snowflake Posted November 7, 2017 Posted November 7, 2017 D&C section 2: 1 Behold, I will reveal unto you the Priesthood, by the hand of Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. 2 And he shall plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers, and the hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers. 3 If it were not so, the whole earth would be utterly wasted at his coming. From what I understand the Aaronic Priesthood was restored by John the Baptist to Oliver Cowdrey and Joseph Smith in 1829. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/2?lang=eng The Melchizedek Priesthood apparently was restored by Peter, James and John at a later date with the details not documented as precisely. https://history.lds.org/article/historic-sites/pennsylvania/priesthood-restoration-site/where-was-the-priesthood-restored?lang=eng My question is, why wasn't the Priesthood restored by the hand of Elijah the prophet per D&C 2?
Popular Post bluebell Posted November 7, 2017 Popular Post Posted November 7, 2017 1 minute ago, snowflake said: D&C section 2: 1 Behold, I will reveal unto you the Priesthood, by the hand of Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. 2 And he shall plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers, and the hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers. 3 If it were not so, the whole earth would be utterly wasted at his coming. From what I understand the Aaronic Priesthood was restored by John the Baptist to Oliver Cowdrey and Joseph Smith in 1829. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/2?lang=eng The Melchizedek Priesthood apparently was restored by Peter, James and John at a later date with the details not documented as precisely. https://history.lds.org/article/historic-sites/pennsylvania/priesthood-restoration-site/where-was-the-priesthood-restored?lang=eng My question is, why wasn't the Priesthood restored by the hand of Elijah the prophet per D&C 2? Section 2 is the promise made by Moroni to JS that Elijah would come and give JS priesthood keys, including the keys to perform sealings (turn the hearts of children to their ancestors and the hearts of fathers to their descendants, thus enabling the entire human family to be joined, through the priesthood). The realization of this promise is recorded in D&C 110. 6
CV75 Posted November 7, 2017 Posted November 7, 2017 4 minutes ago, snowflake said: D&C section 2: 1 Behold, I will reveal unto you the Priesthood, by the hand of Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. 2 And he shall plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers, and the hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers. 3 If it were not so, the whole earth would be utterly wasted at his coming. From what I understand the Aaronic Priesthood was restored by John the Baptist to Oliver Cowdrey and Joseph Smith in 1829. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/2?lang=eng The Melchizedek Priesthood apparently was restored by Peter, James and John at a later date with the details not documented as precisely. https://history.lds.org/article/historic-sites/pennsylvania/priesthood-restoration-site/where-was-the-priesthood-restored?lang=eng My question is, why wasn't the Priesthood restored by the hand of Elijah the prophet per D&C 2? In D&C 110, Elijah stood before Joseph and Oliver and said, "Behold, the time has fully come... Therefore, the keys of this [Elijah's] dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors." As the third personage restoring the keys of his dispensation, Elijah is revealing the Priesthood, for with his set of keys, the kingdom is fully set to prepare for the great and dreadful day of the Lord. Peter, James and John had committed only those keys that were necessary for directing the work up to April 3, 1836 (just as John the Baptist had committed the keys for the work done under the Aaronic Priesthood for a short time until the Melchizedek priesthood was restored). Once Elijah committed his keys, after Moses and Elias committed theirs, the Priesthood was fully revealed, meaning all the needed keys became operative in one prophet. 1
snowflake Posted November 7, 2017 Author Posted November 7, 2017 13 minutes ago, bluebell said: Section 2 is the promise made by Moroni to JS that Elijah would come and give JS priesthood keys, including the keys to perform sealings (turn the hearts of children to their ancestors and the hearts of fathers to their descendants, thus enabling the entire human family to be joined, through the priesthood). The realization of this promise is recorded in D&C 110. D&C 110 13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said: 14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi—testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come— 15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse— 16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors. So the priesthood was not revealed by Elijah, but the "keys of this dispensation", and by this (keys of this dispensation) ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors. Seems like this episode was fulfilling Malachi 4, not D&C 2 IMO. Malachi 4 does not talk about priesthood restoration at all but the day of the Lord. And Elijah does not mention Priesthood at all.
