Elder Uchtdorf's New Callings

[Hamba Tuhan]

8 hours ago, randy said:

I believe...that the Lord calls and the Lord releases. In my mind its that simple. But then again, I'm pretty simple minded.

I share your simplemindedness, randy.

But it appears that some in the Church have adopted wholesale the online ramblings of apostates about there being division amongst the apostles, with a conservative faction and a progressive faction. A number of these members, it would seem, no longer believe in God, no longer believe this is God's Church and/or no longer believe that God directs His apostles, and so they've filled this vacuum with fantasies that all seem to revolve around the 'progressive' faction somehow gaining the upper hand and boldly transforming the Church of Jesus Christ into a (to them) palatably progressive organisation.

For reasons I don't quite understand, Elder Uchtdorf has been held up as the leader of this progressive faction, and so not re-calling him into the First Presidency becomes a personal set-back to those who have pinned their hopes on certain things happening under his influence ... and is understood as a politically motivated act of 'demotion'.

What confuses me the most, however, is that when those of us who don't share these fanciful assumptions (and ofttimes based on extensive personal experience) point out that they're groundless wishful thinking, we're labelled rude and mean-spirited. Because we seem to live in a day where the nastiest thing a person can do is not validate someone else's enabling fictions.

Interesting times, indeed!

Edited January 24, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[Hamba Tuhan]

11 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I have heard apostles who are still alive testify they are real and do happen.

As have I. This seems to be another one of those things that finds its vitality in the wishful thinking of certain internet posters.

The 'simple' solution, of course, is to know these things for ourselves.

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I have heard apostles who are still alive testify they are real and do happen.

You do know that one of the hallmarks of the Restoration was to bring back angels and visions and our scriptures are full of them right? Apostles saying they are gone is basically admitting another apostasy.

Indeed. 

And to say that apostles don’t believe in divine manifestations anymore when the doctrinal structure of the Church is built on it is a scurrilous accusation. I’m still waiting for hope_for_things to respond to my CFR. 

[randy]

7 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I share your simplemindedness, randy.

But it appears that some in the Church have adopted wholesale the online ramblings of apostates about there being division amongst the apostles, with a conservative faction and a progressive faction. A number of these members, it would seem, no longer believe in God, no longer believe this is God's Church and/or no longer believe that God directs His apostles, and so they've filled this vacuum with fantasies that all seem to revolve around the 'progressive' faction somehow gaining the upper hand and boldly transforming the Church of Jesus Christ into a (to them) palatably progressive organisation.

For reasons I don't quite understand, Elder Uchtdorf has been held up as the leader of this progressive faction, and so not re-calling him into the First Presidency becomes a personal set-back to those who have pinned their hopes on certain things happening under his influence ... and is understood as a politically motivated act of 'demotion'.

What confuses me the most, however, is that when those of us who don't share these fanciful assumptions (and ofttimes based on extensive personal experience) point out that they're groundless wishful thinking, we're labelled rude and mean-spirited. Because we seem to live in a day where the nastiest thing a person can do is not validate someone else's enabling fictions.

Interesting times, indeed!

Boy howdy...I hear ya there!!!   I will say this about Elder Uchtdorf....he sure is a handsome rascal!  I love his accent...I love his talks...I love that he was a 747 Captain, Iam a former Air Traffic Controller...heck who knows...maybe we chatted a few times back in the day.  I believe he is a man of God, a Special Witness of Christ. I think I also can count myself among those who "connected" with him in a more personal way than others in the Q12/FP. I say yippee skippee for me!     He is a lot of wonderful things, as are all of the Q12 and FP.     I understand that we each identify with certain personality types etc, but all of this doesn't change the fact that the Lord calls, and the Lord releases. Last I heard..it was his Church.  I don't get on here all that much...it IS still his church isn't ? 

 

Edited January 24, 2018 by randy

[Hamba Tuhan]

23 minutes ago, randy said:

Last I heard..it was his Church.  I don't get on here all that much...it IS still his church isn't ? 

