The great apostasy

[JLHPROF]

18 minutes ago, theplains said:

And yet the author of the Book of Mormon believes in the loss of many plain and precious parts of the Bible (heading
of 1 Nephi 13)

Jim

Correct.  Many truths never made it into the Bible.  Many truths were lost from the Bible.  And many truths exist outside the Bible, even back the days of the Apostles.
 

[snowflake]

18 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

True.  It is also interesting to see what teachings are not recorded in the gospels as coming from Christ yet are recorded in the epistles etc as being taught by the Apostles after Christ ascended.

Those teachings didn't appear from thin air.  Those 40 days featured a lot of things Christ may not have established before his death.  Who knows what knowledge never made it into the Bible. (John 21:5)

Agreed!

[MiserereNobis]

On 12/14/2017 at 2:22 PM, JLHPROF said:

True.  It is also interesting to see what teachings are not recorded in the gospels as coming from Christ yet are recorded in the epistles etc as being taught by the Apostles after Christ ascended.

Those teachings didn't appear from thin air.  Those 40 days featured a lot of things Christ may not have established before his death.  Who knows what knowledge never made it into the Bible. (John 21:5)

Catholics agree, too. That's why Apostolic Tradition is one of the legs of the Church (the other two are scripture and the magisterium).

[cdowis]

11 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Catholics agree, too. That's why Apostolic Tradition is one of the legs of the Church (the other two are scripture and the magisterium).

While we have a claim on living prophets, the RCC has tradition.  The LDS church has its own tradition, although not mentioned as an official source of doctrine. 

Let us take the ban on the priesthood as an example.  The church has no explanation for that ban, but it was indeed part of our doctrine and it took a revelation to change that..... shall I call it -- apostolic tradition.

Edited December 17, 2017 by cdowis

[mnn727]

On 12/8/2017 at 12:31 PM, snowflake said:

 

These churches have documented histories that can trace back their Bishops and church lineages to the original Apostles.

 

They make claims, but there is no outside proof that the Apostles passed along their authority to (name your favorite claimant)

[3DOP]

On 12/20/2017 at 1:54 PM, mnn727 said:

They make claims, but there is no outside proof that the Apostles passed along their authority to (name your favorite claimant)

Who makes claims? I am Catholic. I like the Apostles. I think they fulfilled their mission...to make successors. Maybe I misunderstand you. But your claim is what? It seems like you think that the Apostles did not pass on their authority? Whose fault would that be? Apostles are good, but failed to pass on authority? I must be missing something.

It might help to explain "outside". Outside or inside proof? I don't know the difference. We have inside proof but not outside proof? What is wrong with inside proof? What is inside/outside proof?

Edited December 23, 2017 by 3DOP

[Josh Khinder]

On ‎12‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 2:06 PM, JLHPROF said:

Correct.  Many truths never made it into the Bible.  Many truths were lost from the Bible.  And many truths exist outside the Bible, even back the days of the Apostles.
 

What Truth's missing from the Bible have been revealed in the Book of Mormon ?

[cdowis]

56 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said:

What Truth's missing from the Bible have been revealed in the Book of Mormon ?

Thank you for asking. 

is baptism necessary for salvation......  what covenant do we make at baptism
how about infant baptism....  
what would happen to us if there were no resurrection......
tell us specifically about the nature of hell.....
what is the relationship between mercy and justice......
between works, grace, and works.......
what test do you use to know, what basic question does one ask  whether something is good or evil.....
we lived before we were born and made decisions.......
free agency vs foreordination ......
for a nation, what is the most dangerous thing that eventually would destroy it......
tell us about the Abrahamic covenant and the law of adoption......
the relationship between the Bible and the Book of Mormon 

Edited December 23, 2017 by cdowis

[Bob Crockett]

1 hour ago, Josh Khinder said:

What Truth's missing from the Bible have been revealed in the Book of Mormon ?

God is a man.

