The Church and Social Justice

[dougtheavenger]

Joseph Smith once said "My cogitations, like Daniel’s, have for a long time troubled me, when I viewed the condition of men throughout the world, and more especially in this boasted realm, where the Declaration of Independence “holds these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; ... but at the same time some two or three millions of people are held as slaves for life, because the spirit in them is covered with a darker skin"

Today wages are kept artificially low by a combination of low wage immigration and government subsidy of low wages. Our government pays people to come here and work for low wages. This keeps the working poor in poverty and further enriches the wealthy. It forces tax payer's of modest means to indirectly subsidize billion dollar corporations like WalMart and McDonalds. 

Should LDS Church leaders speak out on this?

 

[LoudmouthMormon]

Wait.  Help my poor brain with math.  

Low wages= $5.

Govt paying people= $3.

Govt paying people to work for low wages =  5+3

Right?  You seem to be ticked off that $5 is low, but are you accounting for your claim that $5+3 is more than $5?  I'm trying to understand what exactly you think is wrong.  Especially when "the wealthy" are paying most of that extra $3...

Edited June 27, 2018 by LoudmouthMormon

[The Nehor]

Was-Mart is the stereotypical Reagan welfare queen. Paying people wages that do not sustain life they get all the labor of their employees without having to pay them enough to sustain a reasonable life and then the government makes up the difference. If it were not for the government those employees would be homeless messes, always hungry, and riddled with diseases because they cannot access health care. The government subsidizes their business and yet people still blame the impoverished for stealing from them.

As to should Church Leaders speak out on this? They should speak out on whatever the Lord tells them to speak out on. Our leaders do not answer to the congregation on what they need to speak on. Agitating for them to speak out on our pet views to raise awareness or whatever is not spiritually healthy.

[LoudmouthMormon]

From where I'm standing, the church has been speaking out on this for decades.  They do it by pushing, urging, begging that we all get an education, and then more education.  They do it by driving the point home that women can't rely on husbands to support them, so they should plan their lives accordingly.   They do it by doing stuff like this: https://www.lds.org/church-education/byu-pathway-worldwide?lang=eng.  They do it by pushing self-reliance and good budgeting and provident living.

Because the whole notion of tying minimum wage to a minimum living wage, is the dumbest thing in the whole world.  And there are some pretty strong contenders for that coveted title. 

[SouthernMo]

I don’t claim to be an expert in economics, but I find the idea of a minimum wage to be discriminatory.  I’ve got a brother who is autistic, and has fewer employment opportunities because of an imposed minimum wage.

https://www.creators.com/read/walter-williams/02/17/minimum-wage-and-discrimination

I admit, these issues are complex, and any ‘solution’ will have shortcomings, and people will suffer.  On the whole, while not perfect, capitalism delivers the most good to the most people (but not everyone).

[pogi]

4 hours ago, dougtheavenger said:

Joseph Smith once said "My cogitations, like Daniel’s, have for a long time troubled me, when I viewed the condition of men throughout the world, and more especially in this boasted realm, where the Declaration of Independence “holds these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; ... but at the same time some two or three millions of people are held as slaves for life, because the spirit in them is covered with a darker skin"

Today wages are kept artificially low by a combination of low wage immigration and government subsidy of low wages. Our government pays people to come here and work for low wages. This keeps the working poor in poverty and further enriches the wealthy. It forces tax payer's of modest means to indirectly subsidize billion dollar corporations like WalMart and McDonalds. 

Should LDS Church leaders speak out on this?

What do you suggest they say?

I am not quite sure what you are protesting here exactly.  Can you clarify?  Are you suggesting that the church speak out against illegal immigration, or are you suggesting that they speak out about subsidizing low-income workers?  Correct me if I am wrong, but I am pretty sure that in order to qualify for most government subsidies, you have to be a legal citizen. 

Wages are only artificially low where supply of low skilled workers is greater than demand.  There is really only one way to stop this problem.  Stop the influx/supply of low skilled laborers/illegal immigration.  Even if the government stopped subsidizing low income workers, there will STILL be the supply and demand issue.  Employers are not going to start paying their employees more if the government stops assisting low-income workers.  That's not how economics works.

So, again, what are you suggesting?

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

What do you suggest they say?

I am not quite sure what you are protesting here exactly.  Can you clarify?  Are you suggesting that the church speak out against illegal immigration, or are you suggesting that they speak out about subsidizing low-income workers?  Correct me if I am wrong, but I am pretty sure that in order to qualify for most government subsidies, you have to be a legal citizen. 

