We can each have our own testimonies

[mrmarklin]

20 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

Why is Scientology a less legitimate belief system than Mormonism?

Still Trolling??

Other than the fact the Holy Spirit will not confirm your analysis, it is a logical concept. 

You're the one who wants to believe.  Believe in Scientology....why not????  Keep repeating your belief, and then you can have a testimony.

Edited May 23, 2018 by mrmarklin

[mrmarklin]

On ‎5‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 10:24 AM, FormerLDS said:

How do you know it was the "Holy Spirit"?

What if I told you that what you assume to be the Holy Spirit was actually "another spirit" mentioned in 2 Corinthians 11:4?

You obviously have never experienced the Holy Spirit.  Believe me when I say ONE KNOWS.

[cinepro]

23 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

You obviously have never experienced the Holy Spirit.  Believe me when I say ONE KNOWS.

No one is doubting the surety of knowledge gained by experiencing the Holy Spirit.

The problem is that sometimes that knowledge be wrong.  It varies from person to person, but I would estimate that the reliability of knowledge from the Holy Ghost is somewhere between 50 - 80% (so, coin toss at the worst, 4/5 chance of being right at the best).

[Marginal Gains]

37 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

Nice Troll.

 

But nonsense.  And not what it taught by our prophets.

I took the words out of Elder Packers mouth, was he talking nonsense then?

[FormerLDS]

20 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Of course you don't, and that is generally true of evangelicals as well.  However, those familiar with Holy Writ know very well that it is the Holy Spirit which reveals such matters to man, and that is what Jesus is saying.   Scholars read texts as actually intended by the author.  Perhaps you could tell us your theory of how Peter's Father in Heaven revealed it to him.  Have you bothered to read the New Testament with a view to finding out what the Holy Spirit does?  That might be a good first step.

Here's my theory: Heavenly Father revealed to Peter that Jesus was the Christ because that's what Jesus Christ plainly said.  Here's the Holy Writ - again, still waiting for you to show me where you see anything about the Holy Ghost in here:

"And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

If you're wrong about the Holy Spirit revealing Christ to Peter, then what does that say about the other assertions you're making?

20 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I note here that you do not dare to mention the Holy Spirit, which was central to Moroni's challenge.  Why are you afraid to deal with the Holy Spirit?  That is so characteristic of evangelicals when they are attacking Mormons.  They are deeply fearful of dealing with actual biblical theology.  Dr Richard Mouw, evangelical Presbyterian pastor, and former President of Fuller Theological Seminary, has said repeatedly that his fellow evangelicals have had a policy of lying about Mormons, and he has apologized for it.

So, again, how does one know if Moroni's test really is God's test for truth?

For example, what if I told you that a lit match is a reliable test for a gas leak.  It works every time, but with very unfortunate consequences for those who don't heed what we already know about gas and fire.

Heavenly Father warns us very plainly that the "heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked.  Who can know it?"

You can't read the "Holy Spirit" into what is plainly not in the scriptures friends.

[FormerLDS]

1 hour ago, mrmarklin said:

You obviously have never experienced the Holy Spirit.  Believe me when I say ONE KNOWS.

I've shared my LDS testimony of reading the Book of Mormon many times on this board over the years, and I do not doubt Moroni's promise or recant the supernatural feelings that I felt.

So yes, I do believe you and I do know first hand from personal experience.

[mfbukowski]

23 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

The real conundrum for LDS is the fact that nowhere in the Bible does God equate a feeling in the heart with a test of truth.  It's not there folks!

LDS must believe that moroni's promise is God's test of truth with the same blind faith for which they criticize non-members.

I am trying to be charitable but TO ME the absurdity of these statements is yelling out so loudly that I cannot hear your message.

So why is it that you believe that the death of Jesus has ANYTHING to do with forgiving YOUR sins?  The fact that the bible has historical evidence for its existence proves that YOUR SINS are forgiven?

What about the hundreds of other equally old documents people call "scripture" which disagree with that position??

Where is the proof of that found OTHER THAN in your FEELINGS about the truth of the bible?

Talk about people who live in glass houses....

And when one hears the altar call to "accept Jesus" does one also apply the same standard of truth?

