Brigham Young?

[Bob Crockett]

13 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

 

I did point out one where Brigham is quoted as saying that the Godhead consisted of God the Father, Jesus the Christ, and Michael the Archangel. That does not find any congruence with LDS theology that I am aware of. I believe there may have been a problem transcription process there.

 

Glenn

Just my two cents.  If one understands that godhood is a patriarchy, it isn't hard to see the truth of your statement above.

[JLHPROF]

5 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

That is a question for which I have no answer. That is the first and only time I have heard of Adam possibly being part of the actual Godhead. There is no mention of the role the Holy Ghost played in the pre-existence. His role there as a testator was not needed because we were all in the presence of God. It is an intriguing question, i.e what was the Holy Ghost's role before the fall?

Glenn

Check the temple.
There are three beings involved in the creation.  The same three Brigham describes.
The personage of the Holy Ghost is nowhere to be found.

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Did you pray to know if Brigham taught Adam/God? We pray to confirm true doctrines, if we don't get an answer it means the teaching is not true. You won't get an answer because Adam/God is false doctrine, but that doesn't mean Young taught Adam/God.

You pray to know the truth of all things.  So you could pray to know if Adam-God is a true doctrine or not.

You don't need to pray to know IF Brigham taught Adam God.  It's historical fact and in multiple records - including but not limited to the Journals of Discourses, Deseret News, Wilford Woodruff's journal, the Manuscript History, the L. John Nuttall Diary, the First Presidency minutes, and the temple records.
There are numerous books dealing with this teaching, both doctrinally and historically.  Brigham is on record as threatening to box Orson Pratt's ears until he accepted it.  In fact Orson Pratt was nearly disfellowshipped from the Church for his public denials of Adam-God.
In other words, the fact that Brigham taught this has been established in far more than 2 witnesses, so the truth has been established on this issue.

It is one thing to claim Adam-God is false.  But it is positively foolish to claim Brigham never taught it.
Your denial that he even taught it is simply ignorant.
 

[JLHPROF]

16 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

I have searched the Journal of Discourses at length looking for an indication that Brigham Young taught that Adam and Eve did not die and go to spirit prison. I am not sure about the Spirit Prison part, but here are the two references that I have found pertaining to Adam and Eve.

"For when Adam and Eve got through with their work in this earth, they did not lay their bodies down in the dust but returned to the spirit world, from whence they came."
Brigham Young - L. John Nuttall diary.

As taught to members for decades in the temple.

[JLHPROF]

Quote

First is this one:

Now to the facts in the case; all the difference between Jesus Christ and any other man that ever lived on the
earth, from the days of Adam until now, is simply this, the Father, after He had once been in the flesh, and
lived as we live, obtained His exaltation, attained to thrones, gained the ascendancy over principalities and
powers, and had the knowledge and power to create − to bring forth and organize the elements upon natural
principles. This He did after His ascension, or His glory, or His eternity, and was actually classed with the
Gods, with the beings who create, with those who have kept the celestial law while in the flesh, and again
obtained their bodies. Then He was prepared to commence the work of creation, as the Scriptures teach. It is
all here in the Bible; I am not telling you a word but what is contained in that book.
Things were first created spiritually; the Father actually begat the spirits, and they were brought forth and
lived with Him. Then He commenced the work of creating earthly tabernacles, precisely as He had been
created in this flesh himself, by partaking of the course material that was organized and composed this earth,
until His system was charged with it, consequently the tabernacles of His children were organized from the
coarse materials of this earth.
JD 4:218, Brigham Young, February 8, 1857
********************************************************************************************************

Next  we have this one:

