The change in relationship between Adam and Eve

[theplains]

After Adam and Eve ate from the forbidden tree, God said to Eve "... and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and
he shall rule over thee."

The relationship between them had changed.

What was it like before the Fall?

Thanks,
Jim

[Jeanne]

2 minutes ago, theplains said:

After Adam and Eve ate from the forbidden tree, God said to Eve "... and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and
he shall rule over thee."

The relationship between them had changed.

What was it like before the Fall?

Thanks,
Jim

Much better.

[Robert F. Smith]

8 hours ago, theplains said:

After Adam and Eve ate from the forbidden tree, God said to Eve "... and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and
he shall rule over thee."

The relationship between them had changed.

What was it like before the Fall?

Thanks,
Jim

Sounds like puberty, Jim.  Before that, they were innocent, didn't realize that they were naked, and were not embarrassed.  An entirely natural change had come over them.

[Thinking]

I think that if Adam had eaten the fruit first, he would have blamed Eve and the narrative would still read "... and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and
he shall rule over thee."

Remember, a man wrote the narrative.

[Mike Harris]

Yes.  We all shouted for joy in the premortal life to come to earth and a fundamental reason why was to have our own family.  So, it was true for Adam and Eve and for all of us.  With that said, another layer to consider is that of Adam serving as a type for the Saviour and eve for the church.   Gaskill’s book elaborates wonderfully.

[Maidservant]

First of all, I understand God's words to Adam and Eve to NOT BE His will for them particularly (although in the grand scheme of things, even the passage through evil may be for our good); rather, he is telling them what they are in for in a 'fallen' world, and describing the artifacts (curses) of a 'fallen' world--God is NOT describing holiness, or heaven, or his will for them and for their relationship.  Thus, every time a woman submits to her husband (and quite often, especially in the ages of history, this was a matter of great propagation of evil on many levels), she is participating in the CURSE, rather than participating in BLESSING that is her greatest potential and birthright.  Her greatest potential (as it is for all human beings) is to be free and to govern herself and to be present before God directly.  In terms of her relationship with men or her husband specifically, it is to accept the service and support (not rule) that healthy, holy men naturally and joyfully provide for women; and together joyfully raise children.

Edited April 8, 2018 by Maidservant

[CV75]

On 4/7/2018 at 11:23 AM, theplains said:

After Adam and Eve ate from the forbidden tree, God said to Eve "... and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and
he shall rule over thee."

The relationship between them had changed.

What was it like before the Fall?

Thanks,
Jim

From what I can gather, she once found the tree of knowledge to be desired (Genesis 3:6), to make her wise, and was now being reminded that this same desire for wisdom would now be fulfilled by desire for the instructions given by the Lord through Adam, which represent the hoped-for access to tree of life. This role for Adam is what made him a “ruler,” and only in the sense of relaying the keys of eternal life from the Father to the other mortal children of God, which Eve both represented and brought forth. Like Eve, we all now find the tree of life to be desired, now that we bear the fruits of the tree of knowledge. Of course Christ is the tree of life and the keeper of it, but has delegated much of the earthly business to getting there to Adam until He returns.

Edited April 9, 2018 by CV75

[theplains]

On 08/04/2018 at 8:29 PM, CV75 said:

Like Eve, we all now find the tree of life to be desired, now that we bear the fruits of the tree of knowledge. Of course Christ is the tree of life and the keeper of it, but has delegated much of the earthly business to getting there to Adam until He returns.

I think Eve's desire was not only to become wise, but also to become a god.   Now that's what you call being tempted.
This is still prevalent in our day.  People follow their own way on the path to disobedience. 

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from
the simplicity that is in Christ."

Eve's choice to disobey God should not be applauded or praised. It is a corruption of the mind.

Thanks,
Jim

[CV75]

14 minutes ago, theplains said:

I think Eve's desire was not only to become wise, but also to become a god.   Now that's what you call being tempted.
This is still prevalent in our day.  People follow their own way on the path to disobedience. 

