KUTV report reveals how the LDS Church responded to MTC sex scandal

[katherine the great]

35 minutes ago, Calm said:

 (except for the Tyler Title IX lawsuit and history...where Tyler made it clear, iirc, there was nothing sexual in his behaviour towards women).  

Nothing to indicate that he made any inappropriate sexual advances to women at that time, but the lesbian witch hunt he tried to engage her in was quite bizarre IMO.

[Calm]

16 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

The rules may have changed a time or two. If memory serves, the was a time when one could have had a child out of wedlock, gone through the repentance process and could still serve if the child had been adopted (probably varied from case to case and special permission from GA required). No young man could serve if he had any legal/financial obligation for a child.

Very helpful.  Makes sense.

Some of those expressing surprise were younger, from the era where less adoptions and more keeping the kid happens, so maybe that is why they understood it as to be a restriction.

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

Nothing to indicate that he made any inappropriate sexual advances to women at that time, but the lesbian witch hunt he tried to engage her in was quite bizarre IMO.

That was so creepy.

Between that and the way he talked about his wives, he seems to have unhealthy relationships with women.  He had five sons iirc and no daughters to help move him past his hangups.

Edited April 7, 2018 by Calm

[katherine the great]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

Between that and the way he talked about his wives, he seems to have unhealthy relationships with women.  

My thoughts exactly.

[readstoomuch]

Wow about USU.  One of my children had an awesome experience with piano at BYUI.  Sometimes people don’t know about their music program.  They married another music major that says nothing but good things.  Too bad they are inactive.  Can’t have everything I guess.

[Jeanne]

34 minutes ago, juliann said:

I believe each side will manipulate and twist facts to their advantage. That is why no one trusts lawyers and courts anymore. That aside, for me it is more about what I believe about him. The stories that came out about Weber College sealed the deal for me after he admitted to egregious behavior in the tape. I have no reason, none, to disbelieve HIM.  There is no room for what he seems to think were little slips. He has to be held to a higher standard as a Mission Prez. The family has made no claim of "senility." He appears to be living on his own. I'm not buying the incompetency excuse. 

There is also a scandal developing at USU in the music department. This isn't directly to the church, but it shows that we are only beginning to scratch the service of how pervasive this is and how long it can go on without any intervention.

Thank you Juliann  I tend to agree with a lot you say here.  Being in Cache Valley, I am very aware of the talk of the music department .  My neighbor had a son that participated as a composer in the music department there.  He hated it and the program itself was not good.  I was very disappointed of the things I have heard. 

[katherine the great]

2 hours ago, Jeanne said:

are you more inclined to believe her or disbelieve her?  BTW:  I ask this question to all mormon women on this board today..if you may answer..thank you.

I am leaning towards believing her (or at least the gist of what she is saying about Bishop--not sure about all the details). I was intrigued by what his Weber State colleague (Ms Tyler) had to say about him. Tyler strikes me as as a completely credible individual and her remarks were recorded not too many years after her experience with him. She painted a picture of Bishop as a charismatic man with huge character flaws and a complete lack of understanding of or empathy for women. She also called him a dishonest person who could have moments of complete ruthlessness. Bishop's own words paint him as a person who was ambitious with an end goal of being a general authority. He expressed that he felt that his relationships with women were the one barrier to obtaining that goal. Lots of subtle clues point to the character of a man who has the potential to commit sexual violence against women.  And let me say that most of the LDS men I know do not fit this description. I have had overwhelmingly positive experiences with my male LDS leaders, but the few that were not positive have convinced me that there are some really bad eggs out there. That kind can do a lot of damage.

I agree with Cal though that there are some big issues with the Plaintiff's credibility. I understand that many traumatized people "act out", but I'm still going back and forth about that. But it defies logic that she would recall that weird little room (which he verified and an independent employee verified) and still think that she just made it all up. Something happened in that room and I am inclined to believe that it was some kind of sexual assault.