After men have got their exaltations and their crowns − have become Gods, even the sons of God − are made
Kings of kings and Lords of lords, they have the power then of propagating their species in spirit; and that is
the first of their operations with regard to organizing a world. Power is then given to them to organize the
elements, and then commence the organization of tabernacles. How can they do it? Have they to go to that
earth? Yes, an Adam will have to go there, and he cannot do without Eve; he must have Eve to commence the
work of generation, and they will go into the garden, and continue to eat and drink of the fruits of the
corporeal world, until this grosser matter is diffused sufficiently through their celestial bodies to enable them,
according to the established laws, to produce mortal tabernacles for their spiritual children.
This is a key for you. The faithful will become Gods, even the sons of God; but this does not overthrow the
idea that we have a father. Adam is my father; (this I will explain to you at some future time;) but it does not
prove that he is not my father, if I became a God: it does not prove that I have not a father.
JD 6:275 − p.276, Brigham Young, August 28, 1852

The first one lays out what Brigham seemingly believed about how Adam and Eve came to obtain their earthly but immortal tabernacles. This particular viewpoint is corroborated pretty well by Willford Woodruff in his journal notes on the April 9 1852 Sermon which started the whole thing.
The next one lays out what Brigham seemingly believed about how those who obtain the fullness of the celestial glory will also become Adams to... to produce their own immortal offspring in a garden to become the first man and woman, an Adam and Eve to another world.

16 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

Quote

These are two sides of the same coin, not a reference to two kinds of Adam.

And your scriptural reference for this is?

 

 

The first quote states that the Father (Adam) created mortal bodies by partaking of mortal elements.
The second quote states that as future Gods we will become Adams (and Eves) and do the same.

How exactly does this describe two kinds of Adams?  One is God doing it for our earth.  The other is us as Gods doing it for the next earth when we reach that level.
One kind of Adam.

 

 

[HappyJackWagon]

3 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

 

1-God allowed Satan to change the 116 pages. If Satan did it once why wouldn't he do it again? 

2-Impossible. He could tell the difference because he was an expert on revelation, he was a prophet. I only expect that from recent converts or less active members. 

3-Did you pray to know if Brigham taught Adam/God? We pray to confirm true doctrines, if we don't get an answer it means the teaching is not true. You won't get an answer because Adam/God is false doctrine, but that doesn't mean Young taught Adam/God. 

1-CFR that Satan changed the 116 pages. IIRC Joseph claimed that he couldn't re-translate those pages because of the risk that antagonists would change the document and then say something like "see, Joseph couldn't really translate the same way twice". Your claim that Satan changed the 116 pages is quite juvenile and I don't recall ever even seeing the claim by anyone in the church.

2-Please take a moment to consider how your logic is circular. BY was a prophet because he was an expert on revelation. We know he is an expert on revelation because he was the prophet. Perhaps it's time to think a little more logically about this.

3-I don't need to pray for God to reveal a fact that has significant historical evidence. JLHPROF and others have already pointed this out to you many times in this thread but you seem determined to ignore it. BY taught Adam/God theory. Your only defense against this evidence is that God allowed Satan to change the JoD just like he did the 116 pages (for which I've issued the CFR).  I agree with you that Adam/God is not a true doctrine, but that doesn't prove that BY didn't teach it. Your logic there is also circular.

You really need to allow yourself to consider the fallacy of your position.

[clarkgoble]

6 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

Not if Brigham was referring to God the Father when he was talking about Adam or Father Adam in that instance. We have the problem of Brigham's words being filtered through the lens of his recorders, chiefly George D. Watt who did make some significant editorial changes to the words Brigham said.

While the problems of Watt are well known, I don't think that can account for everything. Further the relative consistency of the doctrine not only by Brigham but others suggests a fair degree of clarity. More significantly I think the nature of the heated debate between Orson Pratt and his supporters and Brigham Young and his supporters helps clarify issues. (For those interested, while it's hardly exhaustive, Conflict in the Quorum, gets at most of these issues)

There are of course complexities to all this. In particular William Law's statement in the Nauvoo Expositor about the liability of God falling with his creation is significant in pushing elements back to Nauvoo. 

