There was a second woman, and the church knew

[rockpond]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

But what your case is requires tithing dollars to have been the only source that ever paid for anything, otherwise at least a percentage of the source money was not tithing and there some of the money produced these days is ultimately not from tithing dollars.

Consecrated funds are not the same as tithing, imo.  If you wish to debate the problem of using anything consecrated, that is imo, something different.

I respect that you see them as different but I see no difference in how tithing dollars vs consecrated funds should be treated. 

[rockpond]

1 hour ago, cdowis said:

What does the Handbook say about who conducts youth interviews?  Let me give you some basic training -- if you are interviewing someone and serious sin is indicated, this is something that the Bishop should handle.  That is beyond you purview as a counselor and that is why you were not trained.  The bishop is the common judge and must handle all such matters.

We’re not talking about sin.  We’re talking about victims of abuse. 

[Bernard Gui]

15 minutes ago, juliann said:

That is horrible, Bernard. Horrible. I am so sorry.

 

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

The difference between the Church and the State is being able to compel others to be involved (as well as access to other law enforcement organizations) and having very significant consequences for lying.  This may have been demonstrated by Bishop confessing to BYU police while denying it to his local leaders.

In the case of the Church, to continue to lie even if he was found later was the best approach for Bishop as confessing to anything more than 'undisciplined thoughts' would result in discipline where adding the sin of lying to it now after years of deception wouldn't make much, if any difference imo,

In the case of the State/Police, lying to them now risked a penalty for obstruction of justice I am guessing even if they couldn't charge them for crimes past the statue of limitations.

While excommunication can be very traumatic, jail time and money penalties are a much more concrete, immediate threat.

On the other hand, there is always the Inquisition....no one ever suspects it. Like putting doctrinal, confessional, investigative, judicial, and punitive powers in the hands of a few religious folks. It’s worked before. My namesake was particularly adept. At least according to the book and movie. 😬

[Calm]

24 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I respect that you see them as different but I see no difference in how tithing dollars vs consecrated funds should be treated. 

The Church does, however.  Sometimes the rules the Church puts in place are more strict for nontithing dollars...for example fast offerings and humanitarian donations, iirc, tithing dollars are used to pay for overhead, transportation costs so all such donations can go to those in need.

Edited March 24, 2018 by Calm

[rockpond]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

The Church does, however.  Sometimes the rules the Church puts in place are more strict for nontithing dollars...for example fast offerings and humanitarian donations, iirc, tithing dollars are used to pay for overhead, transportation costs so all such donations can go to those in need.

To be fair, Calm, we don’t really know how the church uses it’s funds.  We haven’t had financial disclosure in decades. 

[Calm]

1 minute ago, rockpond said:

To be fair, Calm, we don’t really know how the church uses it’s funds.  We haven’t had financial disclosure in decades. 

They certainly could be lying every time they say these types of donations all go for what they are donated for.

[Thinking]

59 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Having been on the receiving end of serious false accusations of racism in which my identity went public, I am sensitive to the processes involved. In my case, the plaintiffs with several other families won a class action suit against the school district. They made tape recordings of their conversation with me regarding their situation with my consent. In my deposition, I was the one who brought up the existence of their tape because I knew it would exonerate me. As far as I know, the tape was never brought into evidence. My student teacher was in the room when the tape was made, but she was never deposed. The complainers won a substantial settlement, in the millions, while I was falsely accused of racism in the newspaper and the whole thing went into my personnel file. Hence, I’m not thoroughly convinced of the efficacy of the process.

Being a fellow educator, this is my worst fear. Sometimes after school there will be just one student who comes into my room to ask questions. My door is always propped open.

About 20 years ago a local baseball coach was accused of inappropriate sexual contact with a student. He was fired. Later the student recanted  - she said she was getting back at him for a grade. The damage was done to his reputation. He won a financial settlement against the school district for terminating him before conducting a proper investigation.

Unfortunately there have been too many false accusations, which make it difficult to believe the real victims.

[cdowis]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

LDS.org is down for maintenance so I can only pull this stuff off google:

"What a tremendous honor it was for the choir to be asked to represent the Church, the state of Utah, the United States, and even the power of humanity and what it can do,”"

"Ten brethren received “licenses,” which were small documents certifying they were authorized to represent the Church (see D&C 20:64–65)."

"And whom do these missionaries represent? First, they represent their parents, carrying the responsibility of keeping their good name unsullied. Second, they represent the Church"

etc...

Members are excommunicated in part so they can no longer represent the Church to others.

Let me restate == these individuals do not represent the church when they are committing heinous sins.  They represent the realm of Satan even when they have some piece of paper in their pocket.

I find it interesting that you were incapable of understanding that obvious point.  You just want to argue.
I have no interest in spoon feeding you == figure it out for yourself, etc.

poster removed

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, rockpond said:

So it is just your speculation that no tithing dollars were ever used to purchase property or businesses. 

