Uncomfortable at church - any suggestions?

[Stargazer]

On 5/5/2018 at 12:31 AM, Jeanne said:

Does anyone learn anything new?  Is there learning in all these meetings?

I think that depends. Some people don't learn anything. Others learn a lot.  And these are people in the same meetings!

We had a really interesting and learningful Sunday today, for example.  This doesn't happen every Sunday, but it happens often enough.

[Stargazer]

On 5/4/2018 at 10:09 PM, hope_for_things said:

Most of the wards I've been in, it seems like roughly 20% of the people in class participate and the rest never make a comment.  I fall into that abnormal group that tries to participate on a regular basis.  

I spent 30-ish years in my previous ward and had a hard time keeping my hand down and my voice unactivated during lessons.  It's a curse we both share, apparently.

And the 80% are glad for us 20 percenters because if we weren't there they might have to chime in, and they don't want to.

All that being said, I am in a new ward in a different country now, and I am trying to keep my trap shut, for a change.  Trying, yes, but not succeeding all that well, I'm afraid.

[Stargazer]

On 5/4/2018 at 10:36 PM, mfbukowski said:

So speaking for myself, I am not in a position to brag about my own brilliance  to others while I am still bragging about how smart I am.   It  is not my place to push others into my  own wonderful self-seen level of brilliance because to do so shows my lack of actually  being at that level.

I think I could speak for myself like this, too.

I do sometimes feel quite smug in my overarching sense of knowing everything.  

And I sometimes wonder how much of that is Dunning-Kruger in action.

[JayneAdelle]

On 5/4/2018 at 2:14 PM, hope_for_things said:

I'm going to be somewhat personal and vulnerable in this thread and I'm hoping to tap into some wisdom from this diverse group.   

Over the past few years I've had some ups and downs with respect to active Sunday attendance.  My last stretch of activity I approached my Sundays with two goals.  1.  I wanted to have positive interactions with as many people as possible.  Getting myself outside my comfort zone, and having meaningful exchanges with people.  2.  I wanted to contribute to the discussions in Sunday School and Priesthood meetings with thoughtful comments that at times would provide an interesting alternative perspective or may introduce information that you don't typically hear in correlated Mormonism.  

In many ways everything was going great, I was having meaningful conversations with people, I made new friends and felt like my comments and perspectives that I shared were a net positive to the group. 

Yet over time I kept having this gnawing feeling that I wasn't doing this for the right reasons.  I began to increasingly feel like I was being disingenuous.  I've had this idea creep into my mind and I can't seem to shake it.  Who am I to feel like I should be teaching people information that isn't part of their correlated Mormon world view?   Why do I think that my alternative perspectives are wanted or needed?  Am I doing this for personal reasons, for personal satisfaction, for personal gratification?   Am I really helping the group, or is this a more selfish endeavor?  

Any suggestions on how to cope with these feelings?  Have any of you had similar feelings before?  

 

Wow, I can really relate. My thoughts on this are actually kind of complex. I used to get so frustrated at church when people just didn't seem to "get it." I thought it would be helpful for me to explain things in a way that would enlighten them, so I did that. A lot. Then little by little I began to perceive that some people appreciated it, others seemed a little scared, and yet others would get kind of hostile. One day I was reading the bible and the disciples were saying, "Hey Jesus, why do you tell all these stories? If you're trying to teach people stuff, why don't you just give it to them straight instead of couching it in all these obscure terms?" He of course replied, "Well, ya see, not everyone is ready for the bare facts. I tell these stories so that the simple folk will be entertained & the deep folk will have something to chew on." I'm paraphrasing, in case that's not obvious.

So instead of trying to "enlighten" everyone, I started to be more observant of individual people and when I perceived that someone was interested in digging a little deeper, I'd have discussions with them. Then it became a give and take of ideas & thoughts, and I learned as much as I taught, and received a lot to chew on. Meanwhile, the simple folk could stay in their comfort zones, which is not necessarily a bad thing.

Right now, though, I have this alternative theory about the "Plan" that is burning a hole in my pocket & I'm dyin' to talk to someone whose views are a little unconventional. Know anyone (heh)?

[JayneAdelle]

14 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I spent 30-ish years in my previous ward and had a hard time keeping my hand down and my voice unactivated during lessons.  It's a curse we both share, apparently.

And the 80% are glad for us 20 percenters because if we weren't there they might have to chime in, and they don't want to.

