"Gender Equality" in the Church - Slides Leaked

[Pete Ahlstrom]

14 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Mmm-kay.  Please explain to me what this leak has to do with financial disclosure.  Thanks in advance.  

Mmm-kay, he was inspired to start mormonleaks due to the lack of financial disclosure by the church.  Had the church routinely given such meaningful financial disclosure, maybe there would not have been mormonleaks.  Mmm-kay?  Anyway, you are correct that the current leak doesn't have anything to do with financial disclosure but that wasn't my point.  Nevertheless, you successfully pointed out the obvious.  Good job.  So, I guess you scored a point here?  Congratulations.

[HappyJackWagon]

13 hours ago, juliann said:

It got out of hand in feminist groups and they curbed it themselves. I'm in a couple of forums and they periodically have to do clean up when somebody starts lighting into other women. They were busy going after Valerie Hudson again in one which absolutely mystifies me considering she is probably the only internationally known professional feminist in all of Mormondom. But they don't like her theology. So even though we need Mormon women theologists, it only counts if they say the right things (Valerie considered sealings the ultimate equalizer of men and women in a religious sense, although she is not down with the practical aspects of women's lack of inclusion in the institutional church.) So it gets crazy all the way around.

The reason it matters so very much, though, is that it is now critical for women to present a strong and powerful image. The demure vocal style that became popular is anything but. 

 

Hmmm. Uncharacteristically you take no issue with Scott's "catty" comment? Interesting

[Pete Ahlstrom]

17 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Ryan is also an apostate -- which might have some bearing on the matter. 

What does that matter?  Should secular society start automatically discounting what religious believers say, just because they find that the religious are misguided in this area?  That seems a bit much.  Why don't we look at what people actually say first instead of automatically branding them as an apostate?  You might find that there are things that can be learned from everyone?  Sure you might be challenged and might have to change some of your cherished beliefs or how you interpret them, but it is well worth it, and you can still remain a believer.

[ALarson]

14 hours ago, JulieM said:

Well, there were others I saw discussed and I found them as or more interesting.  This one is interesting to read through:

https://mormonleaks.io/wiki/documents/b/ba/Utah_Areas_Annual_Mission_Presidents_Seminar-2015-09-09.pdf

They are a mission president's seminar notes that include:

15. Missionaries sometimes shy away from Joseph Smith.
16. They should focus on him rather than shying away from or being ashamed of him.
17. Never make the story of the Prophet Joseph Smith common place.
18. List on a white board the “fruits” of the Prophet Joseph Smith.
30. The seer stone of Joseph Smith’s day is like our IPhone of today.

And:

6. Sister missionaries are better used in providing training, not conducting zone conferences.

7 - Replace pornography with family history.

I hadn't seen this other leak, maybe start another thread for them?

These could be another interesting discussion.

[clarkgoble]

41 minutes ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

What does that matter?  Should secular society start automatically discounting what religious believers say, just because they find that the religious are misguided in this area? 

Start automatically discounting? Hasn't that been the default view for a very long time?

[ALarson]

20 hours ago, Calm said:

Do we know what mission president did this and to whom it was presented?  

It states that this was presented to members of the Quorum of the Seventy:

Quote

A PowerPoint slide deck created in 2014 that was meant to illustrate gender equality issues in the Mormon Church. The author of the presentation is a former Mission President who has worked for the Church in other unknown capacities. The presentation was given to members of the Quorum of the Seventy. It is unknown if other levels of leadership received the presentation

I don't know how they know this or who informed them of this, but the above statement is at the link from the OP.

[Pete Ahlstrom]

5 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

Start automatically discounting? Hasn't that been the default view for a very long time?

You understand my point, don't you?  Some like to use the "anti-mormon" label as a show stopper.  Why don't we engage on the issues and what is actually said instead of resorting to labels?  If you think secularists are guilty of this too, then maybe you shouldn't play along as well?

[Tacenda]

https://www.ksl.com/?sid=45541600&nid=148

New study ranks Utah worst state in nation for women’s equality. I wonder if there is a correlation to the church? Not saying there is. 

[hope_for_things]

On 9/24/2017 at 8:34 AM, ALarson said:

I've seen these discussed elsewhere, but not here.  They are some slides that were leaked yesterday regarding gender equality in the church.  I put "Gender Equality" in quotes in the title of this thread, because they are used in the title of the first slide.  They were reportedly made by a mission president.