And how was it claimed?  By the sacrifice of the saints in coming out to Utah.  That makes it consecrated. 

Nope. I just do not want to do research for you. If you want to believe the worst go nuts.

Okay, then everything is pretty much consecrated by your standards. Feel free to continue being offended as to where church funds go. I am sure you and your rage will be very happy together.

[Calm]

31 minutes ago, cdowis said:

Let me restate == these individuals do not represent the church when they are committing heinous sins.  They represent the realm of Satan even when they have some piece of paper in their pocket.

I find it interesting that you were incapable of understanding that obvious point.  You just want to argue.
I have no interest in spoon feeding you == figure it out for yourself, etc.

Oh please.  You are using "represent" in a different way than everyone else I remember using the term.

lds.org shows there is a wide range of usage on the official website, including referring to scripture.  Insisting your unusual usage must be the one everyone else follows when even the Church as a general rule does not is unreasonable.

Edited March 24, 2018 by Calm

[Calm]

Here is another one (site is back up):

“To perform fully our duty as a Home Teacher we should be continually aware of the attitudes, the activities and interests, the problems, the employment, the health, the happiness, the plans and purposes, the physical, temporal, and spiritual needs and circumstances of everyone—of every child, every youth, and every adult in the homes and families who have been placed in our trust and care as a bearer of the priesthood, and as a representative of the bishop” (priesthood home teaching seminar, 9 Aug. 1963, pp. 3, 4)."

To suggest that the home teacher is only representing the bishop when he is doing good, but as soon as he does bad he has no connection to his role of hometeacher even if he has been invited into the home to function as a home teacher and it is at that time he offends in some ways is ridiculous.  

From the description of the victim, he in his authority of MTC President pulled her out of class and into a counseling session, during which time he took her to his other "office" set aside for him as MTC President  on MTC property and molested her.

Edited March 24, 2018 by Calm

[juliann]

Just when you think this unbelievably stupid son can't possibly do anymore damage....http://www.standard.net/Education/2018/03/24/Joseph-Bishop-LDS-mission-training-president-MTC-faced-lawsuit-controversies-at-Weber-State-college-university.html

And this addresses the dementia:

Quote

 

Greg Bishop, the eldest of Bishop’s five sons, said his father denies the allegations. As for the tape, he believes his father was confused by the woman’s “forceful” accusations. 

“I would say he’s in pretty good shape for 85, mentally,” Greg Bishop said. “But his memory — he’ll tell the same story a bunch of times, or forget things from the past. And he gets easily confused.”

Greg Bishop said his father suffered a series of three heart attacks late last year, and the meeting with the woman took place within a week of him being released from the hospital.

“She said, ‘Actually, you did something that hurt me,’ and he immediately starts apologizing to her,” Greg Bishop said. “Keep in mind he almost met his maker the week before, so he was over-the-top apologetic.”

 

The son is so oblivious to what he discloses. When I put aside the tragic aspect of this, it is downright funny to see someone so oblivious that he thinks a need to be over the top apologetic after almost seeing your maker helps the case of a predator.

Not to be outdone by his repulsive victim blaming, he finishes with a flourish, "“When Dad talked about being a sex addict, it sounds to me like he was just being a male,” he said."

 

[Calm]

"Greg Bishop said he and the LDS Church did their own investigations of the woman’s claims and found that in the decades after leaving the Missionary Training Center, the woman went to police with several claims of sexual abuse, reporting strangers attacking her in parking lots and assaults by partners or acquaintences....

But he insists his father is being accused by a woman who has repeatedly leveled charges against men over the years."

Nothing said about them being false charges this time...but she is not to be believed because there were many and of course that just isn't reasonable.

Not a bad article though I am unfamiliar with the site:

"It’s not an unusual phenomenon. A little known fact is that being sexually assaulted puts you at a much higher risk of being assaulted again in the future, as does childhood sexual abuse.

Sometimes referred to as revictimization, it is not exclusive to sexual assault. Victims of domestic violence are more likely to undergo it a second time. Even robberies and burglaries seem to be self-propogating (and significantly so. Being robbed once places you at a nine times higher risk of being robbed again, and being burgled means you have four times more reason to lock up your house.)

Being sexually assaulted greatly increased the risk of future assaults, with one study purporting that being sexually assaulted once meant a woman was 35 times more likely than others to be revictimized.

“The percentage of women who were raped as children or adolescents and also raped as adults was more than two times higher than the percentage among women without an early rape history.”
– National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey, 2010, CDC

What contributes to this devastating, but common pattern?

