FormerLDS Posted May 24, 2018 Posted May 24, 2018 19 hours ago, mfbukowski said: On 5/22/2018 at 12:24 PM, FormerLDS said: How do you know it was the "Holy Spirit"? What if I told you that what you assume to be the Holy Spirit was actually "another spirit" mentioned in 2 Corinthians 11:4? And what if I told you it was that other spirit telling you the bible is true? How do you know the difference? Circular circular circular. What am I missing here? Please convert me to the truth! Edited 19 hours ago by mfbukowski A spirit didn't tell me the Bible is true. It's a choice that I made because I read it and and studied it and I simply chose to believe what I read was the truth. What are you missing? Eternal life. That's exactly what you're missing.
FormerLDS Posted May 24, 2018 Posted May 24, 2018 19 hours ago, mrmarklin said: 20 hours ago, FormerLDS said: I've shared my LDS testimony of reading the Book of Mormon many times on this board over the years, and I do not doubt Moroni's promise or recant the supernatural feelings that I felt. So yes, I do believe you and I do know first hand from personal experience. Then why are you spewing nonsense??? Why do I serve Him by sharing the truth with others? Because the Savior gave me eternal life and because I have eternal life, I try to obey the laws and ordinances of the gospel.
mfbukowski Posted May 24, 2018 Posted May 24, 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: A spirit didn't tell me the Bible is true. It's a choice that I made because I read it and and studied it and I simply chose to believe what I read was the truth. What are you missing? Eternal life. That's exactly what you're missing. I think you have lost total credibility. You "decided" after studying and "chose to believe" Uh huh. Based on legends including the sun stopping and talking donkeys and people coming back from the dead and people foretelling the future and 2000 year old accounts of healings and other miraculous events that reading this stuff will give you "eternal life". Uh huh Clearly totally based on logic. Sorry I call this "denial", big time. You read a book full of -arguably- legends and fantasies and decide that from doing so you will live forever, without spiritual influence helping you decide it was "true". Uh huh. I have some investments I'd like to show you..... Edited May 24, 2018 by mfbukowski 1
FormerLDS Posted May 24, 2018 Posted May 24, 2018 16 hours ago, mfbukowski said: On 5/22/2018 at 12:24 PM, FormerLDS said: How do you know it was the "Holy Spirit"? What if I told you that what you assume to be the Holy Spirit was actually "another spirit" mentioned in 2 Corinthians 11:4? Does the Holy Spirit make people babble irrationally and dance around? Rolling around on the ground and handling poisonous snakes? Is that logical behavior derived from purely rational thoughts without feeling or emotion? Just wondering what your view is on that but of course I do not expect that you will actually answer. Actually one of the reasons I joined the Mormons was because they were the only group who acknowledged boldly what I thought was obvious- that God communicates through feelings. The Savior plainly tells us that Holy Ghost will only do according to the words of Jesus Christ. He will teach us and bring the the words of Jesus Christ to our remembrance. No rain dancing, snakes and poison or spooky feelings! "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26 Like a train can only travel on a track, the Holy Ghost will only do according to the words of Jesus Christ. Again, no reference to confirmational feelings here.
mfbukowski Posted May 24, 2018 Posted May 24, 2018 9 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Why do I serve Him by sharing the truth with others? Because the Savior gave me eternal life and because I have eternal life, I try to obey the laws and ordinances of the gospel. And you know this how? You know you will live forever when you also know that everyone dies and you believe the savior "gave you eternal life" and there was NO spiritual influence. Holy cow dude. I just can't stop shaking my head.
mfbukowski Posted May 24, 2018 Posted May 24, 2018 3 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: The Savior plainly tells us that Holy Ghost will only do according to the words of Jesus Christ. He will teach us and bring the the words of Jesus Christ to our remembrance. No rain dancing, snakes and poison or spooky feelings! "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26 Like a train can only travel on a track, the Holy Ghost will only do according to the words of Jesus Christ. Again, no reference to confirmational feelings here. Fine so Jesus Christ told you, not some entity called the "holy spirit"- is that all you are saying?? You are changing the name of the spiritual influence who taught you? I have no problem with that- what's the difference? You would actually change churches because of the name given to an invisible entity who defies human description anyway??
mfbukowski Posted May 24, 2018 Posted May 24, 2018 6 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: The Savior plainly tells us that Holy Ghost will only do according to the words of Jesus Christ. He will teach us and bring the the words of Jesus Christ to our remembrance. No rain dancing, snakes and poison or spooky feelings! "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26 Like a train can only travel on a track, the Holy Ghost will only do according to the words of Jesus Christ. Again, no reference to confirmational feelings here. HOW IS HE GOING TO TEACH YOU without confirmational feelings?? Words in your mind? Fine- that is still an invisible entity communicating with you no matter what you call it!!! This is about semantics!!!
