Bernard Gui Posted April 18, 2018 Posted April 18, 2018 (edited) On 4/15/2018 at 9:31 AM, theplains said: I didn't say that. The teaching manual says Eve should be praised for her wisdom in deciding to disobey God. Likewise, the POGP says Adam and Eve supposedly express praise for realising supposed benefits of the Fall. Jim Some questions for Protestants I have always wanted to ask... Why is Christ called the Lamb of God who was slain from before the foundation of the world? Was God surprised by the Fall? If he was, why did he allow it to continue? Why not just start over? If he was, why was the way of redemption already put in place before the creation? Is there a finite number of humans that God will place on this earth? What is their condition before birth? If there had been no Fall nor death, would everyone born from the Fall until now still be living in the Garden? Thanks in advance. Edited April 18, 2018 by Bernard Gui
theplains Posted April 20, 2018 Author Posted April 20, 2018 On 17/04/2018 at 8:46 PM, CV75 said: As I surmised above, this is consistent with the following talk by Elder Oaks; I hope you can tolerate reading it: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1993/10/the-great-plan-of-happiness?lang=eng None of this supports your assertion that LDS promote sin by not condemning Eve, and it helps to understand the difference between a sin and a transgression, which is possible by understanding both ancient and latter-day scripture (e.g. Romans 5:14—Jesus transgressed the laws of death). What I'm saying is that Gospel Principles glorifies the Fall with the mention of "great blessings" in chapter 6. Snip: "Some people believe Adam and Eve committed a serious sin when they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. However, latter-day scriptures help us understand that their Fall was a necessary step in the plan of life and a great blessing to all of us." It is referred to as a transgression, but the March 2008 Ensign magazine refers to it as sin. Jim
theplains Posted April 20, 2018 Author Posted April 20, 2018 On 18/04/2018 at 12:13 PM, Bernard Gui said: Some questions for Protestants I have always wanted to ask... Why is Christ called the Lamb of God who was slain from before the foundation of the world? Was God surprised by the Fall? If he was, why did he allow it to continue? Why not just start over? If he was, why was the way of redemption already put in place before the creation? Is there a finite number of humans that God will place on this earth? What is their condition before birth? If there had been no Fall nor death, would everyone born from the Fall until now still be living in the Garden? Thanks in advance. Before I attempt to answer your questions, I would like to know if you believe the Fall caused the need for an Atonement, or do you believe the Atonement caused the need for the Fall? What is your cause and what is your effect? As for your last question, there is no indication that Adam and Eve (and their descendants) would have forever remained in the Garden had they never sinned. Unless you believe the Garden was large enough to be able to accommodate millions or more of people, plants, and animals. God never told Adam and Eve where they could not go, but he commanded what they should not eat. Thanks, Jim
CV75 Posted April 20, 2018 Posted April 20, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, theplains said: What I'm saying is that Gospel Principles glorifies the Fall with the mention of "great blessings" in chapter 6. Snip: "Some people believe Adam and Eve committed a serious sin when they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. However, latter-day scriptures help us understand that their Fall was a necessary step in the plan of life and a great blessing to all of us." It is referred to as a transgression, but the March 2008 Ensign magazine refers to it as sin. Jim I don't read it that way at all. Edited April 20, 2018 by CV75
Bernard Gui Posted April 21, 2018 Posted April 21, 2018 (edited) 9 hours ago, theplains said: Before I attempt to answer your questions, I would like to know if you believe the Fall caused the need for an Atonement, or do you believe the Atonement caused the need for the Fall? What is your cause and what is your effect? As for your last question, there is no indication that Adam and Eve (and their descendants) would have forever remained in the Garden had they never sinned. Unless you believe the Garden was large enough to be able to accommodate millions or more of people, plants, and animals. God never told Adam and Eve where they could not go, but he commanded what they should not eat. Thanks, Jim I’m not here to debate the Fall and Atonement. I know where I stand on those questions. I sincerely would like to hear your answers. I don’t intend to rebut them. For the sake of clarity, my last question does not imply they would have been limited to the space available in the Garden, but that was not going to be a part of the plan anyway. To answer your question....”if you believe the Fall caused the need for an Atonement, or do you believe the Atonement caused the need for the Fall? What is your cause and what is your effect?” I believe neither version. I believe the Fall and the Atonement are the essential and inseparable components of God’s eternal plan that was established from before the foundation of the world. Hence, the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world. The “cause and effect” is simply God’s love for his children. It is manifested by His promised purpose in which He would give them the opportunity of immortality and eternal life - to become like Him. Without the Fall/Atonement that would not be possible. I hope that is sufficient answer for you to respond to mine. Edited April 21, 2018 by Bernard Gui
theplains Posted April 23, 2018 Author Posted April 23, 2018 On 18/04/2018 at 12:13 PM, Bernard Gui said: Some questions for Protestants I have always wanted to ask... Why is Christ called the Lamb of God who was slain from before the foundation of the world? Was God surprised by the Fall? If he was, why did he allow it to continue? Why not just start over? If he was, why was the way of redemption already put in place before the creation? Is there a finite number of humans that God will place on this earth? What is their condition before birth? If there had been no Fall nor death, would everyone born from the Fall until now still be living in the Garden? Thanks in advance. q. Why is Christ called the Lamb of God who was slain from before the foundation of the world? God foreknew this. But on the other hand, Jesus is called the Only Begotten but LDS teach all spirit children are begotten of heavenly parents. q. Was God surprised by the Fall? If he was, why did he allow it to continue? Why not just start over? God was not surprised. I believe God would have created another woman for Eve if he had chosen to remain obedient to Him. q. If he was, why was the way of redemption already put in place before the creation? I believe the Fall caused the need for the atonement. You didn't mention what you believe are the the cause and effect. q. Is there a finite number of humans that God will place on this earth? What is their condition before birth? I don't believe humans existed in some spirit world before being born on earth. At the moment of birth, they already inherit Adam's fallen nature. They don't have their own 'Fall' when committing their first sin. They are born 'fallen.' I don't know how many humans will be born on earth with mortal bodies. q. If there had been no Fall nor death, would everyone born from the Fall until now still be living in the Garden? Since God did not restrict the living boundaries of Adam and Eve, I believe they would have eventually moved beyond their borders as the population grew. I don't even know how many plants, animals, and humans the Garden itself could accomodate. Also, there is no reason to believe the areas outside the Garden were devoid of vegetation. Jim
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