I'd like this discussion to be about the slides and not about MormonLeaks or how they obtained these slides and so on, I hope we can keep it to the information contained on the slides.

They were posted yesterday with this explanation:

Here's a link to them (but if mods want it removed, just google "Gender Equality" MormonLeaks):

https://mormonleaks.io/wiki/documents/3/3d/Gender_Equality_in_the_Church-2014.pdf

I showed them to my wife this morning and she just kind of chuckled and said she isn't surprised about what is on them (and was not offended).  The only thing she did mention was that the continual use of the figure showing man at the head and women at the feet could be offensive to some, but she understands there are scriptural references supporting that teaching.

I see it as expressing that genders are not equal, but that they are equally valued in the church. 

Any thoughts?  

Fascinating, thanks for sharing.  Its apparent that church leaders are at least thinking about these issues. 

First, they need to change the titles on the slides to "Gender Inequality in the Church", because there is no equality from any objective measurement.  

Second, I find those scriptures on the slides are used as excuses for the lack of equality.  Its sad to proof-text scripture to justify a practice that is obviously unequal.  Because all body parts are needed, doesn't make them equal.  Individuals can survive while having their feet amputated, but you can't survive without a head. 

The scriptures contain all of the cultural baggage throughout history and the vast majority of that baggage has women at an unequal status in society.  What we really need is modern revelation that runs counter to scripture and asserts the equality of women in practice in the church.  We don't have equality in society today, we have a long ways to go to get there.  What's even more frustrating is how woefully behind the church is from society.  Lots of change is needed on this topic.  

[Pete Ahlstrom]

4 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

https://www.ksl.com/?sid=45541600&nid=148

New study ranks Utah worst state in nation for women’s equality. I wonder if there is a correlation to the church? Not saying there is. 

Of course we shouldn't automatically pin this on the church.  Equality is such an ambiguous term and very subjective.  Perhaps the study was conducted by some antis?  Certainly we should look there first instead of trying to apply what the study actually says?

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, ALarson said:

I hadn't seen this other leak, maybe start another thread for them?

These could be another interesting discussion.

It would be an interesting discussion..as for the list ...I have real problems with no. six.

[Pete Ahlstrom]

3 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Fascinating, thanks for sharing.  Its apparent that church leaders are at least thinking about these issues. 

First, they need to change the titles on the slides to "Gender Inequality in the Church", because there is no equality from any objective measurement.  

Second, I find those scriptures on the slides are used as excuses for the lack of equality.  Its sad to proof-text scripture to justify a practice that is obviously unequal.  Because all body parts are needed, doesn't make them equal.  Individuals can survive while having their feet amputated, but you can't survive without a head. 

The scriptures contain all of the cultural baggage throughout history and the vast majority of that baggage has women at an unequal status in society.  What we really need is modern revelation that runs counter to scripture and asserts the equality of women in practice in the church.  We don't have equality in society today, we have a long ways to go to get there.  What's even more frustrating is how woefully behind the church is from society.  Lots of change is needed on this topic.  

Well, at least women aren't viewed as property any more.  There is that.  Also, this is a societal problem even though the church isn't leading on this and is probably dragging its feet.  There just isn't enough agitation for change to occur.

[Jeanne]

1 minute ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

Well, at least women aren't viewed as property any more.  There is that.  Also, this is a societal problem even though the church isn't leading on this and is probably dragging its feet.  There just isn't enough agitation for change to occur.

It always helps to be more than a ten cow wife.

[Tacenda]

9 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

It would be an interesting discussion..as for the list ...I have real problems with no. six.

Elder Ronald A. Rasband – Opening Remarks He offered his appreciation to all the wives who serve at the sides of their husbands in saving souls, those of their missionaries and converts D&C 25: Speaking to the sisters as the Lord spoke to Emma Smith Verse 5: to be a comfort and a blessing to him Verse 7: to expound scriptures and to preach the gospel Verse 9: your husband’s mission keys to preside over your mission Verse 10: to seek for things of a better world Verse 13: lift up thy heart and rejoice and keep your covenants Verse 15: thou shalt receive a crown of righteousness as we keep the commandments You need to be a comfort and a soulmate to your husbands, ask him how you can help him in his challenges Be their lover, their helpmate, their romantic partner, their constant support Thank you for being the Lord’s consecrated servants Pres. Monson would say to each of you that he loves you and thank you for your service, your willingness to serve May the Lord bless your children and grandchildren as you tend to the affairs of His children. May He bless you with power at the pulpit. May the spirit of the Lord be with you this afternoon.