FormerLDS Posted May 24, 2018 Posted May 24, 2018 15 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: 20 hours ago, FormerLDS said: Here's my theory: Heavenly Father revealed to Peter that Jesus was the Christ because that's what Jesus Christ plainly said. Here's the Holy Writ - again, still waiting for you to show me where you see anything about the Holy Ghost in here: "And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." Matt 16:17 interpreted in The New Oxford Annotated Bible with Apocrypha, NRSV (OUP, 1991), NT 24n, “Revealed, understanding spiritual realities involves God’s disclosure (See 11.25n; Lk 24:16; 1 Cor 1:18-25; 2:6-16).” How does such revelation (revealing) take place? By the Holy Spirit being sent into our hearts (Gal 4:6). See also Lk 24:32 “They said to each other: ‘Were not our hearts burning within us while he [Jesus] was talking to us on the road, while he was opening the scriptures to us?’” So the Holy Spirit is being sent into our hearts and that's how revelations takes place? In other words, feeling in the heart = God's test of truth. Let's take a look at the verses you provided: Gal 4:6 "And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father." Where do you see anything here about feelings from the Holy Spirit? Lk 24:32 "And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?" Again, where do you see anything here about feelings from the Holy Spirit? If anything, Luke 24 teaches us that the feeling in the heart did NOT open their eyes to the truth. Furthermore, that feeling didn't come from the Holy Spirit - you have to read that into what isn't actually there! God's test of truth isn't spiritual heartburn. The words and actions of Jesus Christ opened their eyes, not a feeling in their hearts. 16 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: The Holy Spirit descends on Jesus in a physical form, like a dove (Lk 3:22 NRSV) Jesus is led by the Holy Spirit (Lk 4:1 NJB), which gives him power (4:14,18 = Isa 61:1). Jesus selected his apostles by the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:2 NJB). When young Joseph went out into the woods to pray, he went based on the claim in James 1:5-8 that God will answer prayer with knowledge/wisdom. That passage emphasizes faith, and Paul says that we receive the Holy Spirit through faith (Gal 3:14,22). What other mechanism is the source of our faith? One might well ask why it is that you hate the Holy Spirit? Is it just spite? Again, nowhere in these passages does the Bible equate a feeling in the heart with God's test of truth. Everything the Holy Spirit did, does and will do is exactly as the word of God plainly says He will do. What other mechanism is the source of our faith? In Romans 1017 the Bible plainly tells us that "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." The source of faith isn't a spooky feeling in our hearts, it's the word of God. Acts 8:35-37 plainly describes the process of hearing and believing the word of God as the source of faith: "Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." There's no spooky confirmational feelings mentioned in this passage or any other passage in the Bible.
mfbukowski Posted May 24, 2018 Posted May 24, 2018 3 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: So the Holy Spirit is being sent into our hearts and that's how revelations takes place? In other words, feeling in the heart = God's test of truth. Let's take a look at the verses you provided: Gal 4:6 "And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father." Where do you see anything here about feelings from the Holy Spirit? Lk 24:32 "And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?" Again, where do you see anything here about feelings from the Holy Spirit? If anything, Luke 24 teaches us that the feeling in the heart did NOT open their eyes to the truth. Furthermore, that feeling didn't come from the Holy Spirit - you have to read that into what isn't actually there! God's test of truth isn't spiritual heartburn. The words and actions of Jesus Christ opened their eyes, not a feeling in their hearts. Again, nowhere in these passages does the Bible equate a feeling in the heart with God's test of truth. Everything the Holy Spirit did, does and will do is exactly as the word of God plainly says He will do. What other mechanism is the source of our faith? In Romans 1017 the Bible plainly tells us that "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." The source of faith isn't a spooky feeling in our hearts, it's the word of God. Acts 8:35-37 plainly describes the process of hearing and believing the word of God as the source of faith: "Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." There's no spooky confirmational feelings mentioned in this passage or any other passage in the Bible. Oh my Gosh. Confirmed in my heart: Nothing more to say here to this guy. Pure contradiction after contradiction- nothing here but confusion.
