screw up and follow suit. To address this issue of intention and influence - I think it is true that where there is no intention/awareness, there can be no accountability. But where there is awareness, then there is accountability. No one is accountable/responsible for the thoughts/actions of others, but they are accountable for their influence. No, it could not be said that Potifar's wife "made" Joseph do it, or that she "made" him feel that way. She will not be accountable for his actions and thoughts, but she will be held accountable for her influence. His culpability for his actions does not diminish her culpability for hers. President Monson said this: Quote More than 40 years ago, when President David O. McKay extended to me a call to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, he warmly welcomed me with a heartfelt smile and a tender embrace. Among the sacred counsel he extended was the declaration, “There is one responsibility that no one can evade. That is the effect of one’s personal influence.”
Bernard Gui Posted August 28, 2018 Posted August 28, 2018 3 hours ago, juliann said: I do apologize, BG. But perhaps you are not understanding how tiring this is for the women here. It is unrelenting. We have been explaining women's stuff here for years, the same stuff over and over. The extreme push back and thread hijacking needs to stop. Wouldn't it be easier to just ignore the thread? Have I been extremely pushing back?
Bernard Gui Posted August 28, 2018 Posted August 28, 2018 3 hours ago, jkwilliams said: Maybe we should be counseling our youth about nonsuggestive posture. Only if we are not science deniers.
juliann Posted August 28, 2018 Posted August 28, 2018 6 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Throwing them out hasn't been presented as the solution, as far as I can tell. Isn't there a middle ground between "throwing them out" and giving license? I think so. Your list of quotes was informative to see the modifications. Drawing attention to yourself is now the problem. That covers everyone. So at least at the top the dialogue is changing. There is no way to respond to a middle ground without knowing what the definition of license is. The only middle ground I have seen is to humiliate girls by making them wear t shirts or somebody’s sweater.
juliann Posted August 28, 2018 Posted August 28, 2018 5 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Wouldn't it be easier to just ignore the thread? Have I been extremely pushing back? So I am to ignore a thread about a problem experienced by girls/ women so men can feel more comfortable telling women they don’t understand their own experience? Do you see a pattern developing? You have dominated this thread, BTW. 🙂
pogi Posted August 28, 2018 Posted August 28, 2018 (edited) 19 minutes ago, juliann said: Pogi, you have even quoted BB saying that no one has said girls are being taught they are entirely responsible. How long are you going to keep this up? From your own lips: Quote What that tells me is that we need to work better to shape our girls and boys rather than shifting responsibility to others. What blows me away is how men immediately go to the "I'm helpless because my natural thoughts are deviant to the point I must be protected from myself by other people." Why do you want men to be seen as helpless slaves to their most puerile thoughts? Like I said, all of these rationales end with girls being made responsible for boys' thoughts. You cannot escape it. Change of heart? Edited August 28, 2018 by pogi
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