First Vision Video

[bsjkki]

So I ran across this First Vision video produced for the Church's History Museum. I was looking for a first vision movie to play in Primary. I did not choose this one. I liked how it discusses the different accounts but the whole tone of this production is more somber and the feeling of being overwhelmed by Satan, was too scary for kids. I hope they make a video of the first vision that mentions the other accounts but that is a little happier in tone. https://www.lds.org/media-library/video/2017-01-0100-ask-of-god-joseph-smiths-first-vision?lang=eng

Edited January 1, 2018 by bsjkki

[bluebell]

It's pretty impressive to watch it at theater in the church history museum, you feel like you're in the grove.  I can see though why it might not be the best option for kids.

[Robert F. Smith]

NIcely done, although I might have done it differently.  The Satanic prelim was too tame, though essential.  The actor playing Joseph was too well dressed, and did not look young enough.  The axe in that stump was absurd.  No one would leave an axe out like that in the middle of the forest.  Also, this was a known Smith family place of prayer, and should have looked the part.

[ksfisher]

20 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The axe in that stump was absurd.  No one would leave an axe out like that in the middle of the forest.  

1843 
“I immediately went out into the woods where my father had a clearing, and went to the stump where I had stuck my axe when I had quit work, and I kneeled down, and prayed, saying, O Lord, what Church shall I join?”

http://www.eldenwatson.net/harmony.htm#24

http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/interview-21-august-1843-extract/1

 

Edited January 1, 2018 by ksfisher

[bsjkki]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

It's pretty impressive to watch it at theater in the church history museum, you feel like you're in the grove.  I can see though why it might not be the best option for kids.

I will have to watch it in the theater. I would love to visit the museum...maybe next trip to the “motherland.”

[ksfisher]

20 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 this was a known Smith family place of prayer, and should have looked the part.

CFR please.  Not doubting you, but I would like to see the reference on this. 

[Robert F. Smith]

11 hours ago, ksfisher said:

1843 
“I immediately went out into the woods where my father had a clearing, and went to the stump where I had stuck my axe when I had quit work, and I kneeled down, and prayed, saying, O Lord, what Church shall I join?”

http://www.eldenwatson.net/harmony.htm#24

http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/interview-21-august-1843-extract/1 .

Thanks.  I stand corrected.  I would have liked a nicer clearing, without all the leaves suggesting Fall -- the Vision took place in the Spring.  Someone needs to sit down and write a meaningful, systematic script.

Quote

What was the Sacred Grove? Most people know that this was the place behind the farm house [the log cabin] where in the spring of 1820, young Joseph went to pray after reading James 1:5, “If any of you lack wisdom let him ask of God.” .................. it was a grove of 750 to a 1,000 maple trees that was purposely not cut down and cleared as had been the rest of their farmland. These maples were used for the harvesting of maple sap that was boiled down by the Smith family into maple sugar. Blocks of maple sugar were used like money on the expanding frontiers of a young America. The Prophet’s mother reported that the family harvested an average of “one thousand pounds” of maple sugar a year.  John Lund, https://www.funforlesstours.com/articles/church-history-palmyra/ .

 

Edited January 1, 2018 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

10 hours ago, ksfisher said:

CFR please.  Not doubting you, but I would like to see the reference on this. 

Cannot find a reference in Lucy Mack Smith, or other source or commentary (R. Bushman, etc.), so maybe I am mistaken.

[ksfisher]

4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Cannot find a reference in Lucy Mack Smith, or other source or commentary (R. Bushman, etc.), so maybe I am mistaken.

I’ve never heard of the grove being used by other Smith family members for prayer.  It would be interesting if it was.  If you run into the reference please post it.

[Robert F. Smith]

23 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

I’ve never heard of the grove being used by other Smith family members for prayer.  It would be interesting if it was.  If you run into the reference please post it.

I certainly will.  It has been some years since I heard that claim, and did not make a note of it at the time.

[longview]

6 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I would have liked a nicer clearing, without all the leaves suggesting Fall -- the Vision took place in the Spring.

Not all leaves decompose thoroughly during subsequent winter.  There could have been clumps of biomass here and there "early in the spring of 1820".  Around my house (Denver) I can see leafs that are black and mouldering.  Some that are still brown and dry (crispy).