Duncan Posted November 7, 2017 Posted November 7, 2017 (edited) 11 minutes ago, snowflake said: D&C 110 13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said: 14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi—testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come— 15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse— 16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors. So the priesthood was not revealed by Elijah, but the "keys of this dispensation", and by this (keys of this dispensation) ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors. Seems like this episode was fulfilling Malachi 4, not D&C 2 IMO. Malachi 4 does not talk about priesthood restoration at all but the day of the Lord. And Elijah does not mention Priesthood at all. Keys aren't Priesthood, the righteous use of Priesthood is directed by keys. https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/sections-1-9/section-2-the-promises-made-to-the-fathers?lang=eng Edited November 7, 2017 by Duncan 2
bluebell Posted November 7, 2017 Posted November 7, 2017 25 minutes ago, snowflake said: D&C 110 13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said: 14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi—testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come— 15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse— 16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors. So the priesthood was not revealed by Elijah, but the "keys of this dispensation", and by this (keys of this dispensation) ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors. Seems like this episode was fulfilling Malachi 4, not D&C 2 IMO. Malachi 4 does not talk about priesthood restoration at all but the day of the Lord. And Elijah does not mention Priesthood at all. 110 fulfills both the promises made in Malachi and those related in section 2. Sealing is a priesthood ordinance. As you can see from reading the bible, no one can seal on earth and in heaven without authority from God. the definition of the priesthood is "the authority to act in the name of God." Elijah had the authority to seal people and he gave that authority to JS so that it would be present in our day just like it was in Elijah's. We may disagree on how that authority is conveyed from God to man, but that is is necessary shouldn't be in doubt. 4
CV75 Posted November 7, 2017 Posted November 7, 2017 38 minutes ago, snowflake said: D&C 110 13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said: 14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi—testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come— 15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse— 16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors. So the priesthood was not revealed by Elijah, but the "keys of this dispensation", and by this (keys of this dispensation) ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors. Seems like this episode was fulfilling Malachi 4, not D&C 2 IMO. Malachi 4 does not talk about priesthood restoration at all but the day of the Lord. And Elijah does not mention Priesthood at all. By committing to Joseph the keys of turning the hearts (which is the sealing power -- since some fathers and children are on earth and others are in heaven, this key unites them under the covenant of Abraham), which is the last set after Moses and Elias committed the keys of their dispensations to Joseph, making the a full, multi-dispensational set of keys, Elijah is revealing the full Priesthood to him, at least enough to prepare for the great and dreadful day of the Lord. 2
snowflake Posted November 7, 2017 Author Posted November 7, 2017 27 minutes ago, bluebell said: 110 fulfills both the promises made in Malachi and those related in section 2. Sealing is a priesthood ordinance. As you can see from reading the bible, no one can seal on earth and in heaven without authority from God. the definition of the priesthood is "the authority to act in the name of God." Elijah had the authority to seal people and he gave that authority to JS so that it would be present in our day just like it was in Elijah's. We may disagree on how that authority is conveyed from God to man, but that is is necessary shouldn't be in doubt. Where in the OT was Elijah (or any other Prophet) using priesthood authority to "seal families" in the temple like the modern LDS sect does? It seems to me like section 2 of the D&C clearly identifies Elijah as the restorer of the Priesthood....Not Peter, James and John and John the Baptist, that's all.
Garden Girl Posted November 7, 2017 Posted November 7, 2017 12 minutes ago, snowflake said: Where in the OT was Elijah (or any other Prophet) using priesthood authority to "seal families" in the temple like the modern LDS sect does? It seems to me like section 2 of the D&C clearly identifies Elijah as the restorer of the Priesthood....Not Peter, James and John and John the Baptist, that's all. Hello snowflake... I'm not sure about the OT, but in the New Testament, before his ascension, Christ bestowed the sealing keys upon Peter... Matt 16: 19... "And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Peter... with James and John... bestowed these keys upon Joseph Smith. GG 1
Duncan Posted November 7, 2017 Posted November 7, 2017 (edited) 22 minutes ago, snowflake said: Where in the OT was Elijah (or any other Prophet) using priesthood authority to "seal families" in the temple like the modern LDS sect does? It seems to me like section 2 of the D&C clearly identifies Elijah as the restorer of the Priesthood....Not Peter, James and John and John the Baptist, that's all. I don't know if Elijah had to seal families per say but we know he gave the sealing power to Peter et al in Matt 17. Section 2 is an expansion of Malachi 4:6(I think, I don't have my scriptures handy). Peter and the Apostles received the Priesthood and were promised the sealing keys and received them. What specifically they did with them I am not sure. We know that Joseph and Oliver got the Priesthood from Peter, James and John and then 7 years later received the keys to direct how that priesthood would operate-how long after Joseph was sealing families I think based on the ruckus of the Kirtland and Missouri time frame they waited until the 1840's generally speaking Edited November 7, 2017 by Duncan 1
bluebell Posted November 7, 2017 Posted November 7, 2017 20 minutes ago, snowflake said: Where in the OT was Elijah (or any other Prophet) using priesthood authority to "seal families" in the temple like the modern LDS sect does? It seems to me like section 2 of the D&C clearly identifies Elijah as the restorer of the Priesthood....Not Peter, James and John and John the Baptist, that's all. No where in the bible. But the ability to seal on earth and in heaven, and that the ability is given through 'keys' is talked about in Matt (16 and 18). Elijah's biggest claim to fame in the bible is that it was promised that he would return (to turn the hearts of the children....etc.). And he did. Elijah restored a priesthood key.