[talltimber]

6 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

Not if Brigham was referring to God the Father when he was talking about Adam or Father Adam in that instance. We have the problem of Brigham's words being filtered through the lens of his recorders, chiefly George D. Watt who did make some significant editorial changes to the words Brigham said.

Glenn

As noted by others, Brigham Young had years and years to correct any problem in his discourses.  He would not even have had to read it himself, others could have told him about what was recorded.  

This is how it makes sense to me:

There is no reason to believe President Young believed Adam was Elohim.  He regularly equated Adam to Michael.  According to Young, Michael was a resurrected joint-heir (and the father or our spirits) with his resurrected Savior Jehovah from a previous earth.  

Since we are the seed of Adam/Michael we can also gain exaltation as Joint Heirs and become Michaels with our Savior Jesus (our Jehovah).  Since we have the potential to become like Michael, but not like Jehovah, then Michael is OUR Father and God-- we can become like him, even as Jesus has become like His Father and God Jehovah.

"What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence. My Father worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to my Father, so that he may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I [Christ] will take his place, and thereby become exalted myself. So that Jesus treads in the tracks of his Father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all his children.” [Teachings, 347f.]  

The above quote clearly indicates that the Father of Jesus was a Savior on a previous earth.

"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto MY Father, and YOUR Father; and to MY God, and YOUR God."   --John 20:17

This verse supports the understanding that the Celestial lineage of Jesus is not the same as the Celestial lineage of the seed of Adam.   MY Father and God (Jehovah) is not the same as YOUR Father and God (Michael).

So the Adam-God teachings of President Young are simply a further understanding of the New Testament "Joint Heirs with Christ" doctrine.

 

 

[JLHPROF]

22 minutes ago, talltimber said:

As noted by others, Brigham Young had years and years to correct any problem in his discourses.  He would not even have had to read it himself, others could have told him about what was recorded.

This is how it makes sense to me:

There is no reason to believe President Young believed Adam was Elohim.  He regularly equated Adam to Michael.  According to Young, Michael was a resurrected joint-heir (and the father or our spirits) with his resurrected Savior Jehovah from a previous earth.

Since we are the seed of Adam/Michael we can also gain exaltation as Joint Heirs and become Michaels with our Savior Jesus (our Jehovah).  Since we have the potential to become like Michael, but not like Jehovah, then Michael is OUR Father and God-- we can become like him, even as Jesus has become like His Father and God Jehovah.

"What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence. My Father worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to my Father, so that he may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I [Christ] will take his place, and thereby become exalted myself. So that Jesus treads in the tracks of his Father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all his children.” [Teachings, 347f.]  

The above quote clearly indicates that the Father of Jesus was a Savior on a previous earth.

"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto MY Father, and YOUR Father; and to MY God, and YOUR God."   --John 20:17

This verse supports the understanding that the Celestial lineage of Jesus is not the same as the Celestial lineage of the seed of Adam.   MY Father and God (Jehovah) is not the same as YOUR Father and God (Michael).

So the Adam-God teachings of President Young are simply a further understanding of the New Testament "Joint Heirs with Christ" doctrine.

 

 

You are saying that Jesus had a different father than we did.
That goes against President Young's teachings (not to mention scripture and the other prophets).   That scripture in John serves the purpose of making the connection between us and Christ yet you are using it to create a division by a misread.
Brigham Young taught repeatedly that Adam was the father of our spirits and bodies AND the father of Jesus' sprit and body.  Jehovah was NOT the father of Christ as Adam was our Father.

Jehovah of the OT was one of two possibilities - either Adam's Savior from the previous creation who inherited him becoming his Father (as Christ will us)
OR  Adam's Heavenly Father from a previous creation (if Adam was the Savior of his world).

