Brigham Young?

[LittleNipper]

6 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I am not giving Maccabees special status, and did not suggest it.  You even agree "that Maccabees is likely correct in his historic data."  Why then do you have a problem with a Jewish precursor to a Christian rite?  In fact, vicarious rites are part of Jewish tradition, just as intercession of the saints is a Roman Catholic doctrine.  Mormons practice the restored Gospel.  Why are you so fearful of that?

Sorry, that just doesn't do it.  A 30-cubit rope is going to be about 524" long, not nearly enough to go around the circumference of 549.2" (= 31.4 cubits). And, if we used the long cubit of 20.5", the 30 cubit rope would still be a full cubit too short to fit a circumference of 640.6" (31.2 cubits).  Saying that the measures in those days were inexact is not true.  They had precise, marked measuring sticks just as we do today, and speaking of inner or outer dimensions would not give any significant difference.  However, since they did not have pi in those days, the solution may require an approximation in the calculation of the circumference.

You didn't deal with the different volumes for the Bronze Sea in I Kings and I Chronicles.  The problem does have a solution, but you can be sure that fundamentalist evangelicals won't find it.

Well, maybe you should send your children to private/parochial schools.

Your in denial and trying to prop up your lack of faith. The Bible reveals that many of the  Hebrews worshiped the Golden Calf. Do Mormons also practise that ritual since it's recorded in the Bible? I don't think so -- but I maybe wrong (what goes on in their temples is secretive).  Just because something was done doesn't make it Godly. And while I attended Public school both pre and post prayer and scripture reading removal (1963), I sent my child to a Christian school and college.

[JLHPROF]

10 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Do you believe Young said, "which God revealed to me—namely that Adam is our Father and God"? Do you believe Young was capable of telling the difference between the spirit and his own thoughts? 

Yes I believe he said it.
Yes I believe he could tell the difference.
Therefore, I believe that God provided Brigham with a testimony of Adam-God.

[Meerkat]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Yes I believe he said it.
Yes I believe he could tell the difference.
Therefore, I believe that God provided Brigham with a testimony of Adam-God.

It would seem to fit with John 10:34-38 "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?  If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken...." then it seems reasonable to me that Adam would fall into the same category of gods as the rest of us.  We believe that Adam is the one we trace our lineage back to in our genealogy.  Who else is there beyond Adam? He is the only one with whom we have anything to do in that sense.  As far as being the Creator, or a member of the Godhead, I may have missed that tie in from Brigham Young's quotation.  If it is there, I would then put BY's remarks in the category of a mistake or misunderstand that every mortal is bound to make.  Jonah, Noah, David, Solomon, Moses, Joseph Smith all made mistakes that were common to man.  Was Brigham referring to Adam in the sense that he was Elohim?  

[Robert F. Smith]

11 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

Your in denial and trying to prop up your lack of faith. The Bible reveals that many of the  Hebrews worshiped the Golden Calf. Do Mormons also practise that ritual since it's recorded in the Bible? I don't think so -- but I maybe wrong (what goes on in their temples is secretive).  Just because something was done doesn't make it Godly. And while I attended Public school both pre and post prayer and scripture reading removal (1963), I sent my child to a Christian school and college.

Just as I thought:  You have no explanation for the myriad of Bible anachronisms, and you haven't enough faith in Scripture to take it seriously, making siily excuses when you are caught unable to defend the faith.

What takes place in LDS temples is well known and readily available on the internet.

I can also see that you don't respect the Constitution of the United States, which prevents you from imposing your narrow and false beliefs on the rest of America.

[SamuelTheLamanite]

12 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

BY was capable some of the time, sure.  But he was as fallible as any other human, and could substitute his own opinions when he felt strongly.  Paul did the same thing from time to time in his letters.

Are you serious? It is like saying that meteorologists sometimes can't tell the difference between Cat 5 hurricane and a tropical storm.

12 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Once you have read the Bible, you might begin to understand the ways of God.  At present, because you know so little about God and  his prophets, you assume that they never get fired, and you make other false assumptions about them.

You believe God allows prophets to teach false doctrine as revelation for their entire lives?

[JLHPROF]

16 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

You believe God allows prophets to teach false doctrine as revelation for their entire lives?

No.  Yet Brigham taught Adam-God for decades.
What does that tell you?

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Are you serious? It is like saying that meteorologists sometimes can't tell the difference between Cat 5 hurricane and a tropical storm.