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from
the simplicity that is in Christ."

Eve's choice to disobey God should not be applauded or praised. It is a corruption of the mind.

Thanks,
Jim

Except the serpent beguiled Eve by saying that she and Adam would "be as gods." A very different concept from what you are putting forth. Don't put words in the serpent's mouth in order to support a misbegotten slant on Eve's motives! Now that's what you call being tempted. This is still prevalent in our day.  People follow the path of the accuser. 

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name..."

Condemning Eve is a corruption of God's true path.

Thanks,

CV75

[theplains]

23 hours ago, CV75 said:

Condemning Eve is a corruption of God's true path.

Thanks,

CV75

Do you believe Paul ("But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds
should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ") views her disobedience as a good example to follow
God's path?

Thanks,
Jim

[RevTestament]

Quote

I think Eve's desire was not only to become wise, but also to become a god.   Now that's what you call being tempted.
This is still prevalent in our day.  People follow their own way on the path to disobedience. 

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from
the simplicity that is in Christ."

Eve's choice to disobey God should not be applauded or praised. It is a corruption of the mind.

Thanks,
Jim

Eve is a good little girl. Adam and Eve stay in the garden. No need for a savior. No need for Christ who was prepared from the beginning of the world. Adam and Eve do not learn from mistakes, and so do not become like YHWH Elohim knowing good and evil. Gospel ends without a savior. 

Somehow that seems to defeat God's plan, and purpose for creating the world... 

Your plan: man just stays in heaven with God forever since man makes no error. 

Fortunately, God had a better plan.

Edited April 12, 2018 by RevTestament

[CV75]

14 hours ago, theplains said:

Do you believe Paul ("But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds
should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ") views her disobedience as a good example to follow
God's path?

Thanks,
Jim

You're corrupting and confusing the messages. Paul is talking about the serpent's subtlety. The devil used subtlety to beguile Eve in Eden, and uses it to corrupt us in the fallen world. Being beguiled in Eden is not the same as being corrupted behind your computer. Paul is not talking about Eve's disobedience, nor ours, but of her being beguiled and of our being corrupted. Disobedience may well follow both beguilement and corruption, but Paul is not getting into comparing Eve's disobedience in her circumstance with our disobedience in ours.

The correct understanding of this verse, is that the devil uses subtlety to both beguile and corrupt. We can learn from Eve's experience to beware.

You haven't addressed my objection to your claim that Eve wanted to be a god, posted here: Posted Tuesday at 07:01 PM If you just keep asking bad questions instead, I won't be able to put my time into this discussion.

9 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Eve is a good little girl. Adam and Eve stay in the garden. No need for a savior. No need for Christ who was prepared from the beginning of the world. Adam and Eve do not learn from mistakes, and so do not become like YHWH Elohim knowing good and evil. Gospel ends without a savior. 

Somehow that seems to defeat God's plan, and purpose for creating the world... 

Your plan: man just stays in heaven with God forever since man makes no error. 

Fortunately, God had a better plan.

This came up on my notification as addressed to me but the quote was theplains'... If it was to me, I don't support the notion that Eve wasn't good or that beguilement and error equate to wickedness and evil.

[RevTestament]

7 hours ago, CV75 said:

This came up on my notification as addressed to me but the quote was theplains'... If it was to me, I don't support the notion that Eve wasn't good or that beguilement and error equate to wickedness and evil.

Sorry bout that CV75. I was trying to quote thePlains, but I accidentally quoted you, as you had quoted him with the quote I was wanting to respond to. When I noticed it, I edited my post by removing the quote of you, but didn't have a way of doing a post quote into my post, so just did a generic quote of his post. I guess the notice to you didn't get deleted.

The purpose of my post is to point out a logical conclusion if neither Eve nor Adam had sinned, since Protestants like to claim this was undesirable or some kind of tragedy. The point is not to get into a debate whether Eve or Adam are "Good." It's a hypothetical. 