All that being said, I am in a new ward in a different country now, and I am trying to keep my trap shut, for a change.  Trying, yes, but not succeeding all that well, I'm afraid.

I got really annoyed in Gospel Doctrine class several years ago because our instructor put so much work into his lessons & then the members would just literally nod off in class. NO ONE answered questions, no one did the reading or the homework. It was disgraceful. I hadn't been much better because I didn't really have confidence to raise my hand. But I decided to take some action.

I did the reading & the homework, I studied, and then during the next class I answered ALL the questions, responded every time I got the chance, made it obvious that I'd done the homework. My hand was constantly in the air. I kept doing this every Sunday for 2 months before the other members started raising their hands. It had sort of become a contest among the others to see if they could shut me up. The class became very lively and animated & we had wonderful discussions. I still kept raising my hand but the teacher started ignoring me (he wasn't aware of my plan). That ended up being the most engaging class I ever went to. 

I have to make the disclaimer that I didn't really know how to make friends so I didn't care if they all thought I was obnoxious. If you don't want to be thought obnoxious, I suggest you don't follow my example.

[california boy]

27 minutes ago, JayneAdelle said:

Wow, I can really relate. My thoughts on this are actually kind of complex. I used to get so frustrated at church when people just didn't seem to "get it." I thought it would be helpful for me to explain things in a way that would enlighten them, so I did that. A lot. Then little by little I began to perceive that some people appreciated it, others seemed a little scared, and yet others would get kind of hostile. One day I was reading the bible and the disciples were saying, "Hey Jesus, why do you tell all these stories? If you're trying to teach people stuff, why don't you just give it to them straight instead of couching it in all these obscure terms?" He of course replied, "Well, ya see, not everyone is ready for the bare facts. I tell these stories so that the simple folk will be entertained & the deep folk will have something to chew on." I'm paraphrasing, in case that's not obvious.

So instead of trying to "enlighten" everyone, I started to be more observant of individual people and when I perceived that someone was interested in digging a little deeper, I'd have discussions with them. Then it became a give and take of ideas & thoughts, and I learned as much as I taught, and received a lot to chew on. Meanwhile, the simple folk could stay in their comfort zones, which is not necessarily a bad thing.

Right now, though, I have this alternative theory about the "Plan" that is burning a hole in my pocket & I'm dyin' to talk to someone whose views are a little unconventional. Know anyone (heh)?

I wan to hear you thoughts on the ‘Plan”. I know you can’t start threads yet. If you want me to start one for you, let me know. That’s better than derailing this thread.  You sound like an interesting guy. Welcome to the board. 

[JayneAdelle]

5 hours ago, california boy said:

I wan to hear you thoughts on the ‘Plan”. I know you can’t start threads yet. If you want me to start one for you, let me know. That’s better than derailing this thread.  You sound like an interesting guy. Welcome to the board. 

Cali boy, I don't want to hijack this thread. I was hoping someone would take the bait, so yes, I'd love it if you would start the thread.

[hope_for_things]

6 hours ago, JayneAdelle said:

Wow, I can really relate. My thoughts on this are actually kind of complex. I used to get so frustrated at church when people just didn't seem to "get it." I thought it would be helpful for me to explain things in a way that would enlighten them, so I did that. A lot. Then little by little I began to perceive that some people appreciated it, others seemed a little scared, and yet others would get kind of hostile. One day I was reading the bible and the disciples were saying, "Hey Jesus, why do you tell all these stories? If you're trying to teach people stuff, why don't you just give it to them straight instead of couching it in all these obscure terms?" He of course replied, "Well, ya see, not everyone is ready for the bare facts. I tell these stories so that the simple folk will be entertained & the deep folk will have something to chew on." I'm paraphrasing, in case that's not obvious.

So instead of trying to "enlighten" everyone, I started to be more observant of individual people and when I perceived that someone was interested in digging a little deeper, I'd have discussions with them. Then it became a give and take of ideas & thoughts, and I learned as much as I taught, and received a lot to chew on. Meanwhile, the simple folk could stay in their comfort zones, which is not necessarily a bad thing.

Right now, though, I have this alternative theory about the "Plan" that is burning a hole in my pocket & I'm dyin' to talk to someone whose views are a little unconventional. Know anyone (heh)?

Thanks much, those are good comments and good advice.  