Wages are only artificially low where supply of low skilled workers is greater than demand.  There is really only one way to stop this problem.  Stop the influx/supply of low skilled laborers/illegal immigration.  Even if the government stopped subsidizing low income workers, there will STILL be the supply and demand issue.  Employers are not going to start paying their employees more if the government stops assisting low-income workers.  That's not how economics works.

So, again, what are you suggesting?

When the baby boomer retirement wave hits hard the political winds will shift towards immigration as we experience a labor shortage. Suddenly immigration will be good again as employers want to push wages back down. But I am a Doom and Gloom cynic.

[pogi]

12 hours ago, The Nehor said:

When the baby boomer retirement wave hits hard the political winds will shift towards immigration as we experience a labor shortage. Suddenly immigration will be good again as employers want to push wages back down. But I am a Doom and Gloom cynic.

Except that illegal immigrants will not be able to fill those skilled positions that require degrees, citizenship, and the ability to speak English.  They will forever saturate the low skill, low income positions.

Edited June 28, 2018 by pogi

[The Nehor]

53 minutes ago, pogi said:

Except that illegal immigrants will not be able to fill those skilled positions that require degrees, citizenship, and the ability to speak English.  They will forever saturate the low skill, low income positions.

It is possible to get a degree and learn English. They aren’t fundamentally stupid. Some already have them. I have met highly educated illegals. Happens all the time. How do you picture illegal immigrants?

As for citizenship, if the big donors want more workers they will make it happen.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

It is possible to get a degree and learn English. They aren’t fundamentally stupid. Some already have them. I have met highly educated illegals. Happens all the time. How do you picture illegal immigrants?

As for citizenship, if the big donors want more workers they will make it happen.

I never said they were stupid, but lets be realistic about the numbers:

The fact is, illegal immigrants are generally low-skilled workers who speak very little to no English, and even if they were highly educated and skilled, they would have a very hard time filling those positions without legal documentation. 

Quote

 

...the number and share of immigrants, especially the unauthorized, increased most rapidly in low-wage, low-skilled jobs. 

About 5 to 10% of undocumented students pursue higher education, and far fewer successfully graduate with a degree
(US Dept. of Education, 2015).

Case studies of California, Texas and Massachusetts revealed that, even with access to in-state tuition, undocumented
students represent only a minuscule proportion of the total enrollment at public institutions (College Board, 2009). 

By 2020, the United States will fall short by 5 million workers with post-secondary education—at the current
production rate (Georgetown Public Policy Institute: cew.georgetown.edu, 2014).

https://go.sdsu.edu/education/cescal-conference/files/06163-7_Data_One_Sheet.pdf

 

 

Quote

 

...63 percent of all Hispanic immigrants coming into the United States are functionally illiterate in English, according to the latest study.

The Center for Immigration Studies (CIS) recently published a report showing that of all the immigrants entering the U.S., 41 percent register scores at or below “functional illiteracy,” which is the lowest level of English literacy also known as “below basic.” But the lowest-percentage group to efficiently speak, read and write English are Hispanic immigrants.

Literacy in English is not just a major problem for those entering the U.S. from over the border, as a significant proportion of Hispanics who have lived in America for a good portion of their lives are illiterate in English.

“Even long-time residents struggle with English literacy,” explained Richwine, who is also a contributing writer for National Review. “Immigrants who first arrived in the United States more than 15 years ago score at the 20th percentile, and 43 percent are below basic.”

He also emphasized how low-skill immigrants’ difficulty with literacy spans far beyond their immigrant generation, noting that 67 percent of Hispanic immigrants who entered the U.S. more than 15 years ago are still functionally illiterate.

https://www.onenewsnow.com/culture/2017/06/24/63-of-hispanic-us-immigrants-not-literate-in-english

 

 

[The Nehor]

59 minutes ago, pogi said:

I never said they were stupid, but lets be realistic about the numbers:

The fact is, illegal immigrants are generally low-skilled workers who speak very little to no English, and even if they were highly educated and skilled, they would have a very hard time filling those positions without legal documentation. 

And this proves what exactly? Some are highly educated (and sometimes still work crap jobs despite that), some are not, and some have trouble communicating. How does that change what I said originally?

[pogi]

50 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

And this proves what exactly? Some are highly educated (and sometimes still work crap jobs despite that), some are not, and some have trouble communicating. How does that change what I said originally?

It just shows that while immigrants can learn English and get an education, as you suggest, the vast majority don't.  This means that illegal immigrants are not likely to fill the positions of retiring baby-boomers.  One area that is going to be hit the hardest is in my career field - nursing.  Not only are baby-boomer nurses going to be retiring (creating a huge shortage of qualified nurses),  but they are also going to be requiring more nursing care as they age.  It is a double whammy by reducing the number of workers and increasing the need for skilled nursing care. 