People take this lesson all so literally. My point is to show what would happen if man had not erred. Then it seems there would be no need for a savior nor indeed, even a need to create this world, but man could just stay up in heaven with God - the End. The point is that just doesn't seem to be the plan. God obviously planned for man to fall. Note that man was given a way to get back to the tree of life, which represents the way prepared for us through our Savior who is the root who sustains this tree - making Him in essence the tree. The tree has fruit for the healing of the nations.

Why was man separated from the tree of life in the first place? So man could learn to exercise his free agency without being "directly connected to God." If God were in us like He is in our Savior, we would not sin. This shows this world was planned as a testing place - a place where man could err without the tragic consequence of being forever separated from God. Rather than being so put off by the result, I think it important to ask why did Adam partake? If he knew Eve had disobeyed, why did he do it? This Protestants ignore too. The story is acting like a parable - it is there as being applicable to all of us. We all eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Eve did not force us, nor does Satan. Indeed, another point of the story is none of this would have happened if God had not given a commandment. Without His word or commandments, man would have stayed in a state of innocence. Man would not spiritually die to the law, since there is no law, and no punishment. On this point I seem to depart from traditional LDS teaching, since I don't believe physical death was introduced into the world by the fall - it was spiritual death. Why? Because without the law there was no death. It was the introduction of the law, which brought about this dualistic result. The story of Adam and Eve is when God introduced His word to the world. The way of the Savior becomes the path to emulate - they way to the tree of life.  That is why Adam is "many." The theology of original sin is complete bupkus. God does not punish us for Adam's sin. We all step into his shoes given this choice. if not, God could not try us. 

1 Peter 1:7

7 That the ^atrial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the ^bappearing of Jesus Christ:

Instead of a bunch of naked, but innocent hunter-gatherers running around, man became civilized. With the law, God introduced writing, a calendar, agriculture, and man became a new creature.

Edited April 12, 2018 by RevTestament

[mfbukowski]

On 4/8/2018 at 8:12 AM, Maidservant said:

First of all, I understand God's words to Adam and Eve to NOT BE His will for them particularly (although in the grand scheme of things, even the passage through evil may be for our good); rather, he is telling them what they are in for in a 'fallen' world, and describing the artifacts (curses) of a 'fallen' world--God is NOT describing holiness, or heaven, or his will for them and for their relationship.  Thus, every time a woman submits to her husband (and quite often, especially in the ages of history, this was a matter of great propagation of evil on many levels), she is participating in the CURSE, rather than participating in BLESSING that is her greatest potential and birthright.  Her greatest potential (as it is for all human beings) is to be free and to govern herself and to be present before God directly.  In terms of her relationship with men or her husband specifically, it is to accept the service and support (not rule) that healthy, holy men naturally and joyfully provide for women; and together joyfully raise children.

Exactly my wife's view as well. That phrase joyfully accepting service" is the key to it all. That is a profound way of seeing it. Seriously profound. Serving and being served yet with joy.

That is the way it should be.

That should be a model for both men and women in the church. He who leads is the servant of all.

Edited April 12, 2018 by mfbukowski

[theplains]

On 12/04/2018 at 8:57 AM, CV75 said:

The correct understanding of this verse, is that the devil uses subtlety to both beguile and corrupt. We can learn from Eve's experience to beware.

From what I have read in LDS teaching materials (and the POGP), Adam and Eve praise God after the Fall when they
supposedly realize their new state.  Eve is even honored/praised for her choice in deciding to disobey (from Religion
327 - Pearl of Great Price Student Manual).

“Some Christians condemn Eve for her act, concluding that she and her daughters are somehow flawed by it. Not the
Latter-day Saints! Informed by revelation, we celebrate Eve’s act and honor her wisdom and courage in the great episode,
called the Fall."

I believe all mankind is flawed with a fallen nature because of the Fall.  Subsequent children of Adam and Eve didn't create
their own 'fall' by their first act of disobedience ... Adam's descendants inherited the fallen nature from the original sin in
the Garden of Eden.  Alma 42:11 seems to contradict this however - "And now, there was no means to reclaim men from
this fallen state, which man had brought upon himself because of his own disobedience."