[Josh Khinder]

7 hours ago, cdowis said:

Thank you for asking. 

is baptism necessary for salvation......  what covenant do we make at baptism
how about infant baptism....  
what would happen to us if there were no resurrection......
tell us specifically about the nature of hell.....
what is the relationship between mercy and justice......
between works, grace, and works.......
what test do you use to know, what basic question does one ask  whether something is good or evil.....
we lived before we were born and made decisions.......
free agency vs foreordination ......
for a nation, what is the most dangerous thing that eventually would destroy it......
tell us about the Abrahamic covenant and the law of adoption......
the relationship between the Bible and the Book of Mormon 

Most of your list isn't mentioned in The Book of Mormon, except infant baptism which isn't an exclusive teaching for Mormonism . The Pre-Existence for sure isn't taught in the Book of Mormon 

[kiwi57]

On 12/9/2017 at 7:31 AM, snowflake said:

The LDS claim of the great apostasy. I have been looking into this LDS claim and am not finding evidence to support it.

Churches that claim some form of episcopal apostolic succession, dating back to the apostles or to leaders from the apostolic era, include the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Oriental Orthodox Churches, the Church of the East, the Anglican Communion, and some Lutheran churches .

These churches have documented histories that can trace back their Bishops and church lineages to the original Apostles.

My question is when and where did the so called great apostasy happen?

Your argument misses the point. Nobody denies how far back the mainstream churches can trace their history. The Great Apostasy is the apostasy of the Church, not apostasy from the Church.

[kiwi57]

1 hour ago, Josh Khinder said:

Most of your list isn't mentioned in The Book of Mormon, except infant baptism which isn't an exclusive teaching for Mormonism . The Pre-Existence for sure isn't taught in the Book of Mormon 

This is a remarkable claim. Have you ever actually read the Book of Mormon? I recognised every element but one in cdowis' list without having to look them up. And I can add to it, too.

[kiwi57]

On 12/9/2017 at 10:11 AM, snowflake said:

Why did you forget verse 18? ¹⁸ And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

According to the great apostasy the gates of hell prevailed against Jesus' church for 1800 years? 

Thank you for asking about verse 18. You make all sorts of assumptions about what the gates of hell mean, and how they can "prevail."

The short version is this: Hell is not, (as in popular Miltonian imagination) the kingdom of Satan. That notion is quite unscriptual. It was Saturn, not Satan, who reigned in the Pagan underworld; Medieval Christianity borrowed that imagery (an apostate notion!) but it doesn't fit Scripture. Hell, simply put, is nothing more or less than the abode of the departed spirits; the gates of hell, therefore, are the gates or doors that keep the spirits confined there. Since the Church has the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, those keys also unlock the gates of hell.

Verse 18 is not, as so many have so fondly imagined for so long, a guarantee of institutional safety for the Church. Rather, it is a promise that Christ's Church will have the power to extend salvation to the dead.

On 12/9/2017 at 10:11 AM, snowflake said:

How do they transfer authority?

By the laying on of hands.

On 12/9/2017 at 10:11 AM, snowflake said:

Is "authority" and "priesthood" the same thing? 

They are related concepts.

[Josh Khinder]

2 hours ago, kiwi57 said:

Your argument misses the point. Nobody denies how far back the mainstream churches can trace their history. The Great Apostasy is the apostasy of the Church, not apostasy from the Church.

is baptism necessary for salvation......  what covenant do we make at baptism
how about infant baptism....  
what would happen to us if there were no resurrection......
tell us specifically about the nature of hell.....
what is the relationship between mercy and justice......
between works, grace, and works.......
what test do you use to know, what basic question does one ask  whether something is good or evil.....
we lived before we were born and made decisions.......
free agency vs foreordination ......
for a nation, what is the most dangerous thing that eventually would destroy it......
tell us about the Abrahamic covenant and the law of adoption......
the relationship between the Bible and the Book of Mormon  

The 4 in red aren't taught in the Book of Mormon in fact the Book of Mormon

on hell says it's never ending where Mormonism teaches you can get out of it .