The circular logic is just blinding here and it's all I can see.  Please convince me otherwise. 

But I have asked you about this before and the silence is always deafening.

 

[mfbukowski]

On 5/22/2018 at 10:24 AM, FormerLDS said:

How do you know it was the "Holy Spirit"?

What if I told you that what you assume to be the Holy Spirit was actually "another spirit" mentioned in 2 Corinthians 11:4?

And what if I told you it was that other spirit telling you the bible is true?

How do you know the difference?

Circular circular circular.

What am I missing here?  Please convert me to the truth!

Edited May 23, 2018 by mfbukowski

[mrmarklin]

1 hour ago, Marginal Gains said:

I took the words out of Elder Packers mouth, was he talking nonsense then?

He's certainly entitled to his opinions.

[mfbukowski]

12 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

What would be the objective indicators of a false Church (or a true one if you prefer), other than ones own internal ‘feeling’?

There are no objective indicators.

Religion is not about objective indicators.  Get some education in philosophy please- you are spouting foolishness every time you write a sentence.

What is your objective indicator that your significant other should be your significant other?

Or that murder is wrong?  Or that the planet is worth saving or whatever else you hold dear should be held dear?

You will never get this, even if you were sincere in your questions.  I only answer you in the small chance that there are others here who actually do not see your insincere games being played.

Logical positivism is dead. Look it up.

Here's one of probably hundreds of links you won't look up, read, or understand, at least for those interested:

http://positivists.org/blog/archives/2981

 

[mrmarklin]

22 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

I've shared my LDS testimony of reading the Book of Mormon many times on this board over the years, and I do not doubt Moroni's promise or recant the supernatural feelings that I felt.

So yes, I do believe you and I do know first hand from personal experience.

Then why are you spewing nonsense???

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

I took the words out of Elder Packers mouth, was he talking nonsense then?

If that is the only category you see, then what you see is what you get.

After all, it shows your total subjectivity in pretending you can be "objective" when clearly you are no such thing. 

 

Edited May 23, 2018 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

On 5/22/2018 at 10:24 AM, FormerLDS said:

How do you know it was the "Holy Spirit"?

What if I told you that what you assume to be the Holy Spirit was actually "another spirit" mentioned in 2 Corinthians 11:4?

Does the Holy Spirit make people babble irrationally and dance around?  Rolling around on the ground and handling poisonous snakes?

Is that logical behavior derived from purely rational thoughts without feeling or emotion?

Just wondering what your view is on that but of course I do not expect that you will actually answer.

Actually one of the reasons I joined the Mormons was because they were the only group who acknowledged boldly what I thought was obvious- that God communicates through feelings.

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

Here's my theory: Heavenly Father revealed to Peter that Jesus was the Christ because that's what Jesus Christ plainly said.  Here's the Holy Writ - again, still waiting for you to show me where you see anything about the Holy Ghost in here:

"And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

Matt 16:17 interpreted in The New Oxford Annotated Bible with Apocrypha, NRSV (OUP, 1991), NT 24n, “Revealed, understanding spiritual realities involves God’s disclosure (See 11.25n; Lk 24:16; 1 Cor 1:18-25; 2:6-16).”  How does such revelation (revealing) take place?  By the Holy Spirit being sent into our hearts (Gal 4:6).  See also Lk 24:32 “They said to each other: ‘Were not our hearts burning within us while he [Jesus] was talking to us on the road, while he was opening the scriptures to us?’” 

4 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

If you're wrong about the Holy Spirit revealing Christ to Peter, then what does that say about the other assertions you're making?

Peter himself believes that the Holy Spirit reveals such knowledge to people -- on the occasion of his great sermon (Acts 2:17 = Joel 2:28), declaring specifically that what they witnessed and learned that day came via the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:33), all that taking place at Pentecost, which is the Jewish celebration of the great theophany on Mt Sinai (Shavuot, the Feast of Weeks).  What is the source of such theophanies?  The Holy Spirit.

4 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

So, again, how does one know if Moroni's test really is God's test for truth?................Heavenly Father warns us very plainly that the "heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked.  Who can know it?"  You can't read the "Holy Spirit" into what is plainly not in the scriptures friends.