Should we follow her example of disobedience and also expect to be blessed by God in some other ways?  (as LDS believe
procreation was a blessing given in the Fall as a result of disobedience according to Gospel Principles).

Thanks,
Jim

[RevTestament]

21 minutes ago, theplains said:

I believe all mankind is flawed with a fallen nature because of the Fall.  Subsequent children of Adam and Eve didn't create
their own 'fall' by their first act of disobedience ... Adam's descendants inherited the fallen nature from the original sin in
the Garden of Eden.  Alma 42:11 seems to contradict this however - "And now, there was no means to reclaim men from
this fallen state, which man had brought upon himself because of his own disobedience."

Should we follow her example of disobedience and also expect to be blessed by God in some other ways?

Adam seemed to - why? Was he beguiled by the serpent?

If he had not, what would have happened?

If neither ate the fruit of this symbolic tree by breaking a commandment, would man have lived forever on earth happily ever after? Would God move to earth and abandon heaven despite saying he creates heaven? Would the Son just come to earth occasionally... pat man on the head and say good boy, and no one be glorified to sit on his right hand? What would this look like? I'm just curious what Protestants are advocating....

[CV75]

3 hours ago, theplains said:

From what I have read in LDS teaching materials (and the POGP), Adam and Eve praise God after the Fall when they
supposedly realize their new state.  Eve is even honored/praised for her choice in deciding to disobey (from Religion
327 - Pearl of Great Price Student Manual).

“Some Christians condemn Eve for her act, concluding that she and her daughters are somehow flawed by it. Not the
Latter-day Saints! Informed by revelation, we celebrate Eve’s act and honor her wisdom and courage in the great episode,
called the Fall."

I believe all mankind is flawed with a fallen nature because of the Fall.  Subsequent children of Adam and Eve didn't create
their own 'fall' by their first act of disobedience ... Adam's descendants inherited the fallen nature from the original sin in
the Garden of Eden.  Alma 42:11 seems to contradict this however - "And now, there was no means to reclaim men from
this fallen state, which man had brought upon himself because of his own disobedience."

Should we follow her example of disobedience and also expect to be blessed by God in some other ways?  (as LDS believe
procreation was a blessing given in the Fall as a result of disobedience according to Gospel Principles).

Thanks,
Jim

I believe all mankind is flawed with a fallen nature because of the Fall.  CHECK.

Subsequent children of Adam and Eve didn't create their own 'fall' by their first act of disobedience ... CHECK.

Adam's descendants inherited the fallen nature (CHECK) from the original sin in the Garden of Eden.  NO: ORIGINAL SIN is not a Biblical concept. Moses 6:54 does portray “original guilt” as the principle “wherein the sins of the parents cannot be answered upon the heads of the children.” Our guilt is our own, original to our choices. Adam’s descendants are “conceived in sin,” which is the fallen condition, and in this way inherit the key telestial trait of their parents, namely, the veil—meaning both forgetfulness of our life with God and a body of flesh--in an environment where Satan has influence (see verse 55).

Alma 42:11 seems to contradict this however - "And now, there was no means to reclaim men from this fallen state, which man had brought upon himself because of his own disobedience." I don’t see the contradiction. Adam and Eve did what anyone would have done; they represent what all men and women would have done, what all people do “when they begin to grow up” from innocence, and need to do to be reclaimed.

Should we follow her example of disobedience and also expect to be blessed by God in some other ways?  (as LDS believe procreation was a blessing given in the Fall as a result of disobedience according to Gospel Principles). NO: Nothing of the sort. We should follow her and Adam’s example of humility, repentance and righteous living as the LDS scriptures detail. We can sin without following her example, but I’m not so sure about humility, repentance and righteous living. In either case, we learn from her example and choose to follow that which reclaims us to Christ.