Tacenda Posted May 24, 2018 Posted May 24, 2018 17 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Oh my Gosh. Confirmed in my heart: Nothing more to say here to this guy. Pure contradiction after contradiction- nothing here but confusion. His post is clear as the back of my hand when I read it. I'm surprised that you find it so confusing. He is saying that the word of God is enough to give one an understanding, not a feeling, feelings are deceiving.
mfbukowski Posted May 24, 2018 Posted May 24, 2018 12 minutes ago, Tacenda said: His post is clear as the back of my hand when I read it. I'm surprised that you find it so confusing. He is saying that the word of God is enough to give one an understanding, not a feeling, feelings are deceiving. Oh gosh. And how do you know what the word of God IS?? By feeling. I tell you what. Everything I write is the word of God. Just listen to me and I will tell you everything you need, ok? Oh wait. I didn't live 2000 years ago so I must be lying.
Tacenda Posted May 24, 2018 Posted May 24, 2018 (edited) 14 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Oh gosh. And how do you know what the word of God IS?? By feeling. I tell you what. Everything I write is the word of God. Just listen to me and I will tell you everything you need, ok? Oh wait. I didn't live 2000 years ago so I must be lying. Can going on a feeling reveal truth? To me, it takes study, and time, and facts. I know I don't do enough of this. Mind you, my great grandmother went by feeling when she joined the church. She felt it in her bosom that what the missionaries taught was right, and she enjoyed the LDS hymns. That alone was enough for her. I guess I shouldn't mock her for doing this, and she might be looking down at me very ashamed right now. ETA: So far, my reading of what FormerLDS is saying, is correct to me. Edited May 24, 2018 by Tacenda
CMZ Posted May 24, 2018 Author Posted May 24, 2018 5 hours ago, changed said: Not always. I turned in my temple recommend because I have zero faith in the priesthood. I've fought with 2 very bad apples in leadership positions (one is now in jail for the rest of their life), and it was not just those apples - it was everyone who supported them, put them into leadership positions, and perpetuated the situation for years. This I am fine with: 1. Do you have faith in and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost? 2 Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer? I am now not so sure about this: 3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days? Is this correct, the word "sustain" is used, not "testimony"? I think I can do sustain, but not testimony. "Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?" I am genuinely sorry that you had such negative experiences. They should have never happened. In a church with a lay ministry (at least at the local level) and lots of people there's bound to be issues from time to time. That does not excuse any particular instance but I am seeing more of a push within the Church to hold to the true doctrine of Christ and to do away with any of the good ol' boys club mentality that was never, ever supposed to be present, but does seem to have crept in here and there. No amount of some local leader doing wrong is justified, no matter how much others jump in and wrongly support them. I grew up with it being taught frequently enough to not lose your testimony because some other imperfect person in the Church behaves less than appropriately. Remember that when we talk about "the priesthood" we are supposed to be referring to the power of God and not to whatever group of men happens to hold it at any given time. Quote Dallin H. Oaks The Melchizedek Priesthood is not a status or a label. It is a divine power held in trust to use for the benefit of God’s work for His children. We should always remember that men who hold the priesthood are not “the priesthood.” It is not appropriate to refer to “the priesthood and the women.” We should refer to “the holders of the priesthood and the women.”https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2018/04/the-powers-of-the-priesthood?lang=eng When we believe in the Bible, and you do seem to, it's quite hard to get around the fact that God called prophets to represent him and to point the way to Christ. Furthermore, he called people who had their own imperfections and others had to deal with the imperfections of the prophets. I fully agree that it may not be the most ideal situation ever. We just have to accept it as what happens when a lot of not-quite-perfect-yet people are living on the same planet. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted May 24, 2018 Posted May 24, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, FormerLDS said: So the Holy Spirit is being sent into our hearts and that's how revelations takes place? In other words, feeling in the heart = God's test of truth. Let's take a look at the verses you provided: Gal 4:6 "And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father." Where do you see anything here about feelings from the Holy Spirit? Lk 24:32 "And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?" Again, where do you see anything here about feelings from the Holy Spirit? If anything, Luke 24 teaches us that the feeling in the heart did NOT open their eyes to the truth. Furthermore, that feeling didn't come from the Holy Spirit - you have to read that into what isn't actually there! God's test of truth isn't spiritual heartburn. The words and actions of Jesus Christ opened their eyes, not a feeling in their hearts. Again, nowhere in these passages does the Bible equate a feeling in the heart with God's test of truth. Everything the Holy Spirit did, does and will do is exactly as the word of God plainly says He will do. What other mechanism is the source of our faith? In Romans 1017 the Bible plainly tells us that "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." The source of faith isn't a spooky feeling in our hearts, it's the word of God. Acts 8:35-37 plainly describes the process of hearing and believing the word of God as the source of faith: "Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." There's no spooky confirmational feelings mentioned in this passage or any other passage in the Bible. Throughout your diatribe here, you obsessively repeat the word "feeling" as "spooky," and "in the heart," and as God's supposed "test of truth," even though I make no such claims. You have invented a straw man, instead of dealing with the actual meaning of the passages I cited. You prefer to blaspheme the Holy Spirit rather than deal with the biblical texts -- only because of your a priori anti-Mormon beliefs. In so doing you reject the normal meaning of those texts, and indeed even the normal application of the Holy Spirit in mainstream Christian contexts: In Sacramento, California, Billy Graham took as his text for a sermon, "The Holy Spirit and You," John 14:16-18, "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5XFLqyWjqc . Everything you say about the Holy Spirit is a blasphemous denial of what Graham had to say. Unlike you, I respected Graham and his ministry, and I accept what he had to say about the Holy Spirit, while you openly reject his words. He never denigrates the Holy Spirit with absurd references to "spiritual heartburn," or "spookiness." Why? Because, unlike you, he respects the Holy Spirit. According to non-Mormon scholar, Luke Timothy Johnson, "the Spirit is the primary means of God’s interacting with the Church, especially to its ordinary members.” L. T. Johnson, Gospel of Luke (Liturgical Press, 1991), 17-18. For you that interaction is devoid of meaning, since you only look at texts -- which you do not know how to read. For you a truly charismatic religious experience is not possible, which contradicts everything the Bible plainly says: James D.G. Dunn, Jesus and the Spirit: A Study of the Religious and Charismatic Experience of Jesus and the First Christians as Reflected in the New Testament (Phila: Westminster, 1975). Evangelical scholar William Lane Craig himself observes of his own personal saving experience, his teenage "spiritual rebirth," Quote I still think this experiential approach to the resurrection is a perfectly valid way to knowing that Christ has risen. It's the way that most Christians today know that Jesus is risen and alive. "Is There Historical Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus?" A Debate between William Lane Craig and Bart Ehrman at College of the Holy Cross, Worcester, Massachusetts, March 28, 2006, online at http://www.bartdehrman.com/pdf/resurrection_debate.pdf . Why do you reject this testimony of the actions of the Holy Spirit? Edited May 24, 2018 by Robert F. Smith 1
Tacenda Posted May 24, 2018 Posted May 24, 2018 1 hour ago, mfbukowski said: I think you have lost total credibility. You "decided" after studying and "chose to believe" Uh huh. Based on legends including the sun stopping and talking donkeys and people coming back from the dead and people foretelling the future and 2000 year old accounts of healings and other miraculous events that reading this stuff will give you "eternal life". Uh huh Clearly totally based on logic. Sorry I call this "denial", big time. You read a book full of -arguably- legends and fantasies and decide that from doing so you will live forever, without spiritual influence helping you decide it was "true". Uh huh. I have some investments I'd like to show you..... I'm so blown away by you and mfbukowski's comments to FormerLDS. So blown away that the both of you are so critical to what he is saying, and then you just made fun of things in the Bible. If a nonLDS Christian read this comment it would verify to them that you aren't Christian. Of course at one time LDS didn't ever want to refer to themselves as even being a "Christian". Maybe FormerLDS did read about the talking donkey and thought hmmm, maybe they ate the mushroom nearby? Okay, I firmly believe there are reasons for some things said in the Bible and not all are true to me. Maybe, just maybe, FormerLDS, gained truth by thoughtful reasoning out. Now if one goes by feeling alone, I'll bet someone could believe in a talking donkey.