The Holy Spirit descends on Jesus in a physical form, like a dove (Lk 3:22 NRSV)
Jesus is led by the Holy Spirit (Lk 4:1 NJB), which gives him power (4:14,18 = Isa 61:1).
Jesus selected his apostles by the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:2 NJB).

When young Joseph went out into the woods to pray, he went based on the claim in James 1:5-8 that God will answer prayer with knowledge/wisdom.  That passage emphasizes faith, and Paul says that we receive the Holy Spirit through faith (Gal 3:14,22).  What other mechanism is the source of our faith?

One might well ask why it is that you hate the Holy Spirit?  Is it just spite?

[changed]

On 5/20/2018 at 6:41 PM, CMZ said:

 

We can each have our own testimonies. A testimony does not come by pestering the "TBM's" into producing sufficient overwhelming intellectual evidence of the truthfulness of the Church.

I have a testimony that this life is not the end - I do not have a testimony in church leadership.  

Encouraging people to gain a testimony in Jesus, Heavenly Father, the Spirit is great!

Encouraging people to gain a testimony in prophets, apostles, and other church leaders - to have a testimony in the "arm of flesh" - this is wrong I think.  Telling people to rely on other people - to "follow the prophet" is teaching them to follow borrowed light... that really bothers me.

[changed]

On 5/22/2018 at 12:24 PM, FormerLDS said:

How do you know it was the "Holy Spirit"?

What if I told you that what you assume to be the Holy Spirit was actually "another spirit" mentioned in 2 Corinthians 11:4?

 

You are correct - you cannot know it is the Holy Spirit.

I think the best thing to have a testimony of is to support anything that supports kindness, charity, hope, grace - just stick with the basics, support honesty, humility, - support principles.  Allow principles to be your light.  Anything that entices to do good?  follow it.  Anything that seems to cater to the natural person?  stay away from it.  simple as that.

Edited May 24, 2018 by changed

[pogi]

31 minutes ago, changed said:

Encouraging people to gain a testimony in...the Spirit is great!

29 minutes ago, changed said:

You are correct - you cannot know it is the Holy Spirit.

I am confused.

32 minutes ago, changed said:

I have a testimony that this life is not the end 

Based on what?

30 minutes ago, changed said:

Anything that entices to do good?  follow it.  Anything that seems to cater to the natural person?  stay away from it.  simple as that.

I agree, but...what is good?  How do you know?

[Glenn101]

6 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

8 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

 

I've shared my LDS testimony of reading the Book of Mormon many times on this board over the years, and I do not doubt Moroni's promise or recant the supernatural feelings that I felt.

So yes, I do believe you and I do know first hand from personal experience.

So, why are you formerLDS?

Glenn

[Glenn101]

33 minutes ago, changed said:

You are correct - you cannot know it is the Holy Spirit.

I disagree. I have been enticed by Satan and communicated with the Holy Ghost. You can know.

Glenn

[pogi]

7 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

So, again, how does one know if Moroni's test really is God's test for truth?

James 1:5, and other such passages (cross references) found in the link below  It is not just Moroni's promise.  Please read them all:

https://www.openbible.info/labs/cross-references/search?q=James+1%3A5

But above and beyond the ink found in these pages, I know because the ineffable Holy Spirit witnesses it to me in a language uncorrupted by the human tongue.  It is "first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere."  Notice that the wisdom of God comes in peaceable, gentle, feelings...

Quote

But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere. (James 3:17)

Quote

Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will hear you. You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart. (Jeremiah 29:12-13)

If you want to know, do the works - Alma 32.  The evidence is in the fruits - parable of the sower. 

Is the pure ineffable wisdom of God found in ink?  Is it found in the corrupt tongue of man?  Can it be purchased with gold, like a Bible or the Book of Mormon?

Quote

“But where shall wisdom be found? And where is the place of understanding? Man does not know its worth, and it is not found in the land of the living. The deep says, ‘It is not in me,’ and the sea says, ‘It is not with me.’ It cannot be bought for gold, and silver cannot be weighed as its price. It cannot be valued in the gold of Ophir, in precious onyx or sapphire. (Job 28:12-28)

Or, is it found written on our fleshy hearts? (Jeremiah 31:33).