It is indeed ! Even when some would find it more convenient if it weren't ...

Edited January 24, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[Kenngo1969]

Randy:

ATCs rock!     Just sayin'.  Sorry for the irrelevant diversion.  (Oh, and ... welcome to the board. ) We now return you to your regularly-scheduled, on-topic programming.  (Elder Uchtdorf rocks, too.  Just sayin', again.)

-Ken

[Kenngo1969]

Do divine manifestations happen in the Church of Jesus Christ, especially in its upper echelons?  Why not?  That's what started the whole thing, after all.  But I also believe the Lord works by the principle of minimum "force" necessary: If it takes an angel, He sends an angel (with a drawn sword, if necessary ).  But He's not going to send an angel if an angel isn't necessary to do the job.  

Quote

 

1 Kings 19, KJV

11 And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the Lord. And, behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the Lord; but the Lord was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the Lord was not in the earthquake:

12 And after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.

 

 

[Hamba Tuhan]

Duplicate.
 

Edited January 24, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[randy]

27 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Do divine manifestations happen in the Church of Jesus Christ, especially in its upper echelons?  Why not?  That's what started the whole thing, after all.  But I also believe the Lord works by the principle of minimum "force" necessary: If it takes an angel, He sends an angel (with a drawn sword, if necessary ).  But He's not going to send an angel if an angel isn't necessary to do the job.  

 

Ken,  I certainly believe they do!  But then again, Iam one of those LDS who believe in revelation, Angels, Prophets and Apostles...you know...all that cool stuff that the Restored Gospel is all about!  Maybe I'm just to "old school"!  But then again, I am old......

[randy]

39 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

It is indeed ! Even when some would find it more convenient if it weren't ...

Whooo Whooo!!!  whew!  That is a relief!!  A guy doesn't visit a discussion board for a while....and BOOM..."all truth is trying to be turned upside down and sideways!"    I served with a really cool Bishop way back when....and we were talking about missionary work and he shared with me his approach.  He said "ya know Johnson...used to be when I discussed the gospel with non-members and they didn't choose to accept it, I would get my feelings hurt.  Now....when I share the gospel and they choose not to accept the invitation...I just say to myself...NEXT"!     I loved that....

[rongo]

11 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

CFR that General Authorities don’t believe in divine manifestations anymore. And let’s have direct quotes in context, not just vague allusions. 

Well, a reverse CFR on this would result in the same silence, right? That is, direct quotes in context that GAs believe in divine manifestations in our day (not back in the 1820s to 1890s --- that's a given), not just feelings, promptings, or inspiration. 

Talk of this (direct talk) is avoided, and has been for some time. This is why this impression isn't just vague allusions for many. They honestly wonder to what extent the Brethren believe in the ministering of angels, etc. today, when most talk about revelation is of "counseling with councils," feelings, impressions, etc. 

I've shared one that fascinates (and delights) me to this day: Elder Wirthlin told the Germany Hamburg Mission on October 27, 1994 that John the Revelator played a key role in the fall of Communism and the opening up of Russia and Eastern Europe for the preaching of the gospel and the establishing of the Church. I was fresh out of the MTC, and it was the week I arrived on my mission. I wanted to know more details, but he didn't elaborate. That was over 20 years ago, though, and I would be very interested in any quotes anyone can come up with that are more recent than that with direct quotes about concrete divine manifestations. 

Edited January 24, 2018 by rongo

[hope_for_things]

12 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

CFR that General Authorities don’t believe in divine manifestations anymore. And let’s have direct quotes in context, not just vague allusions. 

Here are the two specific references I was thinking of.  The somewhat infamous Boise rescue from 2015, where Elder Oaks and Richard Turley conducted a fireside for the purposes of trying to control the influence of the Denver Snuffer movement in the Boise area.  It was recorded by someone, and I was able to find a transcript that someone else made online.  This portion happened 1hr and 4 mins into the meeting, and I know this has been discussed before on this message board, but here it is again.  