This is just a very partial examination of this list 

 

[Bobbieaware]

1 hour ago, Josh Khinder said:

is baptism necessary for salvation......  what covenant do we make at baptism
how about infant baptism....  
what would happen to us if there were no resurrection......
tell us specifically about the nature of hell.....
what is the relationship between mercy and justice......
between works, grace, and works.......
what test do you use to know, what basic question does one ask  whether something is good or evil.....
we lived before we were born and made decisions.......
free agency vs foreordination ......
for a nation, what is the most dangerous thing that eventually would destroy it......
tell us about the Abrahamic covenant and the law of adoption......
the relationship between the Bible and the Book of Mormon  

The 4 in red aren't taught in the Book of Mormon in fact the Book of Mormon

on hell says it's never ending where Mormonism teaches you can get out of it .

This is just a very partial examination of this list 

 

You truly are an ignoramus when it comes to Mormonism. It reminds me of the old saying that speaks of the kind of people who know just enough to be dangerous. I could take a few moments to compose a post that would clearly demonstrate how you’re mistaken in the above comments, but I’ll forebear from composing that post for now just so I can watch you stew in your own know-it-all ignorance for a while. And don’t make the mistake of thinking I’m bluffing because I really do know my stuff. So rather than having me spoon feed you the answers, why don’t you spend some time researching to get the answers on your so that you can, at least partially, avoid being made a fool of?

[Josh Khinder]

6 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

You truly are an ignoramus when it comes to Mormonism. It reminds me of the old saying that speaks of the kind of people who know just enough to be dangerous. I could take a few moments to compose a post that would clearly demonstrate how you’re mistaken in the above comments, but I’ll forebear from composing that post for now just so I can watch you stew in your own know-it-all ignorance for a while. And don’t make the mistake of thinking I’m bluffing because I really do know my stuff. So rather than having me spoon feed you the answers, why don’t you spend some time researching to get the answers on your so that you can, at least partially, avoid being made a fool of?

Example of the Teaching hell is temporary when the Book of Mormon teaches it is not 

 

Status of King David

 Question: "Some time ago the question came up as to the standing of King David because of his sin as pertaining to Uriah. Because we understand there is no forgiveness for murder some of the class felt he lost his priesthood and retrogressed from the time of this incident. Others felt that inasmuch as David repented and abhorred his sin and indicated his sorrow, that he did not lose his priesthood. Would you please enlighten us? What is the teaching of the Church on this point? What is his status?"

 

Answer: David sorely repented all his life, but his sin was so great that he lost everything and the Prophet Joseph Smith has given us this information. Speaking of the Jews whom Peter addressed as recorded in the third chapter of Acts, they could not receive forgiveness for their sins, although they repented, until Christ comes, and the same is true of David. These are the words of the Prophet to the Jews:

 

A murderer, for instance, one that sheds innocent blood, cannot have forgiveness. David sought repentance at the hand of God carefully with tears, for the murder of Uriah; but he could only get it through hell; he got a promise that his soul should not be left in hell.

 

Although David was a king, he never did obtain the spirit and power of Elijah and the fulness of the priesthood; and the priesthood that he received, and the throne and kingdom of David is to be taken from him and given to another by the name of David in the last days, raised up out of his lineage.

 

. . . "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing (redemption) shall come from the presence of the Lord, and he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you," &c. (Acts 3:19-21.) The time of redemption here had reference to the time when Christ should come; then and not till then, would their sins be blotted out. Why? Because they were murderers, and no murderer hath eternal life. Even David must wait for those times of refreshing, before he can come forth and his sins be blotted out. For Peter, speaking of him says, "David hath not yet ascended into heaven, for his sepulchre is with us to this day." (Acts 2:29.) His remains were then in the tomb. Now, we read that many bodies of the Saints arose at Christ's resurrection, probably all the Saints, but it seems that David did not. (Matthew 27:52-53.) Why? Because he had been a murderer. . . . (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 239, 188.)

 (Matt. 5:22); 18:9), and of everlasting fire (Matt. 18:8 25:41), and everlasting punishment (Matt 25:46). Jesus warned in Matt. 10:28, "Fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Rom. 5:9 says believers in Christ are "saved from (God's) wrath through Him (Christ). Thus, for those who believe the Bible, there is a very real hell from which to be saved.

LDS Apostle John Widtsoe declared, "In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, there is no hell. All will find a measure of salvation" (E. & R., p. 216). Yet, the B. of M. says, "The devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell and behold others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell" (II Nephi 28:21-22). 