And which one it is has not been conclusively stated.  There are references for both. 
Additionally the problematic doctrine taught by the Church today that Jehovah in the OT was the premortal Christ doesn't really work either and wasn't Church doctrine until nearly the turn of the 20th century.  Jehovah in the OT, whoever he was, had a physical body and the authority to create spirits.

This is the biggest problem with the Adam-God doctrine I have as one who believes in it.
People aren't content to accept it as taught by the prophet.  They speculate it into strange theories.

What Brigham taught repeatedly and was taught to members in the temple makes perfect sense.  All the wild theories and twisting and extending of his doctrine beyond what is revealed is the biggest reason I don't blame the Church one bit for putting a stop to teaching the doctrine.  Some days I'm inclined to agree with them.

Edited September 7, 2017 by JLHPROF

[CV75]

54 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

What Brigham taught repeatedly and was taught to members in the temple makes perfect sense.  All the wild theories and twisting and extending of his doctrine beyond what is revealed is the biggest reason I don't blame the Church one bit for putting a stop to teaching the doctrine.  Some days I'm inclined to agree with them.

If the lecture at the veil is the most express distillation of Brigham Young’s teaching, then the following points need to be considered (from Elder L. John Nutall’s journal); [bracketed annotations mine]:

In the creation the Gods entered into an agreement about forming this earth, and putting Michael or Adam upon it. These things of which I have been speaking are what are termed the mysteries of godliness but they will enable you to understand the expression of Jesus, made while in jerusalem, "This is life eternal that they might know thee, the ony true God and jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." We [as spirits] were once acquainted with the Gods and lived with them, but we had the privilege of taking upon us flesh that the spirit might have a house to dwell in. We did so and forgot all, and came into the world not recollecting anything of which we had previously learned. We have heard a great deal about Adam and Eve, how they were formed and etc. Some think he was made like an adobe and the Lord breathed into him the breath of life, for we read "from dust thou art and unto dust shalt thou return." Well he was made of the dust of the earth but not of this [telestial] earth. He was made just the same way you and I are made but on another earth [i.e. a non-telestial earth in the presence of God]. Adam was an immortal [terrestrial] being when he came on [the terrestrial or pre-Fall template for] this earth; He had lived on an [terrestrial] earth similar to ours; he had received the Priesthood and the keys thereof, and had been faithful in all things and gained his resurrection and his exaltation, and was crowned with glory, immortality and eternal lives, and was numbered with the Gods for such he became through his faithfulness [i.e., he had his calling and election made sure by the Holy Spirit of Promise], and had begotten [adopted in the pre-mortal spirit world, for the purpose of providing them physical bodies] all the spirit that was to come to this earth. And Eve our common mother who is the mother of all living bore [adopted] those [same] spirits in the celestial world [he pre-mortal spirit world in the presence of God]. And when [the spiritual and then terrestrial template for] this earth was organized by Elohim, Jehovah and Michael, who is Adam our common father [for the second estate], Adam and Eve had the privilege to continue the work of progression, consequently came to [the terrestrial template for] this earth and commenced the great work of forming tabernacles for those spirits to dwell in, and when Adam and those that assisted him had completed this kingdom our earth[,] he came to it, and slept and forgot all and became like an infant child. It is said by Moses the historian that the Lord caused a deep sleep to come upon Adam and took from his side a rib and formed the woman that Adam called Eve—This should be interpreted that the Man Adam like all other men had the seed within him to propagate his species, but not the Woman; she conceives the seed but she does not produce it; consequently she was taken from the side or bowels of her father. This explains the mystery of Moses' dark sayings in regard to Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve when they were placed on this earth were immortal [terrestrial] beings with flesh, bones and sinews. But upon partaking of the fruits of the earth while in the garden and cultivating the ground their bodies became changed from immortal to mortal beings with the blood coursing through their veins as the action of life—Adam was not under transgression until after he partook of the forbidden fruit; this was necessary that they might be together, that man might be. The woman was found in transgression not the man—Now in the law of Sacrifice we have the promise of a Savior and Man had the privilege and showed forth his obedience by offering of the first fruits of the earth and the firstlings of the flocks; this as a showing that Jesus would come and shed his blood.... Father Adam's oldest [adopted from Heavenly Father for mortal generation through the daughters of Eve, and ultimately through Mary] son (Jesus the Saviour) who is the heir of the family, is father Adam's first begotten [adopted] in the spirit world, who according to the flesh is the only begotten as it is written. (In his divinity he having gone back into the spirit world [i.e. the presence of God], and came in the spirit [another way of saying not directly, but that Jesus was to be Adam’s offspring through his descendant Mary] to Mary and she conceived, for when Adam and Eve got through with their work in this earth, they did not lay their bodies down in the dust, but returned to the spirit world [i.e. the presence of God] from whence they came.)

