The Lines..The Fine Lines..Between Mormons and It's Said Critics

[Jeanne]

First of all, I really did not want to use the word critic in this title..but just couldn't find another way to express all those on different levels that sometimes disagrees.

In any case, I am wondering if for all this time on this board, if any of you active and believing mormons have come to at least a better understanding of those like me..if you have even learned anything..or are you still filled with a certain contempt.  Do you listen to understand..or immediately disagree?   Personally, I have seen all sides of many posters..and yet because I joined in 2008 to understand better mormon women..I am seeing all kinds of changes..good ones.  So if anyone wants to let me know if we are valued at all..here on this board..would you share and that will work both ways in your honesty.  I would be the first to say that I have learned so much from all of you..on both sides and those on the fence..I have learned.  Our voices though are not often heard in general membership..yours and mine.

Would it help if they did?

Edited to add:...I know that I am way too flippant and non thinking when I post..for those times I hope to be forgiven..I was angry for so long and letting go was hard and often still is.

Edited March 29, 2018 by Jeanne

[jkwilliams]

I know you didn't ask me, but I've learned from pretty much everyone here. I would hope that we can all learn from each other instead of seeing each other as at best "the other team" and at worst "the enemy." We're all just people.

And yes, I value your participation here, and not just because we're on the same team. 

[Jeanne]

1 minute ago, jkwilliams said:

I know you didn't ask me, but I've learned from pretty much everyone here. I would hope that we can all learn from each other instead of seeing each other as at best "the other team" and at worst "the enemy." We're all just people.

And yes, I value your participation here, and not just because we're on the same team. 

Thank you..you have spoken my own thoughts..the us versus them..leaves us without learning anything.

[Jeanne]

I would so much like to get the anti out at least to those who are former mormons.

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

First of all, I really did not want to use the word critic in this title..but just couldn't find another way to express all those on different levels that sometimes disagrees.

In any case, I am wondering if for all this time on this board, if any of you active and believing mormons have come to at least a better understanding of those like me..if you have even learned anything..or are you still filled with a certain contempt.  Do you listen to understand..or immediately disagree?   Personally, I have seen all sides of many posters..and yet because I joined in 2008 to understand better mormon women..I am seeing all kinds of changes..good ones.  So if anyone wants to let me know if we are valued at all..here on this board..would you share and that will work both ways in your honesty.  I would be the first to say that I have learned so much from all of you..on both sides and those on the fence..I have learned.  Our voices though are not often heard in general membership..yours and mine.

Would it help if they did?

Edited to add:...I know that I am way too flippant and non thinking when I post..for those times I hope to be forgiven..I was angry for so long and letting go was hard and often still is.

I believe you to be "an honest critic." I use anti to refer to those who use any tidbit they can get ahold of against the Church - they often twist the truth as well - for instance using quotes out of context, etc. You are someone who began to have doubts when the whitewashed version of the Church you had learned began to experience cracks, and that is natural Jeanne. As one who has had doubts as well, I understand exactly where you are coming from. I appreciate your honesty like you appreciate mine, and believe one day you can have another change of heart like I did. I am glad you stick around and are willing to learn more. I appreciate those with a dedication to having an open mind, and can identify with their struggles as well as their triumphs. If I have a certain "contempt" for anyone it is not the honest critic, but the closed-minded - both within and without the Church. For the closed-minded will not grow nor progress.

God bless, Jeanne

[smac97]

2 hours ago, Jeanne said:

First of all, I really did not want to use the word critic in this title..but just couldn't find another way to express all those on different levels that sometimes disagrees.

In any case, I am wondering if for all this time on this board, if any of you active and believing mormons have come to at least a better understanding of those like me..if you have even learned anything..

"Have come to at least a better understanding" as a consequence of what?

2 hours ago, Jeanne said:

or are you still filled with a certain contempt. 

"Still filled?"  Loading questions, much?

2 hours ago, Jeanne said:

Do you listen to understand..or immediately disagree?  

I am here to discuss the doctrines and history of the LDS Church.