Turley says in a question and answer kind of format the following (an important question in the context of pushing back against the Snuffer followers who are promoting that individuals can have a personal experience with Jesus)

Quote

Another claim that we sometimes hear is that current apostles have no right to run the affairs of the church since they do not meet the New Testament standard of apostles because they do not testify of having seen Christ.

Oaks then replies with the following:

Quote

The first answer to this claim is that modern apostles are called to be witnesses of the name of Christ in all the world, Doctrine and Covenants 107:23. This is not to witness of a personal manifestation. To witness of the name is to witness of the plan, the work, or mission such as the atonement and the authority or priesthood of the Lord Jesus Christ, which an apostle who holds the keys is uniquely responsible to do. 
Of course apostles are also witnesses of Christ just like all members of the Church who have the gift of the Holy Ghost. This is because the mission of the Holy Ghost is to witness of the Father and the Son. In addition, while some early apostles and other members of the church have had the sublime spiritual experience of seeing the Savior and some have made a public record of this, in the circumstances of today we are counseled not to speak of our most sacred spiritual experiences, otherwise with modern technology that can broadcast something all over the world, a remark made in a sacred and a private setting can be said abroad in violation of the Savior's commandment not to cast our pearls before swine.

https://zeios.blob.core.windows.net/jtz-article-images/Boise Rescue-Transcript.docx

Elder Oaks is very careful with his language from my experience, and these statements seem to be clearly distancing the apostle experience from a personal manifestation of Jesus type experience to something much less miraculous sounding and equating it with the kind of Holy Ghost experiences that are generally promoted, the feeling peace in your heart type of thing.  

The second item I couldn't find a transcript for, but its from the November 2017 face to face discussion with Elder Ballard and Elder Oaks.  The first question from a participant was at the 11 minute mark, and person asks, and I paraphrase, how can I truly come to know the truth of what I've been taught and gain a testimony, this person prays for answers and confirmation from the spirit, but wants to know how to distinguish personal feelings from the influence of the Holy Ghost.  

The answer from Elder Ballard who speaks second is quite interesting, he talks about going to a quiet place to pray and ponder, and I'll quote the relevant section:

Quote

Then in those quiet moments, you don't hear voices, you're not going to have a vision, that's very unusual, but really the things you feel within your heart are the way Heavenly Father ultimately answers prayers.  What your feelings are is the process of conversion.  

https://www.lds.org/media-library/video/2017-10-2000-ysa-face-to-face-with-elder-oaks-and-elder-ballard?lang=eng

So hearing voices and having visions is not going to happen because they are very unusual, and feelings is how Heavenly Father ultimately answers prayers and converts people.  

There are other examples further back in history that I also alluded to where church leaders have made statements to lower expectations for visionary type experiences.  But I wanted to bring up two relevant and recent examples to answer your CFR.  

[hope_for_things]

12 hours ago, randy said:

Hello All,  I have been fascinated with this thread.  I'm 60 yrs old, been a member since "65" and have served in a few Bishoprics over the years.  I gotta tell ya, I really didn't know there were "demotions" in the church, heck...I didn't even really  know it was POSSIBLE to be demoted in the Church.  Honestly...how does one become demoted in the Church?  How can simply receiving another calling or area of responsibility and stewardship be seen or construed as being demoted..as if we're "hired and fired"?  I'm truly trying to understand this point of view.  I was always taught, and I believe...that the Lord calls and the Lord releases.  In my mind its that simple. But then again, I'm pretty simple minded.  I am trying to also understand why some in the church would be losing any sleep over this, or suffering angsnt over it when Elder Uchtdorf obviously is not.  I don't consider myself sensitive over this, I am not dismissing other's feelings on it,  just trying hard to understand why it really matters at all.

I am reminded of Elder Anderson's talk "It's true isn't? What else matters?"  At the end of the day, that pretty well sums up my whole approach and attitude towards the church.  But again....simple minded I am.