In summary:

Adam and Eve were terrestrial children of God who had received their calling and election. Heavenly Father had them adopt His spirit children for the purpose of begetting us in a telestial world. This included Jesus as the “oldest.” Adam and Eve came to a terrestrial earth, brought forth the Fall, and ultimately commenced to begin the process whereby their adopted spirit children obtained physical bodies. Adam is Jesus’ father the same way he is our father (“in spirit”), or as our first, but not direct, progenitor in the flesh. Adam and Eve returned to the presence of God to realize their calling and election with us sealed to them. Adam is our only God in that narrow respect.

[JLHPROF]

19 minutes ago, CV75 said:

If the lecture at the veil is the most express distillation of Brigham Young’s teaching, then the following points need to be considered (from Elder L. John Nutall’s journal); [bracketed annotations mine]:

 

In the creation the Gods entered into an agreement about forming this earth, and putting Michael or Adam upon it. These things of which I have been speaking are what are termed the mysteries of godliness but they will enable you to understand the expression of Jesus, made while in jerusalem, "This is life eternal that they might know thee, the ony true God and jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." We [as spirits] were once acquainted with the Gods and lived with them, but we had the privilege of taking upon us flesh that the spirit might have a house to dwell in. We did so and forgot all, and came into the world not recollecting anything of which we had previously learned. We have heard a great deal about Adam and Eve, how they were formed and etc. Some think he was made like an adobe and the Lord breathed into him the breath of life, for we read "from dust thou art and unto dust shalt thou return." Well he was made of the dust of the earth but not of this [telestial] earth. He was made just the same way you and I are made but on another earth [i.e. a non-telestial earth in the presence of God]. Adam was an immortal [terrestrial] being when he came on [the terrestrial or pre-Fall template for] this earth; He had lived on an [terrestrial, later celestial] earth similar to ours; he had received the Priesthood and the keys thereof, and had been faithful in all things and gained his resurrection and his exaltation, and was crowned with glory, immortality and eternal lives, and was numbered with the Gods for such he became through his faithfulness [i.e., he had his calling and election made sure by the Holy Spirit of Promise], and had begotten [adopted in the pre-mortal spirit world, for the purpose of providing them physical bodies] all the spirit that was to come to this earth. And Eve our common mother who is the mother of all living bore [adopted] those [same] spirits in the celestial world [he pre-mortal spirit world in the presence of God]. And when [the spiritual and then terrestrial template for] this earth was organized by Elohim, Jehovah and Michael, who is Adam our common father [for the second estate], Adam and Eve had the privilege to continue the work of progression, consequently came to [the terrestrial template for] this earth and commenced the great work of forming tabernacles for those spirits to dwell in, and when Adam and those that assisted him had completed this kingdom our earth[,] he came to it, and slept and forgot all and became like an infant child. It is said by Moses the historian that the Lord caused a deep sleep to come upon Adam and took from his side a rib and formed the woman that Adam called Eve—This should be interpreted that the Man Adam like all other men had the seed within him to propagate his species, but not the Woman; she conceives the seed but she does not produce it; consequently she was taken from the side or bowels of her father. This explains the mystery of Moses' dark sayings in regard to Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve when they were placed on this earth were immortal [terrestrial] beings with flesh, bones and sinews. But upon partaking of the fruits of the earth while in the garden and cultivating the ground their bodies became changed from immortal to mortal beings with the blood coursing through their veins as the action of life—Adam was not under transgression until after he partook of the forbidden fruit; this was necessary that they might be together, that man might be. The woman was found in transgression not the man—Now in the law of Sacrifice we have the promise of a Savior and Man had the privilege and showed forth his obedience by offering of the first fruits of the earth and the firstlings of the flocks; this as a showing that Jesus would come and shed his blood.... Father Adam's oldest [adopted from Heavenly Father for mortal generation through the daughters of Eve, and ultimately through Mary] son (Jesus the Saviour) who is the heir of the family, is father Adam's first begotten [adopted] in the spirit world, who according to the flesh is the only begotten as it is written. (In his divinity he having gone back into the spirit world [i.e. the presence of God], and came in the spirit [another way of saying not directly, but that Jesus was to be Adam’s offspring through his descendant Mary] to Mary and she conceived, for when Adam and Eve got through with their work in this earth, they did not lay their bodies down in the dust, but returned to the spirit world [i.e. the presence of God] from whence they came.)