The B. of M. also says, "If ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked" (Alma 34:35).

 

Edited December 24, 2017 by Josh Khinder

[Josh Khinder]

18 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

God is a man.

Where does it teach God the Father is a physical man in the Book of Mormon ?

[Bob Crockett]

Snip

Edited December 25, 2017 by Bob Crockett

[2BizE]

When did this term "The great apostasy" first get used?  Was it from the Restoration Movement (Alexander Campbell), or was it in more modern times?

[Bobbieaware]

On 12/24/2017 at 2:17 PM, Josh Khinder said:

Where does it teach God the Father is a physical man in the Book of Mormon ?

In 1 Nephi 1 of the Book of Mormon, the prophet Lehi is given the sacred privilege of being able to gaze into heaven and while doing so he observes God the Fathes is a glorified Man who is sitting upon his heavenly throne and being worshipped by throngs of heavenly hosts, and as this is occurring the personage of Christ enters the scene as a separate and distinct glorified human individual.

Then later n the Book of Mormon narrative , in Alma 36, the prophet Alma is also given the privilege of being able to gaze into heaven and he too observes that God the Father is a glorified Male human being with a human form that allows him to be seated on a throne. In the same vision, Alma also observes that this same glorified Man is recognized as God and worshiped by numberless concourses of angels. 

Of similar interest, in 1 Nephi 11 the prophet Nephi sees the Spirit of the Lord (the Holy Ghost) and observes that this  thrird member of the Godhead is a Spirit who is also in the form of a male human being.

The Latter-Day Saints believe spirit is matter but a finer, purer and more refined form of matter; and even though human instruments cannot now detect it, one day we will understamd anything and everything that exists is composed of matter.

Edited December 25, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[Josh Khinder]

8 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

In 1 Nephi 1 of the Book of Mormon, the prophet Lehi is given the sacred privilege of being able to gaze into heaven and while doing so he observes God the Fathes is a glorified Man who is sitting upon his heavenly throne and being worshipped by throngs of heavenly hosts, and as this is occurring the personage of Christ enters the scene as a separate and distinct glorified human individual.

Then later n the Book of Mormon narrative , in Alma 36, the prophet Alma is also given the privilege of being able to gaze into heaven and he too observes that God the Father is a glorified Male human being with a human form that allows him to be seated on a throne. In the same vision, Alma also observes that this same glorified Man is recognized as God and worshiped by numberless concourses of angels. 

Of similar interest, in 1 Nephi 11 the prophet Nephi sees the Spirit of the Lord (the Holy Ghost) and observes that this  thrird member of the Godhead is a Spirit who is also in the form of a male human being.

The Latter-Day Saints believe spirit is matter but a finer, purer and more refined form of matter; and even though human instruments cannot now detect it, one day we will understamd anything and everything that exists is composed of matter.

Wasn't the LORD GOD of Nephi Jehovah like the Old Testament God ? 

 

Selections from Answers to Gospel Questions
Taken from the writings of Joseph Fielding Smith
Tenth President of Mormonism
A course Study for the Melchizedek Priesthood Quorums
1972-73

Lesson 6 page 39

It was Jesus who gave commandments to Adam after he was driven out of the Garden of Eden and who directed Enoch and Noah before the flood. It was Christ who named Abraham and made him that through his posterity all nations would be blessed. He, it was who called Moses to lead Isreal out of Egypt and who wrote with his fingers on the tables of stone. He had no body until he was born in Bethlehem.

[Bobbieaware]

13 hours ago, Josh Khinder said:

Wasn't the LORD GOD of Nephi Jehovah like the Old Testament God ? 

 

Selections from Answers to Gospel Questions
Taken from the writings of Joseph Fielding Smith
Tenth President of Mormonism
A course Study for the Melchizedek Priesthood Quorums
1972-73

Lesson 6 page 39

It was Jesus who gave commandments to Adam after he was driven out of the Garden of Eden and who directed Enoch and Noah before the flood. It was Christ who named Abraham and made him that through his posterity all nations would be blessed. He, it was who called Moses to lead Isreal out of Egypt and who wrote with his fingers on the tables of stone. He had no body until he was born in Bethlehem.