 

I guess there are two ways of thinking of this.  One is to compare the positions of authority within the church to other organizations.  We know the President of the USA is a position that holds more clout than the position of a member of the house of representatives, and I'm sure you would agree.  How about a large business organization, like Google for example, the CEO or CFO is a higher position of authority than a Director or VP in the hierarchy.  It seems clear to me that from an influence and authority perspective that a member of the first presidency has more influence and authority than a member of the quorum of the twelve.  

Now the second way of thinking of this is the theological approach to which callings within the church are considered by God to be the most worth while and important for a person's individual salvation.  I'm very familiar that theologically speaking no calling is elevated above another calling when it comes to this importance.  Emphasis is made to honor all callings as equally efficacious in helping a person to progress on their spiritual path.  I like this theology, and from this perspective no-one can be demoted, because all callings are equal when measuring them this way.  

Hopefully that helps for you to understand how I'm thinking a little.  Thanks

[hope_for_things]

11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I have heard apostles who are still alive testify they are real and do happen.

You do know that one of the hallmarks of the Restoration was to bring back angels and visions and our scriptures are full of them right? Apostles saying they are gone is basically admitting another apostasy.

Heber J. Grant said this in 1926

Quote

I know of no instance where the Lord has appeared to an individual since His appearance to the Prophet Joseph Smith.

In fairness he made another statement later in his life that contradicted this earlier statement somewhat.    

If you haven't read any of the Reed Smoot hearing before, some of the comments of Joseph F. Smith were quite interesting on this subject of revelation.  Here are a few parts that seem relevant. 

Quote

Chairman: You have revelations, have you not?
Smith: I have never pretended to nor do I profess to have received revelations.  I never said I had a revelation except so far as God has shown me that so-called Mormonism is God’s divine truth; that is all.
Chairman: You say that was shown to you by God?
Smith: By inspiration.
Chairman: How by inspiration; does it come in the shape of a vision?
Smith: “The things of God knoweth no man but the spirit of God;” and I cannot tell you any more than that I received that knowledge and that testimony by the spirit of God.
Tayler: You do not mean that you reached it by any process of reasoning or by any other method by which you reach other conclusions in your mind, do you?
Smith: Well, I have reached principles; that is, I have been confirmed in my acceptance and knowledge of principles that have been revealed to me, shown to me, on which I was ignorant before, by reason and fact.

Worthington: What was the last revelation that came to the church from the one authorized to give it as the law of the church?
Smith: Well, according to my best recollection, it must have been about 1882.  The purport of the revelation was calling to the apostolate or apostleship two men, who are named in the revelation.
Worthington: Who was the president through whom that revelation came?
Smith: President John Taylor.
Worthington: You say that was the last one?
Smith: I do not now recall any since then except the manifesto.
Worthington: Except the manifesto?
Smith: Yes, except the manifesto.
Worthington: Then do I understand you to say the only revelation that has come to the church in the last twenty years is the one that says polygamy shall stop?
Smith: Since 1882?
Worthington: Yes, since 1882 – twenty-one years.
Smith:  Yes, sir; I think it is

 

[The Nehor]

21 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Here are the two specific references I was thinking of.  The somewhat infamous Boise rescue from 2015, where Elder Oaks and Richard Turley conducted a fireside for the purposes of trying to control the influence of the Denver Snuffer movement in the Boise area.  It was recorded by someone, and I was able to find a transcript that someone else made online.  This portion happened 1hr and 4 mins into the meeting, and I know this has been discussed before on this message board, but here it is again.  

Turley says in a question and answer kind of format the following (an important question in the context of pushing back against the Snuffer followers who are promoting that individuals can have a personal experience with Jesus)

Oaks then replies with the following:

https://zeios.blob.core.windows.net/jtz-article-images/Boise Rescue-Transcript.docx

Elder Oaks is very careful with his language from my experience, and these statements seem to be clearly distancing the apostle experience from a personal manifestation of Jesus type experience to something much less miraculous sounding and equating it with the kind of Holy Ghost experiences that are generally promoted, the feeling peace in your heart type of thing.  