 

In summary:

 

Adam and Eve were terrestrial children of God who had received their calling and election. Heavenly Father had them adopt His spirit children for the purpose of begetting us in a telestial world. This included Jesus as the “oldest.” Adam and Eve came to a terrestrial earth, brought forth the Fall, and ultimately commenced to begin the process whereby their adopted spirit children obtained physical bodies. Adam is Jesus’ father the same way he is our father (“in spirit”), or as our first, but not direct, progenitor in the flesh. Adam and Eve returned to the presence of God to realize their calling and election with us sealed to them. Adam is our only God in that narrow respect.

 

Your brackets change the meaning of a very plain teaching.  I think you are more knowledgeable than to need to manipulate a text like that.
This theory of yours falls into what I already said.  "People aren't content to accept it as taught by the prophet.  They speculate it into strange theories."

Anyone can do this.

• In the creation the Gods entered into an agreement about forming this earth, and putting Michael or Adam upon it. These things of which I have been speaking are what are termed the mysteries of godliness but they will enable you to understand the expression of Jesus, made while in jerusalem, "This is life eternal that they might know thee, the ony true God and jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." We [as spirits] were once acquainted with the Gods and lived with them, but we had the privilege of taking upon us flesh that the spirit might have a house to dwell in. We did so and forgot all, and came into the world not recollecting anything of which we had previously learned. We have heard a great deal about Adam and Eve, how they were formed and etc. Some think he was made like an adobe and the Lord breathed into him the breath of life, for we read "from dust thou art and unto dust shalt thou return." Well he was made of the dust of the earth but not of this [telestial] earth. He was made just the same way you and I are made but on another earth [i.e. a previously Celestialized world one of God's kingdoms]. Adam was an immortal [celestial] being when he came on [the terrestrial or pre-Fall template for] this earth; He had lived on an [terrestrial, then celestial] earth similar to ours; he had received the Priesthood and the keys thereof, and had been faithful in all things and gained his resurrection and his exaltation,  and was crowned with glory, immortality and eternal lives, and was numbered with the Gods [and was therefore Celestial] for such he became through his faithfulness [i.e., he had his calling and election made sure by the Holy Spirit of Promise], and had begotten [conceived with his wives] all the spirit that was to come to this earth. And Eve our common mother who is the mother of all living bore [gave birth to] those [same] spirits in the celestial world. And when [the spiritual and then terrestrial template for] this earth was organized by Elohim, Jehovah and Michael, who is Adam our common father [our Heavenly Father], Adam and Eve had the privilege to continue the work of progression, consequently came to [the terrestrial template for] this earth and commenced the great work of forming tabernacles for those spirits to dwell in, and when Adam and those that assisted him had completed this kingdom our earth[,] he came to it, and slept and forgot all and became like an infant child. It is said by Moses the historian that the Lord caused a deep sleep to come upon Adam and took from his side a rib and formed the woman that Adam called Eve—This should be interpreted that the Man Adam like all other men had the seed within him to propagate his species, but not the Woman; she conceives the seed but she does not produce it; consequently she was taken from the side or bowels of her father. This explains the mystery of Moses' dark sayings in regard to Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve when they were placed on this earth were immortal [Celestial] beings with flesh, bones and sinews. But upon