Why do you keep circling back to the notion that LDS promote sin by not condemning Eve?

[theplains]

On 13/04/2018 at 3:24 PM, RevTestament said:

Adam seemed to - why? Was he beguiled by the serpent?

If he had not, what would have happened?

If neither ate the fruit of this symbolic tree by breaking a commandment, would man have lived forever on earth happily ever after? Would God move to earth and abandon heaven despite saying he creates heaven? Would the Son just come to earth occasionally... pat man on the head and say good boy, and no one be glorified to sit on his right hand? What would this look like? I'm just curious what Protestants are advocating....

It all boils down to if you believe in cause and effect.  Did the Fall cause the need for the Atonement or did
a future Atonement cause the need for the Fall?

I believe that Adam and Eve were able to procreate before the Fall (as were the plants and animals).

Jim

[theplains]

On 13/04/2018 at 6:06 PM, CV75 said:

Why do you keep circling back to the notion that LDS promote sin by not condemning Eve?

I didn't say that. The teaching manual says Eve should be praised for her wisdom in deciding to disobey God. Likewise,
the POGP says Adam and Eve supposedly express praise for realising supposed benefits of the Fall.

Jim

[RevTestament]

2 hours ago, theplains said:

It all boils down to if you believe in cause and effect.  Did the Fall cause the need for the Atonement or did
a future Atonement cause the need for the Fall?

I believe that Adam and Eve were able to procreate before the Fall (as were the plants and animals).

Jim

Not if Eve left the garden without Adam.

I believe the story of Adam and Eve is the gospel in a nutshell. It is full of symbolism that people take literally. I am not saying there was not an Adam. I believe God did introduce His law to a man and woman. I am just saying the lesson goes far beyond the "original sin" interpretation - it just completely misses the boat.

[CV75]

7 hours ago, theplains said:

I didn't say that. The teaching manual says Eve should be praised for her wisdom in deciding to disobey God. Likewise,
the POGP says Adam and Eve supposedly express praise for realising supposed benefits of the Fall.

Jim

You did and have been saying that.

CFR on the manual reference so I can comment in context.  I’m sure it is consistent with the following talk by Elder Oaks; I hope you can tolerate reading it: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1993/10/the-great-plan-of-happiness?lang=eng None of this supports your assertion that LDS promote sin by not condemning Eve, and it helps to understand the difference between a sin and a transgression, which is possible by understanding both ancient and latter-day scripture (e.g. Romans 5:14—Jesus transgressed the laws of death).

It seems you are referring to Moses 5:9-11. Their true joy is clearly in their redemption. You have to read it carefully and in good faith to appreciate that. Their perspective on their transgression is not that it was good, but that the power of God is so wonderful that He redeemed their transgression, making something good come out of it through His atonement. This is what Paul taught in Romans 5:15 - 6:2. Note that their new perspective ("eyes are opened") and wisdom were only possible, and thereby expressed, after the Holy Ghost fell upon them and they were filled.

[clarkgoble]

On 4/7/2018 at 9:23 AM, theplains said:

After Adam and Eve ate from the forbidden tree, God said to Eve "... and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and
he shall rule over thee."

The relationship between them had changed.

What was it like before the Fall?

One way of reading this is that what we might call patriarchy (I don't like the feminist appropriation of the term but I'll use it here) is a product of the fall. Prior to that Adam and Even were one flesh, in many Jewish traditions literally a single unified being. They became separated only in Eden. 

[theplains]

On 15/04/2018 at 8:06 PM, CV75 said:

CFR on the manual reference so I can comment in context. 

Religion 327 - The Pearl of Great Price - Student Manual.  

“It was Eve who first transgressed the limits of Eden in order to initiate the conditions of mortality. Her
act, whatever its nature, was formally a transgression but eternally a glorious necessity to open the
doorway toward eternal life. Adam showed his wisdom by doing the same. And thus Eve and ‘Adam
fell that men might be’ [2 Nephi 2:25].