2 hours ago, Jeanne said:

Personally, I have seen all sides of many posters..and yet because I joined in 2008 to understand better mormon women..I am seeing all kinds of changes..good ones.  So if anyone wants to let me know if we are valued at all..here on this board..would you share and that will work both ways in your honesty. 

Yes, you have innate value.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Jeanne]

4 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

I believe you to be "an honest critic." I use anti to refer to those who use any tidbit they can get ahold of against the Church - they often twist the truth as well - for instance using quotes out of context, etc. You are someone who began to have doubts when the whitewashed version of the Church you had learned began to experience cracks, and that is natural Jeanne. As one who has had doubts as well, I understand exactly where you are coming from. I appreciate your honesty like you appreciate mine, and believe one day you can have another change of heart like I did. I am glad you stick around and are willing to learn more. I appreciate those with a dedication to having an open mind, and can identify with their struggles as well as their triumphs. If I have a certain "contempt" for anyone it is not the honest critic, but the closed-minded - both within and without the Church. For the closed-minded will not grow nor progress.

God bless, Jeanne

Thank you for your sweet honesty.  I believe your post here reinstates what I believe..no matter what..we are all children of God.

[Jeanne]

3 minutes ago, smac97 said:

"Have come to at least a better understanding" as a consequence of what?

"Still filled?"  Loading questions, much?

I am here to discuss the doctrines and history of the LDS Church.

Yes, you have innate value.

Thanks,

-Smac

Hmmm..thanks Smac..you are always honest and always with a point and on point.  Didn't mean to post a loaded question..uh..thank you!!  Seeing as how you are here to discuss doctrine and history..I won't expect any more replies from you..but thanks for your input.

Edited March 29, 2018 by Jeanne

[Robert F. Smith]

8 hours ago, Jeanne said:

..........................................  So if anyone wants to let me know if we are valued at all..here on this board..would you share and that will work both ways in your honesty.  I would be the first to say that I have learned so much from all of you..on both sides and those on the fence..I have learned.  Our voices though are not often heard in general membership..yours and mine.

Would it help if they did?.................................

Might be too discordant for the general membership.  They aren't comfortable with anything jarring or unfamiliar. What is fine and dandy for this board may not be so appropriate for the Sunday block.

Last Sunday, for example, our Gospel Doctrine Teacher quoted the late Apostle Mark E. Petersen to the effect that Joseph's wife Asenath (daughter of the Priest of Heliopolis, the center of Egyptian Sun-worship) was definitely not Egyptian.  Elder Petersen apparently could not abide the notion that the mother of Ephraim & Manasseh was Egyptian.  I said nothing.  Let sleeping dogs lie.

[The Nehor]

Indeed I have learned much of critics here. Much valuable intel is gained. And I definitely use this knowledge to improve my personal understanding and do not endure all this heresy in order to collect it and forward it all to my Danite superiors to be used on the imminent day of cleansing.

[gopher]

I don't get the impression that ex-mos, non-mormons, and the occasional EVs that stop by are looked at with contempt here.  The most heated and entertaining discussions seem to happen between the full believers and the faith crisis crowd.  I think many of them consider themselves on the playing field and everyone else is either cheering or jeering on the sidelines.  When you have little or no skin in the game, I think it influences how others interact with you.  And I think I'm done with sports metaphors for the day.

[smac97]

16 hours ago, Jeanne said:

Hmmm..thanks Smac..you are always honest and always with a point and on point.  Didn't mean to post a loaded question..uh..thank you!!  Seeing as how you are here to discuss doctrine and history..I won't expect any more replies from you..but thanks for your input.

I have learned a lot from the divergent viewpoints on this board.

I regularly re-examine what I believe and why I believe it because of the divergent viewpoints on this board.

I respect differences of opinion.  I accept that reasonable minds can disagree about all sorts of things, including important things.

I take exception to the casual insults and slurs so regularly tossed out by (some) critics and opponents against things which I hold dear and sacred.

As for your "voice" being heard by the "general membership," I'm not sure what that means.  Robert has a point.  People like me come to a message board like this looking for diverse viewpoints on, and even outright disagreement with and criticism of, the LDS Church and its doctrines and history.  It would be quite another scenario of critics went about offering unsolicited criticisms and insults about Mormonism in the three-hour block, or at a ward activity.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited March 30, 2018 by smac97

[Jeanne]

11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Indeed I have learned much of critics here. Much valuable intel is gained. And I definitely use this knowledge to improve my personal understanding and do not endure all this heresy in order to collect it and forward it all to my Danite superiors to be used on the imminent day of cleansing.