The incorruptible Word of God is the Lord, who resides in our hearts. 

God is manifested in love...He is love...a feeling.

Scriptures are seeds, but the fruit of the scriptures can only be tasted and understood in our hearts (parable of the sower). 

 

 

Edited May 24, 2018 by pogi

[CMZ]

1 hour ago, changed said:

I have a testimony that this life is not the end - I do not have a testimony in church leadership.  

Encouraging people to gain a testimony in Jesus, Heavenly Father, the Spirit is great!

Encouraging people to gain a testimony in prophets, apostles, and other church leaders - to have a testimony in the "arm of flesh" - this is wrong I think.  Telling people to rely on other people - to "follow the prophet" is teaching them to follow borrowed light... that really bothers me.

changed, wow.... We actually do encourage people to have "a testimony in Jesus, Heavenly Father, the Spirit." All the other stuff is secondary.

Quote

The Prophet Joseph Smith was often asked, “What are the fundamental principles of your religion?”

“The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.”

https://jesuschrist.lds.org/his-life-and-teachings/articles/who-is-jesus-christ?lang=eng

The prophets and apostles and other Church leaders point to Christ.

Quote

A prophet does not stand between you and the Savior. Rather, he stands beside you and points the way to the Savior.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2018/04/the-prophet-of-god?lang=eng

The sad, sad thing is that no matter how much this is taught someone who simply does not care will ignore it and come along and say, "You're not supposed to have a testimony in the arm of flesh. You're supposed to have a testimony of Jesus. 🙄 changed, if you paid attention to things like general conference your concerns would be resolved.

Quote

What an incomparable gift comes to those who put their faith in Jesus Christ. That gift is the Holy Spirit giving us what the New Testament calls “life in Christ.”

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2018/04/take-the-holy-spirit-as-your-guide?lang=eng

 

[changed]

8 hours ago, CMZ said:

The prophets and apostles and other Church leaders point to Christ.

 

Not always.  I turned in my temple recommend because I have zero faith in the priesthood.  I've fought with 2 very bad apples in leadership positions (one is now in jail for the rest of their life), and it was not just those apples - it was everyone who supported them, put them into leadership positions, and perpetuated the situation for years.  

This I am fine with:

1. Do you have faith in and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost?

2 Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer?

 

I am now not so sure about this:

3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days?

 

Is this correct, the word "sustain" is used, not "testimony"?  I think I can do sustain, but not testimony.  

"Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?"

 

 

 

[changed]

9 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

I disagree. I have been enticed by Satan and communicated with the Holy Ghost. You can know.

Glenn

So, because you have had experience with one of the billions of spirits out there, you are an authority figure for everyone?

I think most of us have had experience with the spirits here - experience with deceased ancestors (who may or may not be considered fallen angels) and with all variety of spirits.  The spirits are all just people - as varied as the people of the earth, and to be trusted as much as you would trust any person on earth - they are just people.  

[changed]

10 hours ago, pogi said:

I am confused.

Based on what?

I agree, but...what is good?  How do you know?

 

What is knowledge, what is belief for anyone.   I know the spirits are real as well as I know anything else.  We each have a conscience - the light of Christ.  If we all followed our own conscience, that is what was given to each of us, and all we need.

[pogi]

26 minutes ago, changed said:

 

What is knowledge, what is belief for anyone.   I know the spirits are real as well as I know anything else.  We each have a conscience - the light of Christ.  If we all followed our own conscience, that is what was given to each of us, and all we need.

I was confused at how you can have a testimony of the Holy Ghost and not know what it is or when it speaks to you.

I agree that our conscience is our primary guide, but how would you know about any of this without the words of the prophets?  It is the prophets who revealed God to us in the first place - that taught us how to have a personal relationship with God.

What if your conscience tells you to follow a prophet? Suddenly your conscience isn’t all you need anymore .  You also need those teachers etc. whom your conscience directs you to.  That is how you gain a testimony of the mantle of a prophet, and not so much of the imperfect man himself.

Edited May 24, 2018 by pogi