CMZ Posted May 24, 2018 Author Posted May 24, 2018 50 minutes ago, Tacenda said: His post is clear as the back of my hand when I read it. I'm surprised that you find it so confusing. He is saying that the word of God is enough to give one an understanding, not a feeling, feelings are deceiving. Feelings can be deceiving, but human understanding can be deceived, too. This is why D&C 8:2 says, "Yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart." As Robert is pointing out it is only a straw man when someone insists Mormons are only about "feelings in their heart." That's part of the equation, but not the whole thing.
CMZ Posted May 24, 2018 Author Posted May 24, 2018 3 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I'm so blown away by you and mfbukowski's comments to FormerLDS. So blown away that the both of you are so critical to what he is saying, and then you just made fun of things in the Bible. If a nonLDS Christian read this comment it would verify to them that you aren't Christian. Of course at one time LDS didn't ever want to refer to themselves as even being a "Christian". Maybe FormerLDS did read about the talking donkey and thought hmmm, maybe they ate the mushroom nearby? Okay, I firmly believe there are reasons for some things said in the Bible and not all are true to me. Maybe, just maybe, FormerLDS, gained truth by thoughtful reasoning out. Now if one goes by feeling alone, I'll bet someone could believe in a talking donkey. We always need to be careful of the different vantage points different people are coming from. Without speaking for him it seems that mfbukowski is saying, "You claim to not believe in the Book of Mormon because you think it's so illogical. But by holding to the Bible and nothing else you're not somehow protected from believing things that are on the unbelievable side." 1
Tacenda Posted May 24, 2018 Posted May 24, 2018 7 minutes ago, CMZ said: Feelings can be deceiving, but human understanding can be deceived, too. This is why D&C 8:2 says, "Yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart." As Robert is pointing out it is only a straw man when someone insists Mormons are only about "feelings in their heart." That's part of the equation, but not the whole thing. Thanks for the background for their statements, CMZ. I didn't read all of FormerLDS's quotes this far.
Robert F. Smith Posted May 24, 2018 Posted May 24, 2018 41 minutes ago, Tacenda said: His post is clear as the back of my hand when I read it. I'm surprised that you find it so confusing. He is saying that the word of God is enough to give one an understanding, not a feeling, feelings are deceiving. That is indeed what he is saying, Tacenda. He goes by the typical Protestant rule of sola scriptura, "Only Scripture." He rejects the Holy Spirit in favor of the written text only. He reads the biblical text and draws meaning from it through whatever knowledge he has of the English language. Since he doesn't know the English language well, he typically misinterprets the Holy Word of God, and that is a common source of rampant denominationalism in Protestant Christianity. Every reader has his own opinion as to what a biblical text means. He rejects the Holy Spirit because "feelings are deceiving," as you say. So the witness of the Holy Spirit has no value to him and his friends. Yet Jesus repeatedly praises those who have faith despite the absence of flesh & blood knowledge (Matt 16:17, John 20:29), and his apostles testify that they knew who he was by means of the Holy Spirit (Lk 24:32, Gal 4:6). Why would anyone reject the advice of the Lord and of his apostles?
mfbukowski Posted May 24, 2018 Posted May 24, 2018 17 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I'm so blown away by you and mfbukowski's comments to FormerLDS. So blown away that the both of you are so critical to what he is saying, and then you just made fun of things in the Bible. If a nonLDS Christian read this comment it would verify to them that you aren't Christian. Of course at one time LDS didn't ever want to refer to themselves as even being a "Christian". Maybe FormerLDS did read about the talking donkey and thought hmmm, maybe they ate the mushroom nearby? Okay, I firmly believe there are reasons for some things said in the Bible and not all are true to me. Maybe, just maybe, FormerLDS, gained truth by thoughtful reasoning out. Now if one goes by feeling alone, I'll bet someone could believe in a talking donkey. Which proves you are going by feelings, not cold logic. Case closed. My entire point was that no one goes by Logic in choosing a religion. I'm sorry if that offended you, but your reaction proves my point. Many philosophers have shown that in these matters feeling is what matters, and it's perfectly reasonable to use feelings in these instances. The fact that you find cold logic offensive proves that point.