partaking of the fruits of the earth while in the garden and cultivating the ground their bodies became changed from immortal to mortal beings with the blood coursing through their veins as the action of life—Adam was not under transgression until after he partook of the forbidden fruit; this was necessary that they might be together, that man might be. The woman was found in transgression not the man—Now in the law of Sacrifice we have the promise of a Savior and Man had the privilege and showed forth his obedience by offering of the first fruits of the earth and the firstlings of the flocks; this as a showing that Jesus would come and shed his blood.... Father Adam's oldest [spiritually born to Mother Even, and ultimately physically through Mary] son (Jesus the Saviour) who is the heir of the family, is father Adam's first begotten [conceived] in the spirit world, who according to the flesh is the only begotten as it is written. (In his divinity he having gone back into the spirit world [i.e. the presence of God], and came in the spirit [literally Adam's offspring physically and spiritually] to Mary and she conceived, for when Adam and Eve got through with their work in this earth, they did not lay their bodies down in the dust, but returned to the spirit world [i.e. the presence of God] from whence they came.)

See.

Edited September 7, 2017 by JLHPROF

[talltimber]

57 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

"Brigham Young taught repeatedly that Adam was the father of our spirits and bodies AND the father of Jesus' sprit and body."

What I was concerned about when reading President Young's Adam-God teachings was reconciling them with the scriptures we already have.   And that has obviously also been the issue about these teachings with the church leadership and many members.   

I honestly could never completely reconcile the A/G teachings of President Young with the scriptures.  Why would that be a cop out?   It would be a cop out if I tried to force an interpretation of them that reconciled them. 

So when I read the revelations in the Second Book of Commandments on the matter, which I COULD reconcile with the previous scriptures, then I accepted that the Lord was resolving the matter with further revelation as promised in John 16:12-13; D&C 121:26-33   AoF 9 and other scriptures.  

These further revelations showed that there was errors in what President Young was saying, but he was in the main correct.   What may seem like a strange theory to you is as clear as can be to me.

 

 

 

[JLHPROF]

2 minutes ago, talltimber said:

when I read the revelations in the Second Book of Commandments on the matter

Ah, that explains it.

[CV75]

19 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Your brackets change the meaning of a very plain teaching.  I think you are more knowledgeable than to need to manipulate a text like that.
This theory of yours falls into what I already said.  "People aren't content to accept it as taught by the prophet.  They speculate it into strange theories."

LOL on the contrary, I am fully accepting what he taught, having a better informed context for his meaning (including the terminology used in his day), and I’ll add without resorting to charges of discontent and itching ears against those who adhere to a more traditional view!

19 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

See.

All you've done here is add the traditional view without context.

PS: I'd like to see you address the hard questions:

Posted Tuesday at 07:40 PM

Edited September 7, 2017 by CV75

[JLHPROF]

2 minutes ago, CV75 said:

LOL on the contrary, I am fully accepting what he taught, having a better informed context for his meaning (including the terminology used in his day), and I’ll add without resorting to charges of discontent and itching ears against those who adhere to a different view!

And when was the terminology of his day using begotten to mean adopted instead of conceived?  Or when was a man described as having received his exaltation and Godhood in possession of a Terrestrial body?
Did he fall twice?