The second item I couldn't find a transcript for, but its from the November 2017 face to face discussion with Elder Ballard and Elder Oaks.  The first question from a participant was at the 11 minute mark, and person asks, and I paraphrase, how can I truly come to know the truth of what I've been taught and gain a testimony, this person prays for answers and confirmation from the spirit, but wants to know how to distinguish personal feelings from the influence of the Holy Ghost.  

The answer from Elder Ballard who speaks second is quite interesting, he talks about going to a quiet place to pray and ponder, and I'll quote the relevant section:

https://www.lds.org/media-library/video/2017-10-2000-ysa-face-to-face-with-elder-oaks-and-elder-ballard?lang=eng

So hearing voices and having visions is not going to happen because they are very unusual, and feelings is how Heavenly Father ultimately answers prayers and converts people.  

There are other examples further back in history that I also alluded to where church leaders have made statements to lower expectations for visionary type experiences.  But I wanted to bring up two relevant and recent examples to answer your CFR.  

So because an apostle says they are not specifically called to witness physical manifestations (and they generally are not) you assume they mean they do not happen anymore and the Brethren do not believe they happen anymore?

Please never analyze anything I say and try to discern what I mean. I suspect you are not very good at it.

[hope_for_things]

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

So because an apostle says they are not specifically called to witness physical manifestations (and they generally are not) you assume they mean they do not happen anymore and the Brethren do not believe they happen anymore?

Please never analyze anything I say and try to discern what I mean. I suspect you are not very good at it.

Some members believe each and every apostle has a special interview with Jesus as part of their calling, I've heard it discussed in church meetings and in conversations with other members many times over the course of my life.  Elder Oaks statement directly contradicts this assertion.  He's making himself clear to the audience he's speaking to which is an audience where they are going to specifically address the Denver Snuffer movement, which if you are at all familiar with they make claims about having personal visions/visitations of Jesus.  

I tried to explain a little of this background in my post, the context of those words he carefully chose is critical to understanding the language of Elder Oak's statement.   

[randy]

21 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I guess there are two ways of thinking of this.  One is to compare the positions of authority within the church to other organizations.  We know the President of the USA is a position that holds more clout than the position of a member of the house of representatives, and I'm sure you would agree.  How about a large business organization, like Google for example, the CEO or CFO is a higher position of authority than a Director or VP in the hierarchy.  It seems clear to me that from an influence and authority perspective that a member of the first presidency has more influence and authority than a member of the quorum of the twelve.  

Now the second way of thinking of this is the theological approach to which callings within the church are considered by God to be the most worth while and important for a person's individual salvation.  I'm very familiar that theologically speaking no calling is elevated above another calling when it comes to this importance.  Emphasis is made to honor all callings as equally efficacious in helping a person to progress on their spiritual path.  I like this theology, and from this perspective no-one can be demoted, because all callings are equal when measuring them this way.  

Hopefully that helps for you to understand how I'm thinking a little.  Thanks

Fair enough.  Since I believe the Lord is at the helm of his church, I can X option 1 off the list.   Option 2 however, is the one I adhere to, and if I am understanding you correctly in the second paragraph...I believe we're in agreement.  I appreciate the clarification.

[hope_for_things]

3 minutes ago, randy said:

Fair enough.  Since I believe the Lord is at the helm of his church, I can X option 1 off the list.   Option 2 however, is the one I adhere to, and if I am understanding you correctly in the second paragraph...I believe we're in agreement.  I appreciate the clarification.

I think both can be relevant at the same time.  If you believe that God is in charge, that doesn't mean God isn't still working through humans.  Think of Moses or examples in the scriptures of kings that are called by God or demoted from those callings for mistakes they make.  I don't see a conflict with my characterization of demotion.  

[rongo]

51 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

So because an apostle says they are not specifically called to witness physical manifestations (and they generally are not) you assume they mean they do not happen anymore and the Brethren do not believe they happen anymore?