[Jeanne]

4 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

I am leaning towards believing her (or at least the gist of what she is saying about Bishop--not sure about all the details). I was intrigued by what his Weber State colleague (Ms Tyler) had to say about him. Tyler strikes me as as a completely credible individual and her remarks were recorded not too many years after her experience with him. She painted a picture of Bishop as a charismatic man with huge character flaws and a complete lack of understanding of or empathy for women. She also called him a dishonest person who could have moments of complete ruthlessness. Bishop's own words paint him as a person who was ambitious with an end goal of being a general authority. He expressed that he felt that his relationships with women were the one barrier to obtaining that goal. Lots of subtle clues point to the character of a man who has the potential to commit sexual violence against women.  And let me say that most of the LDS men I know do not fit this description. I have had overwhelmingly positive experiences with my male LDS leaders, but the few that were not positive have convinced me that there are some really bad eggs out there. That kind can do a lot of damage.

I agree with Cal though that there are some big issues with the Plaintiff's credibility. I understand that many traumatized people "act out", but I'm still going back and forth about that. But it defies logic that she would recall that weird little room (which he verified and an independent employee verified) and still think that she just made it all up. Something happened in that room and I am inclined to believe that it was some kind of sexual assault.

Thank you so much.  I love the fact that you women are so honest...and fair.  Whether we all agree or disagree on anything, we want justice on all sides.

[JulieM]

11 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Thank you so much.  I love the fact that you women are so honest...and fair.  Whether we all agree or disagree on anything, we want justice on all sides.

Amen.

katherine, Calm, and juliann, I appreciate your perspectives and fairness.  Thanks.

Calm, I’m still going back and getting caught up and reading, but you have such an ability to express a balanced view.  I’m learning from you!

[juliann]

30 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Amen.

katherine, Calm, and juliann, I appreciate your perspectives and fairness.  Thanks.

Calm, I’m still going back and getting caught up and reading, but you have such an ability to express a balanced view.  I’m learning from you!

I'm reading a FB thread that is stomach churning in the eagerness to attack everything about her,  the obvious purpose being to protect him....obivious because the questioning never goes to his behavior, only her story about it. It is as if his admissions on that tape evaporated....or it isn't serious because it can't be proved he raped her.  I don't get it. 

[juliann]

1 hour ago, katherine the great said:

Nothing to indicate that he made any inappropriate sexual advances to women at that time, but the lesbian witch hunt he tried to engage her in was quite bizarre IMO.

In that era, I don't find it surprising that sexual harrassment wouldn't be reported. It looks like there was plenty of other stuff so it would make little sense to open that can of worms. It would have discredited the women rather than helped them, at that time women "provoked" undue attention. Given what was reported, I would find it odd for him not to have sexually harrassed along with it. It is curious that we have heard nothing from the dean, not even a report that an attempt to interview her was made. 

[Gray]

5 hours ago, provoman said:

CFR. Please show that I materially altered the quotes.

I put brackets for context - the brackets was after the “We” which showd that the we was the attorneys and victim.

You all seem very desparate to deny what happened, you all are entitled to deny.

 

 

The brackets materially alter the quotes. Quotes that you made up from whole cloth are shown below in giant red letters.

 

6 hours ago, provoman said:

Response: We [attorneys and the victim] wonder [how we can trust the Q15]

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, juliann said:

In that era, I don't find it surprising that sexual harrassment wouldn't be reported. It looks like there was plenty of other stuff so it would make little sense to open that can of worms. It would have discredited the women rather than helped them, at that time women "provoked" undue attention. Given what was reported, I would find it odd for him not to have sexually harrassed along with it. It is curious that we have heard nothing from the dean, not even a report that an attempt to interview her was made. 

She is currently employed at the Utah Board of Education/Utah State Office of Education

https://www.uen.org/institutions/staff?sid=8

Took me two minutes to track her down (through a BYU paper that stated she left BYU for the BoE).

Edited April 7, 2018 by Calm

[JulieM]

15 hours ago, juliann said:

I'm reading a FB thread that is stomach churning in the eagerness to attack everything about her,  the obvious purpose being to protect him....obivious because the questioning never goes to his behavior, only her story about it. It is as if his admissions on that tape evaporated....or it isn't serious because it can't be proved he raped her.  I don't get it. 