You are making Brigham out to be infallible (even though you deny it), and  that is false, apostate doctrine.  As Joseph said: A prophet is only a prophet when speaking as such.  It is on you to seek counsel from the Holy Spirit to determine which is prophetic and which is not.  To shirk your responsibility is bad faith, Sam.

1 hour ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

You believe God allows prophets to teach false doctrine as revelation for their entire lives?

There is no revelation from God teaching Adam-God doctrine.  If I am wrong, all you have to do is cite the D&C section where it resides, and of course you can't.  What sort of lame excuse are you going to find this time, Sam?  Not only do you not know what revelation is, but you also have no idea what a prophet is.  This is a common problem for apostates.  "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables (myths)." (2 Timothy 4:3-4).

[LittleNipper]

3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Just as I thought:  You have no explanation for the myriad of Bible anachronisms, and you haven't enough faith in Scripture to take it seriously, making siily excuses when you are caught unable to defend the faith.

What takes place in LDS temples is well known and readily available on the internet.

I can also see that you don't respect the Constitution of the United States, which prevents you from imposing your narrow and false beliefs on the rest of America.

I just knew your "myriad" was an empty threat. So let's see YOU publish and photograph what goes on in the various ceremonies in your temple and share them here? I can certainly do that with regard to where Christians worship GOD. Hey --- you wish to see some marriage photos --- how about a baptismal? I love baby dedications --- as various friends and family members actually are witnessed to through such events. 

i can see that you don't understand freedom. Freedom doesn't mean that one lives in a vacuum. Freedom is the ability to openly discuss topics that are often difficult without being hampered or threatened with reprisal. Unfortunately, those days are seemingly over, and the government selectively decides what is acceptable and what isn't.  Amendments are no longer considered necessary.... And the ideology of separation of Church and State is convenient as long as it's all about the State. If you don't believe that, just see how long you need to wait for a certificate of occupancy after a fire destroys your congregation's sanctuary.  

Edited September 10, 2017 by LittleNipper

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

There is no revelation from God teaching Adam-God doctrine.

There is no CANONIZED revelation from God teaching Adam-God doctrine.
An important distinction.  According to Brigham, there absolutely was a revelation.

[Robert F. Smith]

54 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

There is no CANONIZED revelation from God teaching Adam-God doctrine.
An important distinction.  According to Brigham, there absolutely was a revelation.

A prophet is only a prophet when speaking as such (Joseph Smith).  Senior Apostle Orson Pratt thought it not a revelation at all and argued vehemently against it.  In order for it to be an authentic revelation, it must be part of the Canon.  Otherwise no one needs to heed it.  As Brigham himself used to say, "no man's opinion is worth a straw."

[SamuelTheLamanite]

3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

No.  Yet Brigham taught Adam-God for decades.
What does that tell you?

That Satan inspired someone to make changes.  

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, LittleNipper said:

I just knew your "myriad" was an empty threat.

I don't make threats, I make promises.  You still haven't dealt with the difficulty with the two different volumes of the Brazen Sea in Kings and Chronicles, and you want more?  I'll be happy to provide a thousand more to you in pdf format, as soon as you admit that you cannot deal adequately with that Brazen Sea. 

1 hour ago, LittleNipper said:

So let's see YOU publish and photograph what goes on in the various ceremonies in your temple and share them here? I can certainly do that with regard to where Christians worship GOD. Hey --- you wish to see some marriage photos --- how about a baptismal? I love baby dedications --- as various friends and family members actually are witnessed to through such events. 

As I said, such rites are readily available on the internet, and you can examine them to your heart's content.  However, this board has strict rules against disclosing LDS temple rites here, and my personal oaths & covenants do not permit me to discuss them.  However, that does in no way prevent a heathen such as you from examining them online.

1 hour ago, LittleNipper said:

i can see that you don't understand freedom. Freedom doesn't mean that one lives in a vacuum. Freedom is the ability to openly discuss topics that are often difficult without being hampered or threatened with reprisal. Unfortunately, those days are seemingly over, and the government selectively decides what is acceptable and what isn't.  Amendments are no longer considered necessary.... And the ideology of separation of Church and State is convenient as long as it's all about the State. If you don't believe that, just see how long you need to wait for a certificate of occupancy after a fire destroys your congregation's sanctuary.  