Please never analyze anything I say and try to discern what I mean. I suspect you are not very good at it.

I am genuinely curious as to whether anyone can provide any specific, direct GA quotes from the last 20 years that address physical manifestations (angels or God) in modern times (i.e., not 1820-1890) in any way. I am not aware of any, other than the one from Elder Wirthlin I personally heard. They are not only extremely rare, it is obvious that there has been a shift away from this towards revelation always being via impressions, "councils," etc. 

I agree with Elder Ballard and President Oaks that such are not commonplace, but my faith and testimony is that they still happen and are possible. I think it largely depends on the expectations and faith of people, though, and this can include general authorities. That is, it is possible that they drift as a whole towards more corporate forms of revelation that are more impression-oriented. You get what you look for. If you don't look for or expect visitations, they aren't going to happen for you.

Edited January 24, 2018 by rongo

[The Nehor]

40 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Some members believe each and every apostle has a special interview with Jesus as part of their calling, I've heard it discussed in church meetings and in conversations with other members many times over the course of my life.  Elder Oaks statement directly contradicts this assertion.  He's making himself clear to the audience he's speaking to which is an audience where they are going to specifically address the Denver Snuffer movement, which if you are at all familiar with they make claims about having personal visions/visitations of Jesus.  

I tried to explain a little of this background in my post, the context of those words he carefully chose is critical to understanding the language of Elder Oak's statement.   

I am old school. I do not believe that opportunity is limited to apostles. Do all apostles receive such an experience? Not sure. Do some? Definitely. Are they going to talk about this and get into a pissing match over who claims better revelatory experiences with those idiot Snufferites? Hell no. Emphasizing those kinds of experiences would be dangerous when trying to deal with heretics who crave them. They might come back but then you end up with nuts in Church Teaching the secret path to the Second Comforter. They keep these experiences low key amongst the faithless for good reason.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

Well, a reverse CFR on this would result in the same silence, right? That is, direct quotes in context that GAs believe in divine manifestations in our day (not back in the 1820s to 1890s --- that's a given), not just feelings, promptings, or inspiration. 

Talk of this (direct talk) is avoided, and has been for some time. This is why this impression isn't just vague allusions for many. They honestly wonder to what extent the Brethren believe in the ministering of angels, etc. today, when most talk about revelation is of "counseling with councils," feelings, impressions, etc. 

I've shared one that fascinates (and delights) me to this day: Elder Wirthlin told the Germany Hamburg Mission on October 27, 1994 that John the Revelator played a key role in the fall of Communism and the opening up of Russia and Eastern Europe for the preaching of the gospel and the establishing of the Church. I was fresh out of the MTC, and it was the week I arrived on my mission. I wanted to know more details, but he didn't elaborate. That was over 20 years ago, though, and I would be very interested in any quotes anyone can come up with that are more recent than that with direct quotes about concrete divine manifestations. 

 

I remind you of what it was that hope_for_things said:
 

Quote

 

I have heard enough quotes from church leaders that lead me to believe that many of the apostles don't believe in these kind of manifestations anymore.

 

He made this remark in the context of a post in which he declared his unbelief "in literal visits by angels or spirits."

So a reasonable interpretation of his remark is that he is saying that "many of the apostles" no longer believe "in these kind of manifestations" at all, either now or in the past. If that's not what he meant, he should clarify.

[clarkgoble]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

I am genuinely curious as to whether anyone can provide any specific, direct GA quotes from the last 20 years that address physical manifestations (angels or God) in modern times (i.e., not 1820-1890) in any way. I am not aware of any, other than the one from Elder Wirthlin I personally heard. They are not only extremely rare, it is obvious that there has been a shift away from this towards revelation always being via impressions, "councils," etc. 

