We can each have our own testimonies

[CMZ]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I wish I had the reference but recently read that there is substantial evidence that Jesus existed.

And that is awesome and any information in this regard is a good thing and is not to be rejected. But it does not on its own impart unto somebody a testimony of his gospel (e.g., "Flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee.").

Edited May 24, 2018 by CMZ

[mrmarklin]

As an aside and a doctrinal POV, when the Spirit of Christ is mentioned in scripture, the Holy Ghost is meant.  The Spirit of the Lord IS the Holy Ghost.

[Ahab]

On ‎5‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 4:41 PM, CMZ said:

 

We can each have our own testimonies. A testimony does not come by pestering the "TBM's" into producing sufficient overwhelming intellectual evidence of the truthfulness of the Church.

We each DO have our own testimonies... whatever our testimony is.  It's unavoidable.  There is no other choice.  There isn't anybody who doesn't have his or her own ideas, whether or not he or she agrees or disagrees with some other person.

And yes a testimony can come from pestering "TBM's" into producing sufficient overwhelming intellectual evidence (okay maybe not overwhelming for everybody) of the truthfulness of the Church.

A testimony can come in many, many ways, including a person's testimony of what the word "testimony" really means.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Not really, I believe there are facts that support His existance. I wish I had the reference but recently read that there is substantial evidence that Jesus existed. And of course, we shouldn't discount the scrolls. I may edit my response here if I run out of posts for the day if you reply. So just an FYI. 

The fact that Jesus existed does not prove that God exists nor that Jesus did anything but get crucified if even THAT. 

A person's death on a cross 2000 years ago does not prove my sins are forgiven.

We don't seem to be communicating well, and if I don't answer further that's why.

 

[mfbukowski]

54 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

As an aside and a doctrinal POV, when the Spirit of Christ is mentioned in scripture, the Holy Ghost is meant.  The Spirit of the Lord IS the Holy Ghost.

Yep.

Totally missed in this discussion 

[CMZ]

31 minutes ago, Ahab said:

We each DO have our own testimonies... whatever our testimony is.  It's unavoidable.  There is no other choice.  There isn't anybody who doesn't have his or her own ideas, whether or not he or she agrees or disagrees with some other person.

And yes a testimony can come from pestering "TBM's" into producing sufficient overwhelming intellectual evidence (okay maybe not overwhelming for everybody) of the truthfulness of the Church.

A testimony can come in many, many ways, including a person's testimony of what the word "testimony" really means.

Sure. Ultimately, a testimony of the gospel come through revelation to an individual from the Holy Ghost.

[Ahab]

7 minutes ago, CMZ said:

Sure. Ultimately, a testimony of the gospel come through revelation to an individual from the Holy Ghost.

That's one way, and one understanding/definition of what the word testimony really means.  I consider a person's testimony to be whatever they would say while trying to be honest in a court room.  Their word on...whatever.  Whatever he or she has seen or heard or experienced personally in some personal way.  Or at least that would be an honest testimony.  People can also be dishonest while bearing their testimony, and it is still their testimony even though it is false.

But yes I know we in the Church also use the word testimony to refer to what the Holy Ghost tells us/testifies to us of what the Holy Ghost knows, which we then accept and which then becomes our own testimony as well. 

Edited May 24, 2018 by Ahab
distinguishing true vs false testimony

[CMZ]

4 minutes ago, Ahab said:

That's one way, and one understanding/definition of what the word testimony really means.  I consider a person's testimony to be whatever they would say while trying to be honest in a court room.  Their word on...whatever.  Whatever he or she has seen or heard or experienced personally in some personal way.  But yes I know we in the Church also use the word testimony to refer to what the Holy Ghost tells us/testifies to us of what the Holy Ghost knows, which we then accept and which then becomes our own testimony as well. 

Yes, testimony of the Gospel is not exactly the same as a testimony borne in a court room.

[pogi]

5 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I have some investments I'd like to show you.....  

[Ahab]

2 minutes ago, CMZ said:

Yes, testimony of the Gospel is not exactly the same as a testimony borne in a court room.

I was focusing on the word testimony rather than focusing on whether testimony is true or false.  A person's honest testimony should be the same wherever they bear it, whether in a court room or on an internet chat board or standing in front of a pulpit in a church building.