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, longview said:

Not all leaves decompose thoroughly during subsequent winter.  There could have been clumps of biomass here and there "early in the spring of 1820".  Around my house (Denver) I can see leafs that are black and mouldering.  Some that are still brown and dry (crispy).

Sounds good, but I think we expect a clearing of some meaningful sort.

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Sounds good, but I think we expect a clearing of some meaningful sort.

I expected that myself when I visited there but really it was just a huge and rather dense woods or so it appeared to me. Of course those things can change considerably in two hundred years.

[Benjamin Seeker]

17 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Cannot find a reference in Lucy Mack Smith, or other source or commentary (R. Bushman, etc.), so maybe I am mistaken.

I read the same thing in Lucy Mack when she talks about the 8 witnesses. They go to the family prayer spot out in the woods and await the delivery of the plates by an ancient Nephite.

[hope_for_things]

On 12/31/2017 at 4:35 PM, bsjkki said:

So I ran across this First Vision video produced for the Church's History Museum. I was looking for a first vision movie to play in Primary. I did not choose this one. I liked how it discusses the different accounts but the whole tone of this production is more somber and the feeling of being overwhelmed by Satan, was too scary for kids. I hope they make a video of the first vision that mentions the other accounts but that is a little happier in tone. https://www.lds.org/media-library/video/2017-01-0100-ask-of-god-joseph-smiths-first-vision?lang=eng

Perhaps a video of the 1832 account would be best.  They could also portray this more as a vision than as a visitation, by using some dreamlike elements in the production.  Joseph had an ecstatic experience of some kind and it was personally very meaningful to him.  You too can have meaningful peak experiences in your life.  This is the core message that could be communicated and applied to all Mormons and resonate in a 21st century spirituality seeking context.  

Instead what do we get out of the modern Mormon First Vision video portrayals?   Joseph has a literal visitation of the Father and the Son, not so much a vision or dream like experience, but something more tangible and concrete.   The current video presentation is used to give legitimacy to the whole Mormon church.  Its not merely a personal experience for which Joseph is gaining motivation for living his religious life.  Instead it has been transformed into an experience that is wielded as evidence of institutional power.   Individuals aren't encouraged to approach God in prayer to replicate the experience Joseph had, they know that they can never experience what Joseph did, because his experience was unique and proof of the founding of a religious institution.   Yes, God answers prayers, but the way God answered Joseph was unique and tangible and not to be expected for an average person, this is the message.  

In its effort to promote the authority of Mormonism, the institution has subverted the core message of personal mystical visionary prayers of redemption (a common experience in Joseph's time), and has transformed this message into a proof-text for promoting exclusivity. 

Edited January 2, 2018 by hope_for_things

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

In its effort to promote the authority of Mormonism, the institution has subverted the core message of a personal mystical visionary prayers of redemption (a common experience in Joseph's time), and has transformed this message into a proof-text for promoting exclusivity. 

Wow, a church that believes it is founded by God putting forth effort to convince people that it's founded by God.  Oh the horror!    

Seriously though, it would be very odd if the church didn't promote it's authority as God's church.  It wouldn't make any sense and it wouldn't be logical or reasonable for the church not to do that.

And I disagree that the church teaches that members cannot see Christ.  We are taught in our scriptures and in lessons that we can see Him.  The church does not conflate visitation with Christ with 'founding a religious institution.' You can have one without the other.

[hope_for_things]

10 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Wow, a church that believes it is founded by God putting forth effort to convince people that it's founded by God.  Oh the horror!    

Seriously though, it would be very odd if the church didn't promote it's authority as God's church.  It wouldn't make any sense and it wouldn't be logical or reasonable for the church not to do that.

And I disagree that the church teaches that members cannot see Christ.  We are taught in our scriptures and in lessons that we can see Him.  The church does not conflate visitation with Christ with 'founding a religious institution.' You can have one without the other.

Historically in the early church the First Vision was not used as a story to promote authority in the way its being used today.  It wasn't part of the missionary messages, it wasn't described in terms of a tangible visitation in any of the multitude of versions we have, and it wasn't used as proof that the church was founded by God.  