It’s very disturbing to read and hear the reactions of some church members about this case.  I understand that it upsets members when someone sues the church.  But I have to wonder if many have just not taken the time to research this case and see the overwhelming evidence that Mckenna was abused (and see Bishop’s pattern of abusive behavior from other witnesses) and then only have compassion for her and what she’s gone through over these past 30 years (on top of being abused by her step-father).

I’ve read comments like,

”What is wrong with her?  This was 30 years ago!  Get over it already.”

Get over it?  It’s unbelievable to me that anyone could have that callous of an attitude.  

Edited April 8, 2018 by JulieM

[readstoomuch]

 Yes, I don`t know how Bishop comes out of this looking good.  Even if it didn`t go down exactly the way or as “bad” as some of the implications, he doesn`t look good.  Badmouthing her doesn`t get the Lord`s work further along.  I understand that for stalwart LDS (I would like to say I am one of those) can get tired of liberal, progressive, intellectual and yes those who feel like they are victims of the LDS system.  It can take some real charity and long suffering in trying to interact with these people.  It is important to dialogue with them.  Listen to what they have to say.  Ask a few questions.  Usually you take away some thought that helps you to be a better Christian.  You still may not agree with them and find their “special interest” a nuisance.  Sort of the just get over it already.  Like they are saying about McKenna and the 30 years since this happened.  I think for the most part being LDS has really helped my life in profound ways.  There have been times where I have been really challenged and it has been hard.  For some people it is really hard to get over those challenges and the less Christ-like the interaction was, the more it hurt them.  This is part of comforting those who are in need of comfort in Mosiah 18.  This doesn`t keep me from reading all the facts and eventually coming to some conclusions, but Christ asks more from me than just judging.  This situation has made me mourn.  I am not sure there is a perfect way to vet (vett?) people going to any calling in any organization.  Having two in primary is going to help, but means even more callings to fill in the primary.  Our ward is going to spend some time talking to all of the auxiliaries about the Church guidelines about abuse.  I care greatly that our children and youth are taught in a loving, protected environment the gospel of Jesus Christ.  

Attorneys can make you feel attacked.  I have been in that situation.  They were business and professional situations.  I had my own attorneys representing me.  It was 12,000 dollars for one situation and I was totally in the right.  The other side just had this false belief about them being right.  We tried to negotiate and go about it nonconfrontationally.  It wasn`t until we threatened to sue that we finally got any where.  I eventually got justice, but not without many holding a grudge about the situation.  This took about six months to finally settle.  I am willing to give this six months to let the facts get out.  I wonder what I will feel about it then.  

[Marginal Gains]

Is Bishop still a member of the Church?

[Jeanne]

6 hours ago, JulieM said:

It’s very disturbing to read and hear the reactions of some church members about this case.  I understand that it upsets members when someone sues the church.  But I have to wonder if many have just not taken the time to research this case and see the overwhelming evidence that Mckenna was abused (and see Bishop’s pattern of abusive behavior from other witnesses) and then only have compassion for her and what she’s gone through over these past 30 years (on top of being abused by her step-father).

I’ve read comments like,

”What is wrong with her?  This was 30 years ago!  Get over it already.”

Get over it?  It’s unbelievable to me that anyone could have that callous of an attitude.  

As I have stated on different post on different threads..I began to read the Book of Mormon again a month and half ago...I could longer find any spirit that could let me turn a page when I realized all of this...yes, I am being open to what is truth and not due to lawyers..but my gut says to walk away again.  I have read some of these facebook things...and can't forget ..hugs Julie..I know not all mormons are like this.but right now ....I think..these are not my people.

Edited April 8, 2018 by Jeanne

[Tacenda]

I think it's interesting that the church says they don't have the investigative abilities yet their lawyers dug up all kinds of things on Mckenna.

How did this fact escape me on this thread, I'd have to go back through the thread to find where people post that the church doesn't handle that kind of thing. But it's right in front of our eyes.

How did the lawyers for the church even get all of that info they sent to Greg Bishop, if the church doesn't have that ability?!? 

I apologize if this has already been answered.

Edited April 9, 2018 by Tacenda

[Calm]

Danzo explained it was relatively easy, a couple a hundred for a fee and a little time, the lawyer (maybe a paralegal doing assistant work perhaps?) types in the person's name or names, and it pulls up the criminal history.  