Just because Christ is the Word of the Father (his primary representative and spokesman in all things) doesn’t mean the Father isn’t also very actively involved in presiding over his creation. The entire New Testament plainly testifies there is a presiding personage called the Father and that Christ constantly interacts with him for the salvation and benefit of man. After his glorious bodily resurrection, Christ ascended into heaven to stand at the right hand side of the Father, a holy Man who possesses a very real physical body with a right and left hand side. And again, just because Christ is the Word of the Father doesn’t mean that in the New Testament the Father is totally out of the picture, as if he somehow doesn’t even exist, and that there aren’t those documented special occasions when, just like Joseph Smith’s first vision, the Father chooses to manifest his physical body unto the children of men.

1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one (the Father) sat on the throne.

3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. (Revelation 4)

and...

10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. (Revelation 4)

and...

1 And I saw IN THE RIGHT HAND of him (the Father) that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

7 AND HE (Christ) CAME AND TOOK THE BOOK OUT OF THE RIGHT HAND OF HIM (the Father) THAT SAT ON THE THRONE.

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; (Revelation 5)

So above we see the Father and the Son being worshiped in heaven as two separate and distinct human male individuals, with two distinct roles to fulfill. The Father is shown to be a material male human being who is able to sit atop a throne and hold a book in his right hand. Likewise, the resurrected Son of God is a material human being who is able to take the book out of the Father’s right human hand and open its seals. Just because Christ is the Logos of God does not mean that the personage of the Father will not reveal himself to man from time to time.

Another occasion when the Father revealed himself to man is when the Father and the Son appeared to the disciple Stephen at his martyrdom, when Stephen saw the Son of Man standing at the right hand (the very same right hand John saw holding the book) of the Father.

And so we read...

55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. (Acts 7)

 

 

 

 

Edited December 26, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[Josh Khinder]

9 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

Just because Christ is the Word of the Father (his primary representative and spokesman in all things) doesn’t mean the Father isn’t also very actively involved in presiding over his creation. The entire New Testament plainly testifies there is a presiding personage called the Father and that Christ constantly interacts with him for the salvation and benefit of man. After his glorious bodily resurrection, Christ ascended into heaven ro stand at the right hand side of the Father, a holy Man who possesses a very real physical body with a right and left hand side. And again, just because Christ is the Word of the Father doesn’t mean that in the New Testament the Father is totally out of the picture, as if he somehow doesn’t even exist, and that there aren’t those documented special occasions when, just like Joseph Smith’s first vision, the Father chooses to manifest his physical body unto the children of men.

1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one (the Father) sat on the throne.

3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. (Revelation 4)

and...

10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. (Revelation 4)

and...

1 And I saw IN THE RIGHT HAND of him (the Father) that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

7 AND HE (Christ) CAME AND TOOK THE BOOK OUT OF THE RIGHT HAND OF HIM (the Father) THAT SAT ON THE THRONE.

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; (Revelation 5)

So above we see the Father and the Son being worshiped in heaven as two separate and distinct human male individuals, with two distinct roles to fulfill. The Father is shown to be a material male human being who is able to sit atop a throne and hold a book in his right hand. Likewise, the resurrected Son of God is a material human being who is able to take the book out of the Father’s right human hand and open its seals. Just because Christ is the Logos of God does not mean that the personage of the Father will not reveal himself to man from time to time.

Another occasion when the Father revealed himself to man is when the Father and the Son appeared to the disciple Stephen at his martyrdom, when Stephen saw the Son of Man standing at the right hand (the very same right hand John saw holding the book) of the Father.

And so we read...