“Some Christians condemn Eve for her act, concluding that she and her daughters are somehow flawed
by it. Not the Latter-day Saints! Informed by revelation, we celebrate Eve’s act and honor her wisdom and
courage in the great episode, called the Fall. . . . Brigham Young declared, ‘We should never blame Mother
Eve, not the least’ (in Journal of Discourses, 13:145). Elder Joseph Fielding Smith said: ‘I never speak of
the part Eve took in this fall as a sin, nor do I accuse Adam of a sin. . . . This was a transgression of the
law, but not a sin . . . for it was something that Adam and Eve had to do!’[Doctrines of Salvation, 1:114
–15]” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1993, 98; or Ensign, Nov. 1993, 73).

All humans are flawed in that they inherit mortality and a fallen nature from this original sin. It is taught
to be a sin by former LDS President Joseph F. Smith and the March 2008 Ensign magazine.

Speaking of law and sin, Alma chapter 42 uses the terms law, sin, punishment, mercy, and atonement.
One particular verse says, "But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted;
which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and
the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease
to be God.   The context ... Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden (verses 1-7).

Thanks,
Jim

[theplains]

On 15/04/2018 at 10:41 PM, clarkgoble said:

One way of reading this is that what we might call patriarchy (I don't like the feminist appropriation of the term but I'll use it here) is a product of the fall. Prior to that Adam and Even were one flesh, in many Jewish traditions literally a single unified being. They became separated only in Eden. 

So patriarchy is actually a blemish on the way Adam and Eve were really created to be in relationship?

Jim

[CV75]

2 hours ago, theplains said:

Religion 327 - The Pearl of Great Price - Student Manual.  

“It was Eve who first transgressed the limits of Eden in order to initiate the conditions of mortality. Her
act, whatever its nature, was formally a transgression but eternally a glorious necessity to open the
doorway toward eternal life. Adam showed his wisdom by doing the same. And thus Eve and ‘Adam
fell that men might be’ [2 Nephi 2:25].

“Some Christians condemn Eve for her act, concluding that she and her daughters are somehow flawed
by it. Not the Latter-day Saints! Informed by revelation, we celebrate Eve’s act and honor her wisdom and
courage in the great episode, called the Fall. . . . Brigham Young declared, ‘We should never blame Mother
Eve, not the least’ (in Journal of Discourses, 13:145). Elder Joseph Fielding Smith said: ‘I never speak of
the part Eve took in this fall as a sin, nor do I accuse Adam of a sin. . . . This was a transgression of the
law, but not a sin . . . for it was something that Adam and Eve had to do!’[Doctrines of Salvation, 1:114
–15]” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1993, 98; or Ensign, Nov. 1993, 73).

All humans are flawed in that they inherit mortality and a fallen nature from this original sin. It is taught
to be a sin by former LDS President Joseph F. Smith and the March 2008 Ensign magazine.

Speaking of law and sin, Alma chapter 42 uses the terms law, sin, punishment, mercy, and atonement.
One particular verse says, "But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted;
which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and
the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease
to be God.   The context ... Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden (verses 1-7).

Thanks,
Jim

As I surmised above, this is consistent with the following talk by Elder Oaks; I hope you can tolerate reading it: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1993/10/the-great-plan-of-happiness?lang=eng None of this supports your assertion that LDS promote sin by not condemning Eve, and it helps to understand the difference between a sin and a transgression, which is possible by understanding both ancient and latter-day scripture (e.g. Romans 5:14—Jesus transgressed the laws of death).

It seems you are referring to Moses 5:9-11. Their true joy is clearly in their redemption. You have to read it carefully and in good faith to appreciate that. Their perspective on their transgression is not that it was good, but that the power of God is so wonderful that He redeemed their transgression, making something good come out of it through His atonement. This is what Paul taught in Romans 5:15 - 6:2. Note that their new perspective ("eyes are opened") and wisdom were only possible, and thereby expressed, after the Holy Ghost fell upon them and they were filled.