One thing that has worked for me, and its backed up by some studies about behavior and how people respond to information that is new or different than what they're familiar with.  We humans like a good story, and if we have a narrative for how we think things work, hearing contradictory information that conflicts with our version of how things work can cause a lot of resistance. 

But if instead of just being presented with facts and figures we are presented with a story, a new narrative, especially a narrative that comes from personal experience, people are much more open to those kinds of stories.  They are more authentic and I think people relate better to these things.  So wherever possible I try to tell a story that I've been a part of or that I've encountered in my life to illustrate whatever it is that I'm discussing.  Making it more personal is risky as well, and you can have you vulnerability betrayed by others, but I think its potentially the most rewarding path for all parties involved.  

As for theories about the "plan", I might disappoint a little there as I don't really believe there is a "plan" anymore, so I probably wouldn't be the best person to play with on that subject.  I do like to learn about the history of theology and the different perspectives of those in the past and how those perspectives developed into doctrines we have today.  I find that aspect interesting.  

 

[hope_for_things]

20 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I spent 30-ish years in my previous ward and had a hard time keeping my hand down and my voice unactivated during lessons.  It's a curse we both share, apparently.

And the 80% are glad for us 20 percenters because if we weren't there they might have to chime in, and they don't want to.

All that being said, I am in a new ward in a different country now, and I am trying to keep my trap shut, for a change.  Trying, yes, but not succeeding all that well, I'm afraid.

Ha!  Yeah, can't teach an old dog new tricks.  I can't resist taking the bait either, just a personality glitch we both share I guess.  

[hope_for_things]

21 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I am not sure how to advise, but back when I was the main instructor in my high priests group (because one of the other instructors died, and the other moved out) I had two brethren who had rather eclectic views on some things.  I loved their contributions because they frequently had startling, perplexing or brow-knitting insights to offer.  They were both very conventional LDS with strong testimonies, but were not afraid to color outside the box, and they made teaching the high priests group rather more fun than it otherwise would have been.  And I'm pretty sure their contributions got some of the brethren thinking in alternate directions -- and not bad ones, either. But, because they seemed to feel as you suggest you do, even though they continued active in the church they moderated their attendance at the HP lessons to the point where they were seldom there any longer.  I tried to talk them into being there more often, but they largely stayed away.

Maybe some of your alternative perspectives aren't wanted, or needed, but so what?  I cannot make definitive judgements, not being there to hear what you have to say, but even though I don't always appreciate your views on THIS forum, I'd be the last person to suggest that your views are not, at least sometimes, valuable.  So, though the audience there at church isn't quite the same as here, I would be surprised if your contributions there are all negative.  

So keep it up.  Even if it is for personal gratification.  Heck, a large part of the reason why I love being called to teach classes in church is because I like doing it, and I get gratification from it.  

It's like a free-market economy. Even though the motives of those who offer goods and services are at base selfish, they nevertheless benefit all, even if that isn't their intention.  The hidden hand of the market, as it were. 

I think it can be hard to be person bringing up the alternative perspectives in class over the long run.  That position might be helpful to the overall dynamic, and some people might appreciate the comments, but there are others who don't appreciate the comments.  And there can be a sense from those others that your perspectives aren't welcome and aren't shared.  This can be communicated verbally or in non-verbal ways.

I think Mormonism really thrives at maintaining conformity of thought through the correlation program and through its very strong emphasis on obedience and deference to authority.    These principles are worshiped as sacred in the Mormonism I've grown up with, and that makes it very hard for people that don't fit into that mold.  This could change with new leadership and a change in emphasis on what the primary priorities of the gospel are, and I see some reasons to hope that things are changing incrementally, but change like that seems to happen slowly. 

[bsjkki]

On 5/4/2018 at 12:14 PM, hope_for_things said:

I'm going to be somewhat personal and vulnerable in this thread and I'm hoping to tap into some wisdom from this diverse group.   

Over the past few years I've had some ups and downs with respect to active Sunday attendance.  My last stretch of activity I approached my Sundays with two goals.  1.  I wanted to have positive interactions with as many people as possible.  Getting myself outside my comfort zone, and having meaningful exchanges with people.  2.  I wanted to contribute to the discussions in Sunday School and Priesthood meetings with thoughtful comments that at times would provide an interesting alternative perspective or may introduce information that you don't typically hear in correlated Mormonism.  

In many ways everything was going great, I was having meaningful conversations with people, I made new friends and felt like my comments and perspectives that I shared were a net positive to the group. 