The church has many other stories it has used to promote authority claims.  Personally I don't find the authority message to be that important anyway, but that's for another conversation perhaps.  

The people promoting visitations of Jesus today are being pushed out of correlated Mormonism.  They are being told this is deep doctrine and shouldn't be preached, the whole Snufferite movement is evidence of this. 

[bluebell]

24 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Historically in the early church the First Vision was not used as a story to promote authority in the way its being used today.  It wasn't part of the missionary messages, it wasn't described in terms of a tangible visitation in any of the multitude of versions we have, and it wasn't used as proof that the church was founded by God.  

I know, but I don't understand why that is significant at all.  Our understanding of the gospel and how best to help others receive a testimony of it is constantly growing and changing.  When I was serving my mission we used genealogy and the 'have you ever wondered why Mormons are called Mormons?' question to help people become converted.  That doesn't mean that focusing on different things is wrong though.

Quote

The people promoting visitations of Jesus today are being pushed out of correlated Mormonism.  They are being told this is deep doctrine and shouldn't be preached, the whole Snufferite movement is evidence of this. 

Those people are not just promoting visitations of Jesus though, and it's the other things they are promoting that are getting them pushed out of the church.  It is scripture that members may see the face of the Lord.  Bruce Mckonkie taught in General Conference-

It is his will that we gain testimonies, that we seek revelation, that we covet to prophesy, that we desire spiritual gifts, and that we seek the face of the Lord.

The Lord wants all his children to gain light and truth and knowledge from on high. It is his will that we pierce the veil and rend the heavens and see the visions of eternity.

By his own mouth he has given us this promise: “It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am” (D&C 93:1).

Such is his promise to us here and now while we yet dwell as mortals in a world of sorrow and sin.

[Calm]

Snuffer was promoting seeing Christ in this lifetime long before he got pulled in for questioning the authority and moral standing of church leadership.

[hope_for_things]

10 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I know, but I don't understand why that is significant at all.  Our understanding of the gospel and how best to help others receive a testimony of it is constantly growing and changing.  When I was serving my mission we used genealogy and the 'have you ever wondered why Mormons are called Mormons?' question to help people become converted.  That doesn't mean that focusing on different things is wrong though.

The changing dynamic of the church is apparent, but I don't automatically assume all change is good.  Change can and often does go in the wrong direction, and the use of the First Vision narrative in correlated modern Mormonism I believe is an example of this kind of change with more negative consequences.  

13 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Those people are not just promoting visitations of Jesus though, and it's the other things they are promoting that are getting them pushed out of the church.  It is scripture that members may see the face of the Lord.  Bruce Mckonkie taught in General Conference-

It is his will that we gain testimonies, that we seek revelation, that we covet to prophesy, that we desire spiritual gifts, and that we seek the face of the Lord.

The Lord wants all his children to gain light and truth and knowledge from on high. It is his will that we pierce the veil and rend the heavens and see the visions of eternity.

By his own mouth he has given us this promise: “It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am” (D&C 93:1).

Such is his promise to us here and now while we yet dwell as mortals in a world of sorrow and sin.

I'm not an expert on the Snufferite movement by any means.  Mormon Stories podcast has had a few multi-part interviews of late with members of that movement that I've found interesting.  From what I've heard, many of them would say that this promotion of visitations by Jesus is a key part of why they are being pushed out.  

As for McKonkie's kind of Mormonism, don't you think the modern church is moving away from it in recent years?  Mormon Doctrine is no longer published, the softening of the becoming God's doctrine and an overall distancing from many other of the very conservative approaches in the 20th century.  I would be shocked to hear a quote like you posted above in a conference today.  

 

[hope_for_things]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

Snuffer was promoting seeing Christ in this lifetime long before he got pulled in for questioning the authority and moral standing of church leadership.

It was all part of a long process.  Excommunications take time.  

[Calm]

True, but one shouldn't assume that just because a behaviour happened before discipline started, it automatically contributed to it.

I believe I know of three writers who claim one can see Christ and who were never disciplined for promoting such (Pontius and his coauthor "Spencer" and Rowe).  I am pretty certain I could dig up more given the number going around at the conferences put together that had similar speakers along with these.

Snuffer reported he only had problems once he started questioning authority.