55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. (Acts 7)

 

 

 

 

The God of the Book of Mormon, The Old Testament and New Testament is primary Jesus

 

1. “To those who through the righteousness of Our God and Savior Jesus Christ,” 2 Peter 1:1

Emphatic Diaglott

2. “The glorious appearing of our Great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,” Titus 2:13 Emphatic Diaglott

3.”Keep watch over yourself and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has you overseer. Be shepherds of the Church of  God, which he bought with his own blood.” Acts 20:28  New International V

4.”Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all forever praised amen” Romans 9:5 King James

5.”The life appeared, we have seen it and testified to it, and we proclaim to you the Eternal Life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.” 1 John 1:2 King James and we are in him who is the true even in his son Jesus, He is the True God and Eternal Life,” 1 John 5:20 King James

6.”In the beginning, was the WORD, and the WORD was with GOD and the WORD was GOD Himself.” John 1:1 Amplified Version

7.”And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness; GOD was manifested in the flesh.” 1 Timothy 3:16 King James

8.”and Thomas answered and said to him “ My LORD and my God,” Jesus said to him :Thomas because you have seen me you have believed,” John 20:28 King James

9.”for in him dwells all the fullness of the GODHEAD BODILY,” Colossians 2:9 King James “GODHEAD” {Greek-Theotetos}. In Thayers Greek  page 288; The state of being God

10.”who although being essentially one with God and in the Form of God {possessing the fullness of the attributes which make GOD GOD} did not think this equality with God was a thing to be grasped or retained.” Philippians 2:6 Amplified version

11.”No one has seen God {referring to the Father} BUT GOD the One and Only, who is at the Fathers side has made him known.” John 1:18 New International  {Jehovah GOD was seen many times by the people, so in them cases it couldn’t be the Father, {had to be Jesus who was seen and called Jehovah.

 

“Moses and Aaron, Nahab and Abihu, and seventy of the Elders went up and saw God of Israel under his feet was something like pavement made of sapphire, clear as the sky it self, but God did not raise his hand against these leaders of Israelites, they saw God, and they ate and drank,” Exodus 24:9-11

 

“at this point the men turned from there way to Sodom but as for JEHOVAH he was standing still before Abraham….then JEHOVAH went his way when he had finished speaking to Abraham.” Genesis 18:22-33 New World Translation Genesis 18:2 says three men appeared to Abraham, two are identified as angels {Genesis 19:1} ONE IS IDENTIFIED AS JEHOVAH GOD  Genesis 18:1,3,13,14,17,20,22,26,27,31,32 and 33

Genesis 19: 27

Now Abraham got up early in the morning and went to the place where he had stood before Jehovah

 

 

[pogi]

40 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said:

The God of the Book of Mormon, The Old Testament and New Testament is primary Jesus

What is your point? It doesn't mean that God the Father did not exist.  

I would contest that the primary God of the New Testament and post-Jesus Book of Mormon era, is not Jesus, but the Father.  Jesus is the primary character in the New Testament and he did not pray to himself or teach others to pray to or worship him.  He taught others to give all the glory to the Father.  He taught that only God the Father was good.  That he only did the will of the Father.   Christ's apostles did not pray to Jesus, they prayed to the Father, as Christ instructed and demonstrated. 

[Josh Khinder]

22 minutes ago, pogi said:

What is your point? It doesn't mean that God the Father did not exist.  

I would contest that the primary God of the New Testament and post-Jesus Book of Mormon era, is not Jesus, but the Father.  Jesus is the primary character in the New Testament and he did not pray to himself or teach others to pray to or worship him.  He taught others to give all the glory to the Father.  He taught that only God the Father was good.  That he only did the will of the Father.   Christ's apostles did not pray to Jesus, they prayed to the Father, as Christ instructed and demonstrated. 

My point is the name above every name is Jesus 

Philippians 2

 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Actually Jesus said only God is good , not the Father. The three members of the Godhead are good , are you saying Jesus and the Holy Spirit aren't good ? 

The Book of Mormon tells us to worship and pray to Jesus

1 Nephi 11: 24 And after he had said these words, he said unto me: Look! And I looked, and I beheld the Son of God going forth among the children of men; and I saw many fall down at his feet and worship him.

2 Nephi 25: 29 And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.

 3 Nephi 11:

13 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto them saying:

14 Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world.

17 Hosanna! Blessed be the name of the Most High God! And they did fall down at the feet of Jesus, and did worship him.

 3 Nephi 19:

 18 And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 26, 2017 by Josh Khinder