Yet over time I kept having this gnawing feeling that I wasn't doing this for the right reasons.  I began to increasingly feel like I was being disingenuous.  I've had this idea creep into my mind and I can't seem to shake it.  Who am I to feel like I should be teaching people information that isn't part of their correlated Mormon world view?   Why do I think that my alternative perspectives are wanted or needed?  Am I doing this for personal reasons, for personal satisfaction, for personal gratification?   Am I really helping the group, or is this a more selfish endeavor?  

Any suggestions on how to cope with these feelings?  Have any of you had similar feelings before?  

 

There is a really easy answer for this...serve in Primary. 😀 

...and yes, I’ve had those feelings. 

[stemelbow]

8 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I think it can be hard to be person bringing up the alternative perspectives in class over the long run.  That position might be helpful to the overall dynamic, and some people might appreciate the comments, but there are others who don't appreciate the comments.  And there can be a sense from those others that your perspectives aren't welcome and aren't shared.  This can be communicated verbally or in non-verbal ways.

I think Mormonism really thrives at maintaining conformity of thought through the correlation program and through its very strong emphasis on obedience and deference to authority.    These principles are worshiped as sacred in the Mormonism I've grown up with, and that makes it very hard for people that don't fit into that mold.  This could change with new leadership and a change in emphasis on what the primary priorities of the gospel are, and I see some reasons to hope that things are changing incrementally, but change like that seems to happen slowly. 

I think the Church's inability and unwillingness to accept diversity of thought will be it's undoing.  If it changes then good for the Church, but for now, I think the Church unnecessarily pushes people out.  The push and pressure for conformity is too strong.  The exclusive nature of the culture and attitude is too ingrained.  It seems to me those who stay and try to make it work are most often those who have invested too much already and feel they can't give it up, even though plenty of those are leaving.  I still maintain there is great potential in the Church, but it feels like it's strongest aspect is it's biggest stumbling block.  

[hope_for_things]

On 5/6/2018 at 6:29 AM, CV75 said:

Discomfort is definitely an aspect of change. Resolving a faith crisis can take a couple of routes: address the faith; address the object of faith; or address both together. Faith can be developed or denied, and the object of faith can be magnified or removed from view. Obviously one chooses which way to go with that, and deals with the associated growing pains of the respective disciplines. We can only help others with what we have chosen ourselves. One of the greatest blessings I have enjoyed is an evolution of my ideas (and more:character, abilities, influence, attainments, etc.) over the years, which like you, manifests in ways I could never have imagined before.

This is interesting in light of a conversation I was having with my wife the other day.  She was asking me about losing my faith, and you mention faith crisis, and I've described my initial experience as a faith crisis many times because of the convenience of using that description, but I'm at a somewhat different place now as far as my faith is concerned.  

The term faith doesn't mean the same thing it did to me before.  Currently I think of faith as a relationship my personal ethics.  I consider that I'm being faithful and developing faith when I honor those ethics through my fidelity in my actions and thoughts.  For example, a principle like loving the poor, I can show faithfulness to that principle when I give meaningful service through time or money to that effort.  

In the past I used to think of faith as believing a propositional idea that I'm taught in church.  For example, if we're taught that God did something or that God has a certain attribute or that some church leader wants us to do something, then exercising faith is when we trust that these propositions should be followed, should be practiced, should be believed as true.  That was what faith was for me in the past, and thats not how I describe faith today.  

Anyway, I agree with your other points, just wanted to share some thoughts.  Thanks

[hope_for_things]

13 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

There is a really easy answer for this...serve in Primary. 😀 

...and yes, I’ve had those feelings. 

I've always loved it when I've had the opportunity to serve in primary.  It can be a much safer place for sure!  Good to know you've gone through this before as well.  Thanks

[hope_for_things]

9 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I think the Church's inability and unwillingness to accept diversity of thought will be it's undoing.  If it changes then good for the Church, but for now, I think the Church unnecessarily pushes people out.  The push and pressure for conformity is too strong.  The exclusive nature of the culture and attitude is too ingrained.  It seems to me those who stay and try to make it work are most often those who have invested too much already and feel they can't give it up, even though plenty of those are leaving.  I still maintain there is great potential in the Church, but it feels like it's strongest aspect is it's biggest stumbling block.  

Yes, well like my parents taught me as a young child, all our choices have consequences sometimes good and sometimes bad.  The church's current emphasis does push people out, sometimes many of the very brightest and best.  There are still good people left, but if the church wants conformity to be the object of its existence, then I think its growth will be stunted.  