Me: This kind of took me back a little. Why are the women told to be a romantic partner and to be their lover. Why are the women being told this? Unsure what it has to do with missionary work. 

[Pete Ahlstrom]

4 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Elder Ronald A. Rasband – Opening Remarks He offered his appreciation to all the wives who serve at the sides of their husbands in saving souls, those of their missionaries and converts D&C 25: Speaking to the sisters as the Lord spoke to Emma Smith Verse 5: to be a comfort and a blessing to him Verse 7: to expound scriptures and to preach the gospel Verse 9: your husband’s mission keys to preside over your mission Verse 10: to seek for things of a better world Verse 13: lift up thy heart and rejoice and keep your covenants Verse 15: thou shalt receive a crown of righteousness as we keep the commandments You need to be a comfort and a soulmate to your husbands, ask him how you can help him in his challenges Be their lover, their helpmate, their romantic partner, their constant support Thank you for being the Lord’s consecrated servants Pres. Monson would say to each of you that he loves you and thank you for your service, your willingness to serve May the Lord bless your children and grandchildren as you tend to the affairs of His children. May He bless you with power at the pulpit. May the spirit of the Lord be with you this afternoon.

Me: This kind of took me back a little. Why are the women told to be a romantic partner and to be their lover. Why are the women being told this? Unsure what it has to do with missionary work. 

This is the role carved out for women: Be in the background thinking of something romantic to do when your leader husband comes home from doing the really important stuff.

[hope_for_things]

21 minutes ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

Well, at least women aren't viewed as property any more.  There is that.  Also, this is a societal problem even though the church isn't leading on this and is probably dragging its feet.  There just isn't enough agitation for change to occur.

I'm saddened by what I see.  I know I'm guilty of it too, but the inequality is pervasive in conservative circles certainly, but in progressive circles as well.  The attitudes, stereotypes and default operating position from which all interactions take place are all quite sexist.  I hope for a future where many of these traditions have changed, and where people look back on our time as quite primitive on this subject, similarly to how we look back on other traditions as primitive.  We have a lot of growing up to do.  

[hope_for_things]

17 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Elder Ronald A. Rasband – Opening Remarks He offered his appreciation to all the wives who serve at the sides of their husbands in saving souls, those of their missionaries and converts D&C 25: Speaking to the sisters as the Lord spoke to Emma Smith Verse 5: to be a comfort and a blessing to him Verse 7: to expound scriptures and to preach the gospel Verse 9: your husband’s mission keys to preside over your mission Verse 10: to seek for things of a better world Verse 13: lift up thy heart and rejoice and keep your covenants Verse 15: thou shalt receive a crown of righteousness as we keep the commandments You need to be a comfort and a soulmate to your husbands, ask him how you can help him in his challenges Be their lover, their helpmate, their romantic partner, their constant support Thank you for being the Lord’s consecrated servants Pres. Monson would say to each of you that he loves you and thank you for your service, your willingness to serve May the Lord bless your children and grandchildren as you tend to the affairs of His children. May He bless you with power at the pulpit. May the spirit of the Lord be with you this afternoon.

Me: This kind of took me back a little. Why are the women told to be a romantic partner and to be their lover. Why are the women being told this? Unsure what it has to do with missionary work. 

Its pretty disgusting language that is used, yet most people don't blink an eye at it.  Turn all of these statements around, reverse the gender of the individuals in these scriptures/commentary and everything starts to jump out the page as really messed up thinking. 