stemelbow Posted November 7, 2017 Posted November 7, 2017 2 hours ago, bluebell said: Section 2 is the promise made by Moroni to JS that Elijah would come and give JS priesthood keys, including the keys to perform sealings (turn the hearts of children to their ancestors and the hearts of fathers to their descendants, thus enabling the entire human family to be joined, through the priesthood). The realization of this promise is recorded in D&C 110. This raised the question of when was the idea bourn of having priesthood keys? I wonder where it originated in JS thought.
Duncan Posted November 7, 2017 Posted November 7, 2017 16 minutes ago, stemelbow said: This raised the question of when was the idea bourn of having priesthood keys? I wonder where it originated in JS thought. Matt 16 mentions keys and sealing on earth, maybe then? but when Joseph read that I have no idea
snowflake Posted November 7, 2017 Author Posted November 7, 2017 40 minutes ago, Duncan said: I don't know if Elijah had to seal families per say but we know he gave the sealing power to Peter et al in Matt 17. Section 2 is an expansion of Malachi 4:6(I think, I don't have my scriptures handy). Peter and the Apostles received the Priesthood and were promised the sealing keys and received them. What specifically they did with them I am not sure. We know that Joseph and Oliver got the Priesthood from Peter, James and John and then 7 years later received the keys to direct how that priesthood would operate-how long after Joseph was sealing families I think based on the ruckus of the Kirtland and Missouri time frame they waited until the 1840's generally speaking Where in the NT do the Apostles receive the Priesthood? According to the Torah only Levites we able to receive the office of Priesthood.
snowflake Posted November 7, 2017 Author Posted November 7, 2017 55 minutes ago, bluebell said: No where in the bible. But the ability to seal on earth and in heaven, and that the ability is given through 'keys' is talked about in Matt (16 and 18). Elijah's biggest claim to fame in the bible is that it was promised that he would return (to turn the hearts of the children....etc.). And he did. Elijah restored a priesthood key. It sounds like the church is just making this stuff up IMO, Malachi 4: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. This has nothing to do with "sealing families for eternity".
Jane_Doe Posted November 7, 2017 Posted November 7, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, snowflake said: It sounds like the church is just making this stuff up IMO, Malachi 4: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. This has nothing to do with "sealing families for eternity". With all due respect, are you willing to acknowledge *any* LDS belief makes sense? Edited November 7, 2017 by Jane_Doe 1
Duncan Posted November 7, 2017 Posted November 7, 2017 (edited) 33 minutes ago, snowflake said: Where in the NT do the Apostles receive the Priesthood? According to the Torah only Levites we able to receive the office of Priesthood. I've always found it to be in Matthew 10 and there is a mention of "Holy Priesthood" in 1 Peter 2-I don't know the veracity of 1 Peter but there it is Edited November 7, 2017 by Duncan
bluebell Posted November 7, 2017 Posted November 7, 2017 1 hour ago, stemelbow said: This raised the question of when was the idea bourn of having priesthood keys? I wonder where it originated in JS thought. Priesthood Keys are spoken of in the NT. I'm not sure if there are earlier records that speak about them.