I am happy that you don't forward all this intel...you are a joker...I love you...but I think you are sincere when you say you may have learned something...I have certainly learned from you...but I won't send it to anybody in my headquarters..

[The Nehor]

27 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I am happy that you don't forward all this intel...you are a joker...I love you...but I think you are sincere when you say you may have learned something...I have certainly learned from you...but I won't send it to anybody in my headquarters..

I appreciate that. The Quorum of the Twelve Apostates who meet in the secret tunnels under Salt Lake City and meet weekly with Satan personally must know nothing of what is going on.

If you think I made that up....no. Guy on my mission told me with utter solemnity that that is how the kingdom of the devil is organized and that this quorum controls the Illuminati and the Masons and the Jewish International Banking conspiracy, etc. and controls virtually everything in the world and is the greatest threat the LDS Church faces.

Edited March 30, 2018 by The Nehor

[Maestrophil]

Jeanne,

 

I am glad you posted this.  I was going to write a post a few weeks ago to let the board know what a difference it has made in my life, but I changed my mind, because I thought the post would seem to self-serving.

I can safely say that this board has helped me get through a faith crisis, departure of my family from the church, persecution from same family, a painful divorce with my ex wife leaving the faith and encouraging some of our kids to follow suit.  I was met with kindness and an understanding tone from both members and 'critics' alike.  Everyone here has given me faith that civil dialog can happen.  I was even able to come get some great insights from the disaffected members here on how to interact with my family, and what things I should and should not accept from them.  It was refreshing to hear disaffected members 1. help me better understand my family and 2. let me know when their actions were not appropriate.

I feel like everyone here would be willing to help me, and that is rare to find in any community - let alone an 'anonymous' one like this.

 

MP

Edited March 30, 2018 by Maestrophil
too vs to :-)

[Jeanne]

10 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

Jeanne,

 

I am glad you posted this.  I was going to write a post a few weeks ago to let the board know what a difference it has made in my life, but I changed my mind, because I thought the post would seem to self-serving.

I can safely say that this board has helped me get through a faith crisis, departure of my family from the church, persecution from same family, a painful divorce with my ex wife leaving the faith and encouraging some of our kids to follow suit.  I was met with kindness and an understanding tone from both members and 'critics' alike.  Everyone here has given me faith that civil dialog can happen.  I was even able to come get some great insights from the disaffected members here on how to interact with my family, and what things I should and should not accept from them.  It was refreshing to hear disaffected members 1. help me better understand my family and 2. let me know when their actions were not appropriate.

I feel like everyone here would be willing to help me, and that is rare to find in any community - let alone an 'anonymous' one like this.

 

MP

Thank you...this is what I like to hear.  That all of us can somehow benefit each other is a commentary to our humaness..sometimes our pain..and reaching out not ashamed that we are in need.

[carbon dioxide]

21 hours ago, Jeanne said:

I would so much like to get the anti out at least to those who are former mormons.

Anti-- a person who is opposed to a particular practice, party, policy, action, etc.

Simple being a former LDS does not mean being anti.  Holding a different view does not make one anti.   It is how one acts that determines whether they are anti.   There is a line between "I have a different point of view" and "No, you are wrong" or "The Church could do this instead" and "The church is wrong on this." 

 

[Jeanne]

4 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

Anti-- a person who is opposed to a particular practice, party, policy, action, etc.

Simple being a former LDS does not mean being anti.  Holding a different view does not make one anti.   It is how one acts that determines whether they are anti.   There is a line between "I have a different point of view" and "No, you are wrong" or "The Church could do this instead" and "The church is wrong on this." 

 

Thank you...thank you...and thank you..how often have I tried to explain to Scott.  I hold dearly so  many things of my childhood church..thank you!

[Maestrophil]

11 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Thank you...thank you...and thank you..how often have I tried to explain to Scott.  I hold dearly so  many things of my childhood church..thank you!