 

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I'm going by my own testimony being blown away in the LDS church because so much of my testimony was based on feelings. I had plenty of good feelings in our church, still do. And then I heard/read the true parts of history that I wasn't aware of and it goes against my moral code,  and now my feeling is "feelings" aren't always truth. But thanks for being civil with me Robert! 

I just wanted to assure you that you are not alone in expressing those views.  However, bear in  mind that much of the opinion expressed against some early Mormon practices (polygamy, the priesthood ban, etc.) are actually emotional feelings every bit as much as any other feelings which may have been positive.  As I have explained to others in this thread, the problem with that is that Jesus himself insists on the Holy Spirit as a  more important source of testimony than any secular or scientific means of knowledge -- and so do his apostles.

Biblical religion is very much a deeply emotional thing, a commitment to a God who isn't necessarily an easy-going and gentle guy.  So in one scene you have Mosaic theophanies on Mount Sinai, in another you have Elijah the Prophet at Mount Carmel offering sacrifice before the opposing priests of Ba'al (who are slaughtered), and finally we end up at a scene in which Elijah is alone in a cave on Mount Horeb/Sinai himself (1 Kings 19) fasting and listening to that still small voice of the Holy Spirit:

Quote

9 And he came thither unto a cave, and lodged there; and, behold, the word of the Lord came to him, and he said unto him, What doest thou here, Elijah?
10 And he said, I have been very jealous for the Lord God of hosts: for the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.
11 And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the Lord. And, behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the Lord; but the Lord was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the Lord was not in the earthquake:
12 And after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.
13 And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, there came a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah?

The word of the Lord comes to him in a still small voice, and he is receptive to it.  Listening to the Holy Spirit is not the same as listening to your teacher lecturing at school, or your Mom & Dad telling you what they want you to do.  It isn't the same as a scientific lab experiment or the solution to a math problem.  There is nothing logical about it, because it testifies to your heart.  What does that mean?  Obviously, we are not talking about the heart as an organ that pumps blood, but of a much deeper, emotional response to the Holy Spirit.  How did the apostles hearts burn within them?  That is not to be taken literally, but rather should be understood as a deeply emotional response at gut level which can easily bring tears.  When we accept those promptings we should realize that we are throwing ourselves on a sea of uncertainly -- a huge risk, but one which people take every day in response to the preaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  People go to the baptismal font without the kind of assurance that logic provides, but instead with the much more sure word of the Holy Spirit, the more sure word of prophecy.  Even though they cannot prove that Jesus was raised from the dead, they believe it and commit themselves to a life of holiness and service.  That is a lot coming just from a still small voice.

[changed]

11 hours ago, pogi said:

I was confused at how you can have a testimony of the Holy Ghost and not know what it is or when it speaks to you.

I agree that our conscience is our primary guide, but how would you know about any of this without the words of the prophets?  It is the prophets who revealed God to us in the first place - that taught us how to have a personal relationship with God.

What if your conscience tells you to follow a prophet? Suddenly your conscience isn’t all you need anymore .  You also need those teachers etc. whom your conscience directs you to.  That is how you gain a testimony of the mantle of a prophet, and not so much of the imperfect man himself.

 

What percentage of humanity has had access to the words of prophets?

Ans.  A VERY small percentage.

It stands to reason G-d does not believe most need a middleman...  

If prophets were sooo essential, why did G-d not give all of his beloved children, through all history, and all nations, prophets?  

[pogi]

1 hour ago, changed said:

 

What percentage of humanity has had access to the words of prophets?

Ans.  A VERY small percentage.

It stands to reason G-d does not believe most need a middleman...  

If prophets were sooo essential, why did G-d not give all of his beloved children, through all history, and all nations, prophets?  

I think you are looking at this through a shallow lens.  Look deeper.  Life doesn’t end at death, as you previously testified.

Though the person I was proxy for in the temple last week didn’t have access to a prophet in their lifetime, I bet they are greatful for one now.  I bet they are greatful for the mission of the church to redeem the dead, and for the prophets who revealed this work to man.   Without this work we would all be doomed, because we need our dead as much as they need us.