[Jeanne]

20 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Elder Ronald A. Rasband – Opening Remarks He offered his appreciation to all the wives who serve at the sides of their husbands in saving souls, those of their missionaries and converts D&C 25: Speaking to the sisters as the Lord spoke to Emma Smith Verse 5: to be a comfort and a blessing to him Verse 7: to expound scriptures and to preach the gospel Verse 9: your husband’s mission keys to preside over your mission Verse 10: to seek for things of a better world Verse 13: lift up thy heart and rejoice and keep your covenants Verse 15: thou shalt receive a crown of righteousness as we keep the commandments You need to be a comfort and a soulmate to your husbands, ask him how you can help him in his challenges Be their lover, their helpmate, their romantic partner, their constant support Thank you for being the Lord’s consecrated servants Pres. Monson would say to each of you that he loves you and thank you for your service, your willingness to serve May the Lord bless your children and grandchildren as you tend to the affairs of His children. May He bless you with power at the pulpit. May the spirit of the Lord be with you this afternoon.

Me: This kind of took me back a little. Why are the women told to be a romantic partner and to be their lover. Why are the women being told this? Unsure what it has to do with missionary work. 

Good questions Tacenda...and yet it is said that women are the most spiritual....why would they be quieted for sharing those things that priesthood holders can do?  Surely men should be stressed to be those romantic people..(maybe they are..I don't know)...and help more to attend to the children.  This is where I find it most difficult to find equality and partnership within family life and the gospel itself.  I am assuming many LDS women receive a solace in the Temple...I have not been there..but I know women who feel it is demeaning.  After all these years of asking questions..I still wonder what keeps a woman stalwart in the LDS church. 

[juliann]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Hmmm. Uncharacteristically you take no issue with Scott's "catty" comment? Interesting

How petty can you get. Good grief. Here is what is interesting. I respect Scott and appreciate his perspective as a believer. Plus he has a darn interesting job. 

[clarkgoble]

1 hour ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

You understand my point, don't you?  Some like to use the "anti-mormon" label as a show stopper.  Why don't we engage on the issues and what is actually said instead of resorting to labels?  If you think secularists are guilty of this too, then maybe you shouldn't play along as well?

While in a strong sense I think all that matters are the arguments people make, in an other sense I think it's perfectly understandable that people dismiss out of hand positions from people with fundamentally different premises. So I honestly don't have huge problems with either believers or secularists doing this. My point just is that we shouldn't have a double standard. If secularists can do it, surely it's not wrong for believers to do the same thing. Now for intellectual debate there's a whole different set of rules of course.

[clarkgoble]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

https://www.ksl.com/?sid=45541600&nid=148

New study ranks Utah worst state in nation for women’s equality. I wonder if there is a correlation to the church? Not saying there is. 

It certainly is.

 

Although I'd note that when you look at the study's criteria they're clearly valuing certain choices above others. i.e. you're not equal if you have the same opportunitites, you're only equal if you make the same choices. Now I'm sympathetic to those who say the reason we make particular choices is strongly affected by the expectations of our society. So if there isn't a strong expectation to get a job, then that can make it harder to get a job. I'm just suggesting though that by only measuring equality when particular choices are made, there's a strong bias to the study. A feminist equality that claims to value stay at home moms on par with high paying career track women and then doesn't really treat them as of equal worth is problematic.

I say that while simultaneously thinking that Utah actually does put far too many roadblocks for women's careers and that women aren't given sufficient chance in political office (although it is getting much better of late).

Edited September 25, 2017 by clarkgoble

[Duncan]

17 hours ago, bluebell said:

I remember going to a regional conference where my mission president, another mission president, and Elder L. Tom Perry were the main speakers.  The other mission president sounded just like general authorities do when they give talks at conference and the effect was kind of off-putting because it didn't sound natural.  Tone matters.

Speaking of tones....

 

[bluebell]

30 minutes ago, Duncan said:

Speaking of tones....

 

 

[why me]

I  don't quite get it. Just  a few slides. I see no big deal about this. Where were these sides shown? Were they shown at all. Was it the opinion of one man? And this is mormonleaks? What exactly is there to talk about? Can I create slides about church equality, put a name to them and send them to mormonleaks? It is obvious that whoever gave these four slides wanted to disparage the lds church. And they are from 2014.

Edited September 25, 2017 by why me

[HappyJackWagon]

2 hours ago, juliann said:

How petty can you get. Good grief. Here is what is interesting. I respect Scott and appreciate his perspective as a believer. Plus he has a darn interesting job. 

I don't think it's petty but you're welcome to that belief. You rip people apart when they make statements like that. But not Scott. That's fine but the next time you lay into someone for an ineloquent or borderline-sexist comment we'll remember that you're only offended if the improper statement is made by someone other than your buddies.