[california boy]

1 hour ago, JayneAdelle said:

Cali boy, I don't want to hijack this thread. I was hoping someone would take the bait, so yes, I'd love it if you would start the thread.

Ok.  I can do that.  What do you want to title the thread?  And what do you want to discuss about the title?

[Bernard Gui]

On 5/4/2018 at 3:58 PM, MiserereNobis said:

In my experiences at LDS church the focus has been squarely on sharing insights and educating. In the 3 hour church service, sacrament/communion only lasts for 10-15 minutes. The rest of the time is filled with talking: sermons, lessons, etc. The point of those seems to be share insights and educate. So as far as time is concerned, 12% of LDS church meetings are for covenant renewal, and the rest is for teaching/learning.

A little leaven leavens the whole loaf. 

[CV75]

58 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

This is interesting in light of a conversation I was having with my wife the other day.  She was asking me about losing my faith, and you mention faith crisis, and I've described my initial experience as a faith crisis many times because of the convenience of using that description, but I'm at a somewhat different place now as far as my faith is concerned.  

The term faith doesn't mean the same thing it did to me before.  Currently I think of faith as a relationship my personal ethics.  I consider that I'm being faithful and developing faith when I honor those ethics through my fidelity in my actions and thoughts.  For example, a principle like loving the poor, I can show faithfulness to that principle when I give meaningful service through time or money to that effort.  

In the past I used to think of faith as believing a propositional idea that I'm taught in church.  For example, if we're taught that God did something or that God has a certain attribute or that some church leader wants us to do something, then exercising faith is when we trust that these propositions should be followed, should be practiced, should be believed as true.  That was what faith was for me in the past, and thats not how I describe faith today.  

Anyway, I agree with your other points, just wanted to share some thoughts.  Thanks

RE: the faith crisis (and not the discomfort part; I mixed ideas in that post), I wasn’t so much referring to you personally, but to your mention a few pages prior that you are seeking “carve out spaces for those suffering from a faith crisis.” You recall you once mentioned you had developed a four-tiered Sunday School curriculum – is that an example of carving out space?

How do you define faith, and faith crisis, for those you are striving to help?

When you work and participate in class in their behalf, which course of resolution from the brief summary I offered are you using (I’m assuming the one that you chose for yourself)? How does it impact them with regards to church activity, attendance and participation and personal religious practice, etc.?

PS you mentioned you consider yourself an introvert yet in the dialog directly above you sound like you're acting like an extrovert (the abnormal 20%)--must be exhausting!

[hope_for_things]

2 minutes ago, CV75 said:

RE: the faith crisis (and not the discomfort part; I mixed ideas in that post), I wasn’t so much referring to you personally, but to your mention a few pages prior that you are seeking “carve out spaces for those suffering from a faith crisis.” You recall you once mentioned you had developed a four-tiered Sunday School curriculum – is that an example of carving out space?

Thanks for the clarifications.  The multi-tiered Sunday school programs that I was involved with was when I was still an orthodox believer.  When I'm thinking about carving our spaces for those suffering from faith crisis I have suggested to my current local leaders (different stake than when I was orthodox) starting a special Sunday School class where we cover the church's essays and recent church scholarship on history.  I think that would help some people.  I've made other suggestions, ministering programs to those struggling, 5th Sunday lessons, firesides, etc.  But unfortunately, I haven't had much success in my current stake.  

8 minutes ago, CV75 said:

How do you define faith, and faith crisis, for those you are striving to help?

I typically use the faith crisis term in the way most people use that terminology, for convenience sake.  Its effective enough without getting into a more complex conversation to start.  

10 minutes ago, CV75 said:

When you work and participate in class in their behalf, which course of resolution from the brief summary I offered are you using (I’m assuming the one that you chose for yourself)? How does it impact them with regards to church activity, attendance and participation and personal religious practice, etc.?

You lost me on this, participating in class on someone's behalf?  I'm not sure what you mean by this.  

10 minutes ago, CV75 said:

PS you mentioned you consider yourself an introvert yet in the dialog directly above you sound like you're acting like an extrovert (the abnormal 20%)--must be exhausting!

Yeah, too bad I can't seem to quiet my brain down long enough to keep my mouth shut.  An odd duck, I must seem to be.  

[Eek!]