bluebell Posted November 7, 2017 Posted November 7, 2017 45 minutes ago, snowflake said: It sounds like the church is just making this stuff up IMO, Malachi 4: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. This has nothing to do with "sealing families for eternity". What does it have to do with?
bluebell Posted November 7, 2017 Posted November 7, 2017 54 minutes ago, snowflake said: Where in the NT do the Apostles receive the Priesthood? According to the Torah only Levites we able to receive the office of Priesthood. John 15:16 and Mark 3:14 speak of Christ ordaining the apostles. Christ gave them priesthood keys in Matt. 16 (which we've already talked about). 1
Sevenbak Posted November 7, 2017 Posted November 7, 2017 57 minutes ago, snowflake said: Where in the NT do the Apostles receive the Priesthood? According to the Torah only Levites we able to receive the office of Priesthood. LDS have a definitive belief about the specifics of Peter James and John receiving the keys of the priesthood directly from Moses and Elijah, with Christ. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/transfiguration-mount-of?lang=eng 1
Sevenbak Posted November 7, 2017 Posted November 7, 2017 (edited) Another thing worth mentioning here... The Jews have always left an empty chair at the Seder table at Passover for Elijah, who was promised in their ancient traditions and prophesies to return in the future. He did return, in the Kirtland temple, bestowing the sealing keys in this dispensation. A cool and often forgotten part of this is the exact fulfillment of the ancient Jewish custom. The Kirtland Temple visitation date occurred on Passover in 1836. Edited November 7, 2017 by Sevenbak 2
pogi Posted November 7, 2017 Posted November 7, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, stemelbow said: This raised the question of when was the idea bourn of having priesthood keys? I wonder where it originated in JS thought. "And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven (Matthew 16:19)." Edited November 7, 2017 by pogi 1
hope_for_things Posted November 7, 2017 Posted November 7, 2017 4 hours ago, snowflake said: D&C section 2: 1 Behold, I will reveal unto you the Priesthood, by the hand of Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. 2 And he shall plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers, and the hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers. 3 If it were not so, the whole earth would be utterly wasted at his coming. From what I understand the Aaronic Priesthood was restored by John the Baptist to Oliver Cowdrey and Joseph Smith in 1829. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/2?lang=eng The Melchizedek Priesthood apparently was restored by Peter, James and John at a later date with the details not documented as precisely. https://history.lds.org/article/historic-sites/pennsylvania/priesthood-restoration-site/where-was-the-priesthood-restored?lang=eng My question is, why wasn't the Priesthood restored by the hand of Elijah the prophet per D&C 2? I would recommend reading Gregory Prince's, Power from on High, as well as this essay by Dan Vogel in the JWHA, it starts on page 58. http://www.jwha.website/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Journal_14-1.pdf What you'll find as you read about the history of the priesthood restoration is that the evidence shows the theological concepts of priesthood were developing over time and after the initial events, especially the 1829 event, they didn't have the concept of Aaronic or Melchizedek priesthood until much later in 1833 - 1835 timeframe. The Elijah as a restorer of keys of sealing and priesthood didn't come until much later in the Nauvoo time period and after Joseph Smith even. So learning about the history and trying to see how doctrines developed over time is helpful when it comes to this section. I would also recommend using the earliest extant version of that D&C section and the JSP tools as they provide additional insights on the history and evolution of this section. http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1838-1856-volume-a-1-23-december-1805-30-august-1834/5 1
Duncan Posted November 8, 2017 Posted November 8, 2017 1 hour ago, hope_for_things said: I would recommend reading Gregory Prince's, Power from on High, as well as this essay by Dan Vogel in the JWHA, it starts on page 58. http://www.jwha.website/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Journal_14-1.pdf What you'll find as you read about the history of the priesthood restoration is that the evidence shows the theological concepts of priesthood were developing over time and after the initial events, especially the 1829 event, they didn't have the concept of Aaronic or Melchizedek priesthood until much later in 1833 - 1835 timeframe. The Elijah as a restorer of keys of sealing and priesthood didn't come until much later in the Nauvoo time period and after Joseph Smith even. So learning about the history and trying to see how doctrines developed over time is helpful when it comes to this section. I would also recommend using the earliest extant version of that D&C section and the JSP tools as they provide additional insights on the history and evolution of this section. http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1838-1856-volume-a-1-23-december-1805-30-august-1834/5 or read this MA about Section 110 http://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/etd/2120/ 2
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