From what I can tell they're not at all uncommon although not everyone has them. But they won't talk about them in places where it ends up on the internet. (I've heard that directly said) 

While older than 20 years, the usual go to quote for these sorts of things is Elder Packer's. "Revelation continues with us today. The promptings of the Spirit, the dreams, and the visions and the visitations, and the ministering of angels all are with us now. And the still, small voice of the Holy Ghost “is a lamp unto [our] feet, and a light unto [our] path.” (Ps. 119:105.) Of that I bear witness, in the name of Jesus Christ, amen." I've not read the whole thread so I don't know if that was quoted already.

If you search for ministering of angels you'll find lots of talks discussing that as not only as something that can happen now but frequently something we should be aware of. i.e. "I believe we need to speak of and believe in and bear testimony to the ministry of angels more than we sometimes do. They constitute one of God’s great methods of witnessing through the veil, and no document in all this world teaches that principle so clearly and so powerfully and so often as does the Book of Mormon." (Holland, "A Standard Unto My People")

Elder Oaks also taught this in "Teaching and Learning by the Spirit." "Visions do happen. Voices are heard from beyond the veil. I know this. But these experiences are exceptional. And those who have these great and exceptional experiences rarely speak of them publicly because we are instructed not to do so (see D&C 63:64) and because we understand that the channels of revelation will be closed if we show these things before the world." (This whole talk is exceptional and worth reading relative to this discussion - even though the whole Snuffer apostasy hadn't happened yet it reads as if it were commenting on those current events)

Many authorities will allude to these sorts of events, but rarely in public settings and usually with a caution not to share them too much. As I said I've heard concerns about statements appearing on the internet enough to think that is a broad worry among the brethren. However if you go to smaller settings regularly you'll also start hearing them. (I'll confess that with lots of rambunctious rowdy kids I rarely get to go anymore to things like the Saturday evening Stake Conference sessions with Apostles or similar venues)

Edited January 24, 2018 by clarkgoble

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

Here are the two specific references I was thinking of.  The somewhat infamous Boise rescue from 2015, where Elder Oaks and Richard Turley conducted a fireside for the purposes of trying to control the influence of the Denver Snuffer movement in the Boise area.  It was recorded by someone, and I was able to find a transcript that someone else made online.  This portion happened 1hr and 4 mins into the meeting, and I know this has been discussed before on this message board, but here it is again.  

Turley says in a question and answer kind of format the following (an important question in the context of pushing back against the Snuffer followers who are promoting that individuals can have a personal experience with Jesus)

Oaks then replies with the following:

https://zeios.blob.core.windows.net/jtz-article-images/Boise Rescue-Transcript.docx

Elder Oaks is very careful with his language from my experience, and these statements seem to be clearly distancing the apostle experience from a personal manifestation of Jesus type experience to something much less miraculous sounding and equating it with the kind of Holy Ghost experiences that are generally promoted, the feeling peace in your heart type of thing.  

The second item I couldn't find a transcript for, but its from the November 2017 face to face discussion with Elder Ballard and Elder Oaks.  The first question from a participant was at the 11 minute mark, and person asks, and I paraphrase, how can I truly come to know the truth of what I've been taught and gain a testimony, this person prays for answers and confirmation from the spirit, but wants to know how to distinguish personal feelings from the influence of the Holy Ghost.  

The answer from Elder Ballard who speaks second is quite interesting, he talks about going to a quiet place to pray and ponder, and I'll quote the relevant section:

https://www.lds.org/media-library/video/2017-10-2000-ysa-face-to-face-with-elder-oaks-and-elder-ballard?lang=eng

So hearing voices and having visions is not going to happen because they are very unusual, and feelings is how Heavenly Father ultimately answers prayers and converts people.  

There are other examples further back in history that I also alluded to where church leaders have made statements to lower expectations for visionary type experiences.  But I wanted to bring up two relevant and recent examples to answer your CFR.  

The above does not sustain your remark that "many of the apostles don't believe in these kind of manifestations anymore."

Even if you are referring to the modern day as opposed to in the past (which is not clear from your wording) what you have cited here is not probative.