[CV75]

13 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

And when was the terminology of his day using begotten to mean adopted instead of conceived?  Or when was a man described as having received his exaltation and Godhood in possession of a Terrestrial body?
Did he fall twice?

Spiritually begotten (Mosiah 5:7); which is formalized as adoption (D&C 84:34) under the Abrahamic covenant (Abraham 2: 9-11).

If we can receive our exaltation in a telestial body, and carry this promise into a translated or terrestrial estate, then that is how. See D&C 88:3-5; 124;124; 132 (various references); 3 Nephi 28: 7-10.

I don't think Adam fell twice. He could very realistically have been born into one terrestrial world, lived well and gained his exaltation (by promise or by foreordination as we all do) and then brought into another terrestrial world (this world's template) and then fell.

[Jeanne]

I know this is kind of an off the wall question..so forgive me.  I am just in and out so much that I don't get to see where the topics have gone.  Busy with Dad!  Anyway, I am wondering from an LDS point of view if anyone here would think that Joseph Smith had he a glance at what was going on in early days in Utah..and the doctrine that was taught..would have been disappointed.  To me, there is some great divides in what Joseph taught and how Brigham interpreted those teachings.  Thanks..

Edited September 7, 2017 by Jeanne

[talltimber]

38 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Ah, that explains it.

Who do you believe was foreordained and given the gift in our day to receive and write "Word of the Lord" oracles?  

Or do you believe the gift was taken back from the earth after it was restored again through the Prophet Joseph?

 

Do you believe these oracles written but never cannonized by the Prophets Brigham, John, Wilford and Lorenzo?  

http://www.2bc.info/pdf/4books.pdf

[jkwilliams]

45 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Ah, that explains it.

I'm afraid to ask what the Second Book of Commandments is. 

[jkwilliams]

Never mind. Looked it up. Fundie fan fic, it seems, though the revelation on the Relief Mine is a nice touch. 

[JLHPROF]

7 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I'm afraid to ask what the Second Book of Commandments is.

 

3 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Never mind. Looked it up. Fundie fan fic, it seems, though the revelation on the Relief Mine is a nice touch.

Could be worse.  Could be Nemelka's stuff...

[jkwilliams]

Just now, JLHPROF said:

Could be worse.  Could be Nemelka's stuff...

I still get angry comments on my blog from one of Nemelka's acolytes for something I posted a couple of years ago. I honestly don't understand the attraction of stuff like that. 

[JLHPROF]

15 minutes ago, talltimber said:

Who do you believe was foreordained and given the gift in our day to receive and write "Word of the Lord" oracles?

Or do you believe the gift was taken back from the earth after it was restored again through the Prophet Joseph?

 

Do you believe these oracles written but never cannonized by the Prophets Brigham, John, Wilford and Lorenzo?

http://www.2bc.info/pdf/4books.pdf

You mean do I believe the uncanonized revelations to God's authorized prophets like Joseph, Brigham, John, Wilford etc?
Yes, I do.

Do I believe the revelations of a sagebrush prophet with no authority or priesthood?
Nope.

[JLHPROF]

Just now, jkwilliams said:

I still get angry comments on my blog from one of Nemelka's acolytes for something I posted a couple of years ago. I honestly don't understand the attraction of stuff like that.

I don't care what he wants to write and publish.
But his future gravestone in the SLC cemetery really rubs me the wrong way.  Insult to Hyrum Smith's memory.

[Calm]

9 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

That is a question for which I have no answer. That is the first and only time I have heard of Adam possibly being part of the actual Godhead. There is no mention of the role the Holy Ghost played in the pre-existence. His role there as a testator was not needed because we were all in the presence of God. It is an intriguing question, i.e what was the Holy Ghost's role before the fall?

Glenn

People get released from callings, if the Godhead is a calling than I can see the possibility of composition changing depending on need.