3 hours ago, JayneAdelle said:

Cali boy, I don't want to hijack this thread. I was hoping someone would take the bait, so yes, I'd love it if you would start the thread.

Okay this is none of my beeswax, but it sounds like you want to talk about something that is important to you.  In that case, it might make more sense for it to be YOUR thread, rather than a thread that someone started for you.   Pretty soon you'll be able to start your own.  My recollection is that you can do so after you've made a certain number of posts, and I think that number is twenty-five. 

Also, my recollection is that new members can't edit their posts until that 25-post threshold has been reached, and again if this is something that is important to you, being able to edit to improve clarity might be worth waiting for. 

[pogi]

4 hours ago, JayneAdelle said:

Cali boy, I don't want to hijack this thread. I was hoping someone would take the bait, so yes, I'd love it if you would start the thread.

I agree with Eek!  If you go over to Social Hall and make a dozen contributions to the 3 word story, you should be able to create a thread after that.   

[CV75]

2 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

You lost me on this, participating in class on someone's behalf?  I'm not sure what you mean by this.  

I took your active participation in class to be part of your approach to create more space for those in faith crisis. I summarized how I think resolving faith crisis could go: address the faith, address the object of faith, or address both together. In addressing them, faith can be developed or denied, and the object of faith can be magnified or removed from view. You seemed to agree. I'm asking which of those approaches you take, and how has that means of creating space impacted them with regards to church activity, attendance and participation and personal religious practice, etc.?

[Meerkat]

6 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

This is interesting in light of a conversation I was having with my wife the other day.  She was asking me about losing my faith, and you mention faith crisis, and I've described my initial experience as a faith crisis many times because of the convenience of using that description, but I'm at a somewhat different place now as far as my faith is concerned.  

The term faith doesn't mean the same thing it did to me before.  Currently I think of faith as a relationship my personal ethics.  I consider that I'm being faithful and developing faith when I honor those ethics through my fidelity in my actions and thoughts.  For example, a principle like loving the poor, I can show faithfulness to that principle when I give meaningful service through time or money to that effort.  

In the past I used to think of faith as believing a propositional idea that I'm taught in church.  For example, if we're taught that God did something or that God has a certain attribute or that some church leader wants us to do something, then exercising faith is when we trust that these propositions should be followed, should be practiced, should be believed as true.  That was what faith was for me in the past, and thats not how I describe faith today.  

Anyway, I agree with your other points, just wanted to share some thoughts.  Thanks

It's hard to argue against your definition of faith.  I don't hear you mention Christ.  But you describe following your conscience, or light of Christ.  Thse are a few of what I see as accepted definitions of faith in the scriptures.  "Lord, I believe.  Help Thou mine unbelief."  His son was healed according to his weak faith.  "Show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works." The example of the Good Samaritan, who was not of the "chosen" race.  Yet he and his charity, became the example of the prototypical Christian.  Many other examples.  1 Peter 4:8 "And ABOVE ALL THINGS have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins."  Those important definitions fit squarely within your definition of faith.  I would lock arms with any brother or sister who described their faith as you did, whether in or out of the Church, and whether or not they professed to be Christians.   Didn't Christ say knowledge comes from doing the thing? 

Edited May 7, 2018 by Meerkat

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I've always loved it when I've had the opportunity to serve in primary.  It can be a much safer place for sure!  Good to know you've gone through this before as well.  Thanks

Please don’t misconstrue, but safer for whom? I hope our children are taught by folks who are sincerely grounded in the fullness of the Gospel. 

[hope_for_things]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

I took your active participation in class to be part of your approach to create more space for those in faith crisis. I summarized how I think resolving faith crisis could go: address the faith, address the object of faith, or address both together. In addressing them, faith can be developed or denied, and the object of faith can be magnified or removed from view. You seemed to agree. I'm asking which of those approaches you take, and how has that means of creating space impacted them with regards to church activity, attendance and participation and personal religious practice, etc.?

Well, I'm still not sure I fully follow your address the faith or address the objective of faith language.  What I try to do with respect to class participation to help create a space for people struggling with their faith, or perhaps a better description is people struggling with some kind of existential angst, is to speak in terms of alternative perspectives that complicate the discussion.  I find that many adult classes are still stuck in primary age level discussions.  Very black and white, good and evil dichotomies with right and wrong answers.  Reality is often more complex.  Just providing a different viewpoint or being vulnerable about a personal struggle can often open up a discussion that I think can help those who may be struggling, and I've had good success with this in the past.