 I wonder how much we could get just by using background check services offered anytime I look up someone online trying to find a phone number...anyone know?

[Amulek]

16 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

Is Bishop still a member of the Church?

As far as I know, yes.

 

[ALarson]

8 hours ago, Calm said:

Danzo explained it was relatively easy, a couple a hundred for a fee and a little time, the lawyer (maybe a paralegal doing assistant work perhaps?) types in the person's name or names, and it pulls up the criminal history.  

Yes, but that wouldn't have discovered all of the information that they have on Denson.  For example, the information on her daughter who she put up for adoption (including her adopted name that should have been kept confidential) that most likely came from private files at LDS family services.  

(Also, if you read reviews on those online background lookup sites....if those are what you are referring to....the reviews are not great and are filled with people stating that the information was not accurate or incomplete.  I have to believe that the church and their attorneys would not have only utilized this type of service to get the background information on Denson.)

Edited April 9, 2018 by ALarson

[Marginal Gains]

17 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

Is Bishop still a member of the Church?

 

1 hour ago, Amulek said:

As far as I know, yes.

 

I’m staggered.

The guy had a porn den in the basement of an MTC. He has been reported Five? Six? times, across a thirty year period. He’s confessed, on police record to various levels of sexual abuse. The existence of the porn den has been corroborated.

Will he be in the next “Meet The Mormons”?

Edited April 9, 2018 by Marginal Gains

[Amulek]

7 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

On 4/8/2018 at 3:53 PM, Marginal Gains said:

Is Bishop still a member of the Church?

9 hours ago, Amulek said:

As far as I know, yes.

I’m staggered.

I'm not. The Atonement of Christ has more than enough horsepower to handle anything that has even been hinted at (let alone proved) in the Bishop case. 

As such, the only question that matters with respect to his membership is whether or not he has actually fully repented of his previous sins. The answer to that question, however, is outside my purview. 

 

[Calm]

9 hours ago, ALarson said:

Yes, but that wouldn't have discovered all of the information that they have on Denson.  For example, the information on her daughter who she put up for adoption (including her adopted name that should have been kept confidential) that most likely came from private files at LDS family services.  

(Also, if you read reviews on those online background lookup sites....if those are what you are referring to....the reviews are not great and are filled with people stating that the information was not accurate or incomplete.  I have to believe that the church and their attorneys would not have only utilized this type of service to get the background information on Denson.)

 I was talking about a different service for the attorneys, but was wondering if the general online background lookup sites did the same thing...good to know they do not.  That makes me feel better.  I think it is a good idea for lawyers and law enforcement to have that info at their fingertips, but glad the general public do not.

As far as the church record info...I am assuming, perhaps incorrectly, there is a master database that has all the factual info that connects to a member and this is what the Church press release was talking about when it said that at times legal advisors were given access.  I have no clue if bishops write down any confessional material.  It seems unlikely they do.  However, it would not surprise me if there were annotations of "use of FSS approved for _____" on the record in order to ensure there is no misuse of the services.  

It does appear that access to her FSS file was also given, too be honest I am not sure I am okay with that as I wouldn't approve of a psychiatrist or doctor handing over files to the Church and this seems in that line.  I get that the Church foots the bill, but still not sure that makes it appropriate for them to have access to that type of info.

Perhaps a bishop could clarify if any notes are kept from confessional interviews (outside of annotations a person should not be called to work with youth or other safety issue) if none have yet.

[Calm]

12 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

 

I’m staggered.

The guy had a porn den in the basement of an MTC. He has been reported Five? Six? times, across a thirty year period. He’s confessed, on police record to various levels of sexual abuse. The existence of the porn den has been corroborated.

But not the existence of porn, iirc, just the existence of a room with a VHS machine...not sure if he said there was a bed or not.  And he was reporting after Bishop was there apparently.  He is also anonymous so his own credibility has not been verified publicly at least.

Nor has the confession of rape, molestation, or assault been confirmed.  Bishop did not specify what he was confessing and honestly he appears to be a liar, so I am not sure we should be concluding he confessed at all instead of just wanting to look good to Denson in the interview and to pass the buck as he did several times in the interview.

Edited April 10, 2018 by Calm