In the first instance, Elder Oaks is clarifying what is meant by the doctrine that apostles are personal witnesses of the name of Christ in all the world. Contrary to your assertion, he does not "distance" the apostles or anyone else from receiving divine manifestations, either today or in the past. He certainly doesn't say he no longer believes in such manifestations, as you asserted.

In the second instance, Elder Ballard is speaking off the cuff in a worldwide telecast to young adult members of the Church, encouraging them to go to quiet places to ponder and to pray and to listen for answers. He reminds them that miraculous or startling events such as personal visitations or the hearing of voices are unusual (which they are) but he certainly doesn't rule them out. Again, nothing here can reasonably be construed to mean that Elder Oaks "doesn't believe in these kind of manifestations anymore."

 

[Guest]

On January 22, 2018 at 5:28 PM, hope_for_things said:

He was demoted in my opinion, but honestly I don't know how to rate and rank these different committee assignments and compare them to a position in the FP.  Do you have a system of some kind to compare the influence of these positions?  

My issue with calling or thinking of this as a demotion is based on having worked as a High Priest Group Leader, and in a Bishopric. When I went from being a High Priest Group leader to a member of my Bishopric, was neither a promotion or a demotion. By far the easiest was being in the Bishopric, as I never worked harder than being HPGL. The day I was called to serve in the Bishopric, a member of my group stood up and walked out of Sacrament. He did this not because I was being called, he did so because he felt underutilized, and because he view callings within the Church as vertical and not lateral. His pride cased him to leave the Church for almost ten years.

Every member of the First Quorum of the Seventy (if they live to be 70), retire. 

All Regional General Authorities, or at some point released, and then move by into the general membership, thankfully able to sit with their families again.

All Stake Presidents are released where they too can return to general membership, and enjoy all meetings with their wives by their sides.

All Bishops and members of the Bishopric are released to return to general membership, and sit with their wives and children again. 

None of the examples I gave are (once released) are not demotions. 

Such reassignments from the First Presidency, back to the Quorum of the Twelve, are not uncommon. In fact the Church (as far as earthly callings) Leadership, is the ruling body of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve. Every decision made by the Fiirst Presidency (other than speaking assignments) are made in council, of all 15 Apostles, or less when there is a vacancy. 

It is hard at times to see all things from God's perspective, because we are often looking through our natural eyes. This amazing Apostle is well suited for these responsibilities, and we will still hear from him every General Conference for the rest of his life. He may well one day be the President of the Church. He has gone nowhere, in that I find great comfort and continuity. 

On a personal note, after 8 straight years in leadership positions, becoming just a Sunday School teacher, sitting next to my wife every Sunday, was a very joyous experience and day.  

[clarkgoble]

2 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Elder Oaks is very careful with his language from my experience, and these statements seem to be clearly distancing the apostle experience from a personal manifestation of Jesus type experience to something much less miraculous sounding and equating it with the kind of Holy Ghost experiences that are generally promoted, the feeling peace in your heart type of thing.

I don't think that says how you are using it. Note that the context is an apostate movement seeking such things. He just says that you don't need that to be an apostle. (Which seems abundantly clear) However it just doesn't say he never had such experiences. Indeed his comments showing concern about the internet can easily be read as his alluding to having had such an experience but being under command not to share it. Which would of course line up perfectly with Alma 12:9.

3 hours ago, rongo said:

Well, a reverse CFR on this would result in the same silence, right? That is, direct quotes in context that GAs believe in divine manifestations in our day (not back in the 1820s to 1890s --- that's a given), not just feelings, promptings, or inspiration. 

An other example I thought of was this one by Kimball. 

"“I know that God lives. I know that Jesus Christ lives,” said John Taylor my predecessor, “for I have seen him.” I bear this testimony to you brethren in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen." (Kimball, "Strengthening the Family") While Kimball got the quote wrong (it was George Canon) clearly he's using that to share his own experience. That's pretty unusual in Conference.

 

Edited January 24, 2018 by clarkgoble