Illegal immigrants will not be filling those nursing positions.  There will continue to be an over-saturated market for low-skilled labor, artificially driving down income for that population, while certain fields like nursing will be severely under-saturated.  Well, at least I will have good job security! 

[The Nehor]

14 minutes ago, pogi said:

It just shows that while immigrants can learn English and get an education, as you suggest, the vast majority don't.  This means that illegal immigrants are not likely to fill the positions of retiring baby-boomers.  One area that is going to be hit the hardest is in my career field - nursing.  Not only are baby-boomer nurses going to be retiring (creating a huge shortage of qualified nurses),  but they are also going to be requiring more nursing care as they age.  It is a double whammy by reducing the number of workers and increasing the need for skilled nursing care. 

Illegal immigrants will not be filling those nursing positions.  There will continue to be an over-saturated market for low-skilled labor, artificially driving down income for that population, while certain fields like nursing will be severely under-saturated.  Well, at least I will have good job security! 

41 percent being functionally illiterate is not most.

Actually the biggest boom will be in cheap retirement homes (baby boomers were not that good at saving speaking collectively) and the non-medical staff in those places will be ideal positions for people with broken English.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

41 percent being functionally illiterate is not most.

Actually the biggest boom will be in cheap retirement homes (baby boomers were not that good at saving speaking collectively) and the non-medical staff in those places will be ideal positions for people with broken English.

Of Hispanic immigrants, which we mostly see in Utah, 63% are functionally illiterate.  Either way, 43% is very high!  Keep in mind, that is "functionally illiterate", the vast majority are still very broken English - not adequate to fill medical positions, etc

I don't think there is such a thing as a cheap retirement home - that is called living with your children.  The real issue will be long-term care facilities and assisted living facilities.  Those are definitely not cheap either, and never will be.  Geriatric care is going to become a HUGE problem in society very quickly.  There will be a lot of people who need care who don't have a lot of money, with insufficient nursing services. 

I could see illegal immigrants filling positions such as maintenance/janitorial work, cooks, dishwashers, but that is not the care that we are going to need.  As you suggest, most baby-boomers will not be able to afford those services and will likely live with family or care for themselves in their own home (which most do) if they don't require special medical services. 

Edited June 28, 2018 by pogi

[rodheadlee]

8 hours ago, pogi said:

Except that illegal immigrants will not be able to fill those skilled positions that require degrees, citizenship, and the ability to speak English.  They will forever saturate the low skill, low income positions.

Like being a carpenter, plumber etc. there are many decent paying jobs out there for those willing to put their phones and computers down long enough to learn a trade.

[pogi]

28 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Like being a carpenter, plumber etc. there are many decent paying jobs out there for those willing to put their phones and computers down long enough to learn a trade.

I agree.  I think that many do find their way into relatively well-paid construction trade jobs like drywall installation, roofing, and painting, etc.  The question is, how long before those areas become saturated as well, decreasing the wages for both illegal immigrants and legal citizens who practice those trades?  

The best thing that illegal immigrants can do for illegal immigrants is to fight illegal immigration   Fewer new poor immigrants is in the best interest of the poor immigrants who already live in our communities.  There would be more work and better paying jobs for them.  

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, pogi said:

Of Hispanic immigrants, which we mostly see in Utah, 63% are functionally illiterate.  Either way, 43% is very high!  Keep in mind, that is "functionally illiterate", the vast majority are still very broken English - not adequate to fill medical positions, etc

I don't think there is such a thing as a cheap retirement home - that is called living with your children.  The real issue will be long-term care facilities and assisted living facilities.  Those are definitely not cheap either, and never will be.  Geriatric care is going to become a HUGE problem in society very quickly.  There will be a lot of people who need care who don't have a lot of money, with insufficient nursing services. 

I could see illegal immigrants filling positions such as maintenance/janitorial work, cooks, dishwashers, but that is not the care that we are going to need.  As you suggest, most baby-boomers will not be able to afford those services and will likely live with family or care for themselves in their own home (which most do) if they don't require special medical services. 

That assumes you have children and most of the grunt work at those facilities is not done by anyone trained in medicine.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

I agree.  I think that many do find their way into relatively well-paid construction trade jobs like drywall installation, roofing, and painting, etc.  The question is, how long before those areas become saturated as well, decreasing the wages for both illegal immigrants and legal citizens who practice those trades?  