In my mind - as soon as a person crosses over into personal insults of either members for believing, or church leaders for leading - they are anti in my book.  In other words - if you say, "I don't accept Russell Nelson as a prophet and feel he is misleading people."  Then that is the start of a discussion.  But, "Nelson is a con-artist and a terrible fraud, and anyone who defends or believes him is a duped, brainwashed rube, " is fuel for fire, and smacks of an agenda - an anti-LDS agenda.  

 

It's all in the approach. 

Edited March 30, 2018 by Maestrophil

[jkwilliams]

50 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

Jeanne,

 

I am glad you posted this.  I was going to write a post a few weeks ago to let the board know what a difference it has made in my life, but I changed my mind, because I thought the post would seem to self-serving.

I can safely say that this board has helped me get through a faith crisis, departure of my family from the church, persecution from same family, a painful divorce with my ex wife leaving the faith and encouraging some of our kids to follow suit.  I was met with kindness and an understanding tone from both members and 'critics' alike.  Everyone here has given me faith that civil dialog can happen.  I was even able to come get some great insights from the disaffected members here on how to interact with my family, and what things I should and should not accept from them.  It was refreshing to hear disaffected members 1. help me better understand my family and 2. let me know when their actions were not appropriate.

I feel like everyone here would be willing to help me, and that is rare to find in any community - let alone an 'anonymous' one like this.

 

MP

I'm so sorry you went through these painful experiences. I'm glad you have found some support here.

[Jeanne]

3 hours ago, gopher said:

I don't get the impression that ex-mos, non-mormons, and the occasional EVs that stop by are looked at with contempt here.  The most heated and entertaining discussions seem to happen between the full believers and the faith crisis crowd.  I think many of them consider themselves on the playing field and everyone else is either cheering or jeering on the sidelines.  When you have little or no skin in the game, I think it influences how others interact with you.  And I think I'm done with sports metaphors for the day.

Thank you...I love sports and their metaphors...so your post is a slam dunk...a touchdown...and homerun.  Thank you for your post.

[Jeanne]

4 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

In my mind - as soon as a person crosses over into personal insults of either members for believing, or church leaders for leading - they are anti in my book.  In other words - if you say, "I don't accept Russell Nelson as a prophet and feel he is misleading people."  Then that is the start of a discussion.  But, "Nelson is a con-artist and a terrible fraud, and anyone who defends or believes him is a duped, brainwashed rube, " is fuel for fire, and smacks of an agenda - an anti-LDS agenda.  

 

It's all in the approach. 

I understand what you are saying..and so glad that you told me.  Now i can approach things in a different manner..and think before I post if I want sincere answers.

[Maestrophil]

2 hours ago, Jeanne said:

I understand what you are saying..and so glad that you told me.  Now i can approach things in a different manner..and think before I post if I want sincere answers.

BTW, I was not insinuating that you need to change anything based on my interactions with you here.  :-)

Edited March 30, 2018 by Maestrophil

[FormerLDS]

3 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Anti-- a person who is opposed to a particular practice, party, policy, action, etc.

Simple being a former LDS does not mean being anti.  Holding a different view does not make one anti.   It is how one acts that determines whether they are anti.   There is a line between "I have a different point of view" and "No, you are wrong" or "The Church could do this instead" and "The church is wrong on this." 

I echo what CD is saying here.  I think the word "Anti-Mormon" is a play on words invented (probably inadvertently) by the LDS to label those who - for whatever reason - choose to disbelieve LDS theology.  Totally unfair.  There's not a single "Anti-Mormon" bone in my body.  If anything I'm Pro-Mormon...but "Anti-Mormonism".   

[The Nehor]

7 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

I echo what CD is saying here.  I think the word "Anti-Mormon" is a play on words invented (probably inadvertently) by the LDS to label those who - for whatever reason - choose to disbelieve LDS theology.  Totally unfair.  There's not a single "Anti-Mormon" bone in my body.  If anything I'm Pro-Mormon...but "Anti-Mormonism".   

I don’t hate you. I just hate what you are. Is that supposed to be a meaningful distinction?

Edited March 30, 2018 by The Nehor