Tacenda Posted May 24, 2018 Posted May 24, 2018 8 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: That is indeed what he is saying, Tacenda. He goes by the typical Protestant rule of sola scriptura, "Only Scripture." He rejects the Holy Spirit in favor of the written text only. He reads the biblical text and draws meaning from it through whatever knowledge he has of the English language. Since he doesn't know the English language well, he typically misinterprets the Holy Word of God, and that is a common source of rampant denominationalism in Protestant Christianity. Every reader has his own opinion as to what a biblical text means. He rejects the Holy Spirit because "feelings are deceiving," as you say. So the witness of the Holy Spirit has no value to him and his friends. Yet Jesus repeatedly praises those who have faith despite the absence of flesh & blood knowledge (Matt 16:17, John 20:29), and his apostles testify that they knew who he was by means of the Holy Spirit (Lk 24:32, Gal 4:6). Why would anyone reject the advice of the Lord and of his apostles? I'm going by my own testimony being blown away in the LDS church because so much of my testimony was based on feelings. I had plenty of good feelings in our church, still do. And then I heard/read the true parts of history that I wasn't aware of and it goes against my moral code, and now my feeling is "feelings" aren't always truth. But thanks for being civil with me Robert!
mfbukowski Posted May 24, 2018 Posted May 24, 2018 (edited) 25 minutes ago, CMZ said: We always need to be careful of the different vantage points different people are coming from. Without speaking for him it seems that mfbukowski is saying, "You claim to not believe in the Book of Mormon because you think it's so illogical. But by holding to the Bible and nothing else you're not somehow protected from believing things that are on the unbelievable side." Yes that's basically it. Further my point is that he is accepting the Bible based on the same reasons we accept the Book of Mormon, a feeling in his heart that it is the word of God. God is invisible so his very existence must be proven only by feelings that he exists. The various old logical proofs simply don't hold up. So if belief in God himself is based on feelings how can belief in what he has supposedly said be anything else? Remember I am a faithful Mormon. I am only using this logic to prove my point. The problem is not using feelings to make judgments. The problem is that the Judgment does not give the results you desire. So you use feelings to decide which church to join and then you use feelings to the side that was not the correct choice. Either way you are using feelings so why don't we just acknowledge that and get on with life? God's existence can't be shown by Logic so of course that some particular scripture is his word cannot be shown by Logic either. A being who doesn't exist doesn't have words, if you are going by logical on. But like being in love choosing a religion is not based on logic it is based on what works for the individual. If God was an objective reality that could be measured and seen and analyzed it would be a different story. But that is not the nature of God. We must accept the existence of God on faith. Edited May 24, 2018 by mfbukowski
Tacenda Posted May 24, 2018 Posted May 24, 2018 2 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Yes that's basically it. Further my point is that he is accepting the Bible based on the same reasons we accept the Book of Mormon, a feeling in his heart that it is the word of God. God is invisible so his very existence must be proven only by feelings that he exists. The various old logical proofs simply don't hold up. So if belief in God himself is based on feelings how can belief in what he has supposedly said be anything else? Remember I am a faithful Mormon. I am only using this logic to prove my point. Not really, I believe there are facts that support His existance. I wish I had the reference but recently read that there is substantial evidence that Jesus existed. And of course, we shouldn't discount the scrolls. I may edit my response here if I run out of posts for the day if you reply. So just an FYI.
Glenn101 Posted May 24, 2018 Posted May 24, 2018 6 hours ago, changed said: So, because you have had experience with one of the billions of spirits out there, you are an authority figure for everyone? No. 1
CMZ Posted May 24, 2018 Author Posted May 24, 2018 5 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I'm going by my own testimony being blown away in the LDS church because so much of my testimony was based on feelings. I had plenty of good feelings in our church, still do. And then I heard/read the true parts of history that I wasn't aware of and it goes against my moral code, and now my feeling is "feelings" aren't always truth. But thanks for being civil with me Robert! There may be talks, statements, whatnot that perhaps only mention feelings but there are plenty that also talk about the intellectual part, and many that talk about the pairing of the two. As far as the history stuff goes, people can talk about that forever and bring up all sorts of good points and maybe not so good points or whatever (I mean, there's a lot of stuff in the Old Testament that I don't think was that great). But none of it stops you from have a personal revealed testimony of the restoration of the Gospel. History is history and we don't always have all the information needed to analyze it in a full and proper manner. Here is a talk that I feel could be very helpful: http://www2.byui.edu/Presentations/Transcripts/Devotionals/2013_9_24_Christofferson.htm
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