There are several theories, and it varies from woman to woman. Women who were sexually abused as children have learned silence, and may be unable to enforce appropriate boundaries, given their childhood experiences. Some theorize that it is a way of attempting to master anxiety or trauma. Some suggest that traumatization may cause some to revert to familiar patterns, despite whatever pain it may cause. And some others suggest that women who have been assaulted early learn to associate sex with pain and trauma, and therefore are less likely to be able to distinguish between consent or coercion."

https://www.girlsglobe.org/2015/08/04/the-repetition-compulsion-why-rape-victims-are-more-likely-to-be-assaulted-again/

Edited March 25, 2018 by Calm

[juliann]

Bet the church is loving this one from their investigative pal, Greg, 

Quote

Greg Bishop said he and the LDS Church did their own investigations of the woman’s claims and found that in the decades after leaving the Missionary Training Center, the woman went to police with several claims of sexual abuse, reporting strangers attacking her in parking lots and assaults by partners or acquaintences.

 

[juliann]

Quote

“If it’s true she was abused from the time she was 4 until she was 14, she’s a victim in this, too,” he said. “But that doesn’t give her the right to go and seek her 15 minutes of fame by making these slanderous allegations against my dad. There’s no way for her to put this back in the box, the damage is done. There’s no way for Dad to get his reputation back.” 

I can't figure out if this guy is tone deaf or brain dead.

[Jeanne]

Just now, juliann said:

I can't figure out if this guy is tone deaf or brain dead.

This man needs a reality pill...and then take foot out of mouth!

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, juliann said:

Bet the church is loving this one from their investigative pal, Greg, 

 

Yeah, I thought that implication of a joint association was choice.

I can see him as his dad's lawyer insisting they share any findings with him and he may have willing turned stuff over to them since he appears to see his stuff as clinching the deal, since he appears to be sharing it with anyone who asks.  That does not mean they are one and the same.  It would be very, very foolish legally speaking to do so.

[juliann]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

Yeah, I thought that implication of a joint association was choice.

I can see him as his dad's lawyer insisting they share any findings with him and he may have willing turned stuff over to them since he appears to see his stuff as clinching the deal, since he appears to be sharing it with anyone who asks.  That does not mean they are one and the same.  It would be very, very foolish legally speaking to do so.

He makes it sound like they were sharing information, as in, we are all on the same team here. Not a good visual.

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, california boy said:

So do most posters believe that the revelation on gays was related as a revelation from a man with dementia?  

Can this be taken to another thread?

[Calm]

46 minutes ago, juliann said:

He makes it sound like they were sharing information, as in, we are all on the same team here. Not a good visual.

He does not appear to be a criminal lawyer.  This is from a page that has stuff on it so not going to link to, but will try and find another with the same info...add-on:  it turns out this is off his Facebook page which is personal, not business so not linking to it.

"General Counsel, Chief Compliance Officer & Corporate Secretary at Control4"

Control4 is apparently a electronic automation system company.

http://www.cloud9smart.com/control4-montage-deer-valley

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xaQ2kiDMXAo

 

Edited March 25, 2018 by Calm

[bluebell]

22 minutes ago, california boy said:

So do most posters believe that the revelation on gays was related as a revelation from a man with dementia?  

From how I’ve heard it described, it was revelation to the apostles as a group. 

[rockpond]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

They certainly could be lying every time they say these types of donations all go for what they are donated for.

They aren’t lying.  They clearly state that the funds can be used for anything that furthers the mission of the Church.  And they define what furthers the mission of the church. 

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, rockpond said:

They aren’t lying.  They clearly state that the funds can be used for anything that furthers the mission of the Church.  And they define what furthers the mission of the church. 

"While 100% of fast offerings and humanitarian donations go directly to those in need, the overhead and administrative costs associated with these programs—in addition to the resources needed to build storage facilities, house and deliver humanitarian aid supplies around the world, train volunteers and so on—are privately fronted by the Church."

one of many such comments I have seen over the years.  Are they lying?

https://give.lds.org/humanitarian-services/news-features/humanitarian-aid-and-welfare?cid=humanitarian&

[rockpond]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Nope. I just do not want to do research for you. If you want to believe the worst go nuts.

Okay, then everything is pretty much consecrated by your standards. Feel free to continue being offended as to where church funds go. I am sure you and your rage will be very happy together.

You don’t want to do the research for me?  It’s your claim.  I thought you must have some actual data to support it but I guess not. 

As for me, I certainly don’t believe the worst.  These are good men handling the church funds.  Good men, not perfect men.  And I am not offended and do not have any rage (nice ad hominem, by the way).

Finally, I do believe that everything the Church has is consecrated.  I don’t think anyone donated to the church and said:  “this is not tithes or offerings, I’d like you to use this for hush money to settle sexual abuse cases”. 

[rockpond]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

"While 100% of fast offerings and humanitarian donations go directly to those in need, the overhead and administrative costs associated with these programs—in addition to the resources needed to build storage facilities, house and deliver humanitarian aid supplies around the world, train volunteers and so on—are privately fronted by the Church."

one of many such comments I have seen over the years.  Are they lying?

https://give.lds.org/humanitarian-services/news-features/humanitarian-aid-and-welfare?cid=humanitarian&

I don’t think they are lying.  Nothing I have written here contradicts that statement. 

Edited March 25, 2018 by rockpond