Edited January 2, 2018 by Calm

[bluebell]

23 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

The changing dynamic of the church is apparent, but I don't automatically assume all change is good.  Change can and often does go in the wrong direction, and the use of the First Vision narrative in correlated modern Mormonism I believe is an example of this kind of change with more negative consequences.  

I'm not an expert on the Snufferite movement by any means.  Mormon Stories podcast has had a few multi-part interviews of late with members of that movement that I've found interesting.  From what I've heard, many of them would say that this promotion of visitations by Jesus is a key part of why they are being pushed out.  

As for McKonkie's kind of Mormonism, don't you think the modern church is moving away from it in recent years?  Mormon Doctrine is no longer published, the softening of the becoming God's doctrine and an overall distancing from many other of the very conservative approaches in the 20th century.  I would be shocked to hear a quote like you posted above in a conference today.  

 

In April 2017 GC Cheryl C. Lant taught-

Brothers and sisters, we are the angels that Heavenly Father has sent today to bless the children, and we can help them to one day see the face of the Savior as we teach the principles of the gospel and fill our homes with the joy of living them. Together we can come to know Him. We can feel of His love and His blessings. And through Him we can return to the presence of the Father. We do this as we are willing to be obedient, faithful, and diligent in following His teachings.

“Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am” (D&C 93:1).

Russel M. Nelson taught this in the late 1990s-

Brothers and sisters, race, nationality, occupation, or other interests need not stand in the way. All can look to the Lord. All can place him first in their lives. Those who do so and remain faithful will qualify for his sublime promise:”31 “Every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am.”32 This glorious destiny can be ours, I so testify in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

I don't think the church is distancing itself from D&C 93.

[Robert F. Smith]

11 hours ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

I read the same thing in Lucy Mack when she talks about the 8 witnesses. They go to the family prayer spot out in the woods and await the delivery of the plates by an ancient Nephite.

Thanks, Benjamin.  Two versions of that event are contained on pp. 455-456 of Lavina Fielding Anderson, Lucy's Book: A Critical Edition of Lucy Mack Smith's Family Memoir (Signature Books, 2001):

Quote

They all that is the male part of the company repaired to a little grove where it was customary for the family to offer up their sacred prayers--as Joseph had been instructed that the plates would be carried there by one of the ancient Nephites.  Here <it> was that those 8 witnesses recorded in the Book of Mormon looked upon the plates and handled them of which they bear witness   (Lucy, 1844-45 MS)

Quote

Soon after they came, all the male part of the company, with my husband, Samuel, and Hyrum, retired to a place where the family were in the habit of offering up their secret devotions to God.  They went to this place, because it had been revealed to Joseph that the plates would be carried thither by one of the ancient Nephites.  Here it was, that those eight witnesses, whose names are recorded in the Book of Mormon, looked upon them and handled them.  Of which they bear record  (Corey/Pratt 1853 MS)

 

[Robert F. Smith]

On 1/1/2018 at 12:11 PM, ksfisher said:

I’ve never heard of the grove being used by other Smith family members for prayer.  It would be interesting if it was.  If you run into the reference please post it.

Benjamin Seeker put me on to the source, below, and I would have found it more easily but for the lack of a good index for Lavina's critical text:  Anyhow, two versions of that event are contained on pp. 455-456 of Lavina Fielding Anderson, Lucy's Book: A Critical Edition of Lucy Mack Smith's Family Memoir (Signature Books, 2001):

Quote

They all that is the male part of the company repaired to a little grove where it was customary for the family to offer up their sacred prayers--as Joseph had been instructed that the plates would be carried there by one of the ancient Nephites.  Here <it> was that those 8 witnesses recorded in the Book of Mormon looked upon the plates and handled them of which they bear witness   (Lucy, 1844-45 MS)

Quote

Soon after they came, all the male part of the company, with my husband, Samuel, and Hyrum, retired to a place where the family were in the habit of offering up their secret devotions to God.  They went to this place, because it had been revealed to Joseph that the plates would be carried thither by one of the ancient Nephites.  Here it was, that those eight witnesses, whose names are recorded in the Book of Mormon, looked upon them and handled them.  Of which they bear record  (Corey/Pratt 1853 MS)