The best thing that illegal immigrants can do for illegal immigrants is to fight illegal immigration   Fewer new poor immigrants is in the best interest of the poor immigrants who already live in our communities.  There would be more work and better paying jobs for them.  

In the same way I would be advantaged if every college and university were shut down. My degree would suddenly much more valuable but wishing that to be so would also make me a terrible person.

[rodheadlee]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

I agree.  I think that many do find their way into relatively well-paid construction trade jobs like drywall installation, roofing, and painting, etc.  The question is, how long before those areas become saturated as well, decreasing the wages for both illegal immigrants and legal citizens who practice those trades?  

The best thing that illegal immigrants can do for illegal immigrants is to fight illegal immigration   Fewer new poor immigrants is in the best interest of the poor immigrants who already live in our communities.  There would be more work and better paying jobs for them.  

That already happened back in the 1980s. It's come full circle and they want the same money everyone else gets.

[Robert F. Smith]

On 6/27/2018 at 11:32 AM, dougtheavenger said:

.........................................Today wages are kept artificially low by a combination of low wage immigration and government subsidy of low wages. Our government pays people to come here and work for low wages. This keeps the working poor in poverty and further enriches the wealthy. It forces tax payer's of modest means to indirectly subsidize billion dollar corporations like WalMart and McDonalds. ...............................

 

On 6/27/2018 at 1:00 PM, The Nehor said:

Was-Mart is the stereotypical Reagan welfare queen. Paying people wages that do not sustain life they get all the labor of their employees without having to pay them enough to sustain a reasonable life and then the government makes up the difference. If it were not for the government those employees would be homeless messes, always hungry, and riddled with diseases because they cannot access health care. The government subsidizes their business and yet people still blame the impoverished for stealing from them..................

 

On 6/27/2018 at 2:55 PM, LoudmouthMormon said:

.......................Because the whole notion of tying minimum wage to a minimum living wage, is the dumbest thing in the whole world.  And there are some pretty strong contenders for that coveted title. 

 

On 6/27/2018 at 3:48 PM, SouthernMo said:

I don’t claim to be an expert in economics, but I find the idea of a minimum wage to be discriminatory.  I’ve got a brother who is autistic, and has fewer employment opportunities because of an imposed minimum wage..........................

I admit, these issues are complex, and any ‘solution’ will have shortcomings, and people will suffer.  On the whole, while not perfect, capitalism delivers the most good to the most people (but not everyone).

Miserable humans are always coming up with their wonderfully self-assured political and economic theories.  They don't really like God's way, and will substitute almost anything else in its place -- even though those other systems just don't work that well, except for the wealthy and avaricious Zoramites, who say:

Quote

Thou hast elected us that we shall be saved, whilst all around us are elected to be cast by thy wrath down to hell; for the which holiness, O God, we thank thee; and we also thank thee that thou hast elected us, that we may not be led away after the foolish traditions of our brethren, which doth bind them down to a belief of Christ, which doth lead their hearts to wander far from thee, our God.
And again we thank thee, O God, that we are a chosen and a holy people. Amen.  (Alma 31:17-18)

 

[SouthernMo]

11 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 

 

 

Miserable humans are always coming up with their wonderfully self-assured political and economic theories.  They don't really like God's way, and will substitute almost anything else in its place -- even though those other systems just don't work that well, except for the wealthy and avaricious Zoramites, who say:

 

Would love to get your thoughts on what the optimal economic system is. (I read your book - LOVED IT - by the way)

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 

 

 

Miserable humans are always coming up with their wonderfully self-assured political and economic theories.  They don't really like God's way, and will substitute almost anything else in its place -- even though those other systems just don't work that well, except for the wealthy and avaricious Zoramites, who say:

 

My favorite approach is the United Order but God won’t implement the stupid thing.

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

Would love to get your thoughts on what the optimal economic system is. (I read your book - LOVED IT - by the way)

Which book was that?

[SouthernMo]

5 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Which book was that?

Teaching for Doctrine the Commandments of Men

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, SouthernMo said:

Teaching for Doctrine the Commandments of Men

Oh my goodness.

Although we are generally at odds when it come to economics and politics, Robert is a fine fellow, and I respect him a lot.  

So I am sorry, Robert, this just made me laugh my freaking head off.  😂  I have seldom run into so such a well-crafted verbal wrestling move. 

I don't really think that @Robert F. Smith teaches for doctrine the commandments of men, at least in regards to gospel principles.  I think we can agree to disagree on economic systems, however, and perhaps even agree a little bit that economic systems built on the exercise of free agency are to be preferred to those built on compulsion.