The totalitarians among us often get upset at Constitutional law.  They don't really like freedom, unless it is freedom for their little group and no one else.  They want to dominate the rest of us, and to follow Satan's coercive plans.

[SamuelTheLamanite]

16 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

BY was capable some of the time, sure.  But he was as fallible as any other human, and could substitute his own opinions when he felt strongly.  Paul did the same thing from time to time in his letters.

Robert, is revelation useless and unreliable? Is revelation indistinguishable from personal opinions? A prophet that doesn't know the difference between revelation and his own thoughts wouldn't be a prophet. 

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You are making Brigham out to be infallible (even though you deny it), and  that is false, apostate doctrine.  As Joseph said: A prophet is only a prophet when speaking as such.  It is on you to seek counsel from the Holy Spirit to determine which is prophetic and which is not.  To shirk your responsibility is bad faith, Sam.

Not infallible. Being an expert doesn't make you perfect. I believe prophets are revelation experts.  I don't expect prophets to be perfect, but I do expect them to  understand the difference between revelation and their own thoughts.  Do you believe revelation is reliable Robert? Can the doctrine of the Church on marriage  be a mistake? 

Edited September 10, 2017 by SamuelTheLamanite

[Robert F. Smith]

4 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Robert, is revelation useless and unreliable? Is revelation indistinguishable from personal opinions? A prophet that doesn't know the difference between revelation and his own thoughts wouldn't be a prophet. 

When are you going to stop shirking your responsibility to seek counsel from the Holy Spirit on what is and what is not revelation?

4 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Not infallible. Being an expert doesn't make you perfect. I believe prophets are revelation experts.  I don't expect prophets to be perfect, but I do expect them to  understand the difference between revelation and their own thoughts.  Do you believe revelation is reliable Robert? Can the doctrine of the Church on marriage  be a mistake? 

For you, being an expert is the same as being infallible, and it is merely a variation on an apostate doctrine -- which attempts to tell Mormons what they believe.  You clearly do not understand Mormonism.

[SamuelTheLamanite]

13 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

When are you going to stop shirking your responsibility to seek counsel from the Holy Spirit on what is and what is not revelation?

If in your view BY sometimes couldn't tell the difference between revelation and non-revelation, then why do you expect me to be able to? 

Did you ask God if BY taught Adam/God? If you didn't get an answer it means BY didn't teach it. 

14 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

For you, being an expert is the same as being infallible, and it is merely a variation on an apostate doctrine 

You don't have to be perfect to be an expert. In General Conference Sister Pearce taught, "Here are my experts: the prophets " 

Was Sister Pearce teaching apostate doctrine in General Conference? 

[LittleNipper]

49 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I don't make threats, I make promises.  You still haven't dealt with the difficulty with the two different volumes of the Brazen Sea in Kings and Chronicles, and you want more?  I'll be happy to provide a thousand more to you in pdf format, as soon as you admit that you cannot deal adequately with that Brazen Sea. 

As I said, such rites are readily available on the internet, and you can examine them to your heart's content.  However, this board has strict rules against disclosing LDS temple rites here, and my personal oaths & covenants do not permit me to discuss them.  However, that does in no way prevent a heathen such as you from examining them online.

The totalitarians among us often get upset at Constitutional law.  They don't really like freedom, unless it is freedom for their little group and no one else.  They want to dominate the rest of us, and to follow Satan's coercive plans.

There of course many different possibilities regarding the differences surrounding the Brazen Sea. I present the following to show you that neither the differences nor the possibilities are not a secret. Please see: http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=6&article=742

I'm not at all interested in ritualism that you wish to keep secrete. I'm thankful to GOD that His plan of SALVATION is very much open to the general public. I'm very sure that the pagans of ancient Rome considered those "Christians" heathen also. At the very least the pagans imagined that they (those CHRISTians) were both cannibals and atheists. 

Actually, the Liberals among us feel that the Constitution should fit the whims of the latest fads, no matter its original intent.

[SamuelTheLamanite]

Changes 

Edited September 10, 2017 by SamuelTheLamanite

[SamuelTheLamanite]

21 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

Actually, the Liberals among us feel that the Constitution should fit the whims of the latest fads, no matter its original intent.

 

2 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

 And the ideology of separation of Church and State is convenient as long as it's all about the State. If you don't believe that, just see how long you need to wait for a certificate of occupancy after a fire destroys your congregation's sanctuary.  

Hey make your own thread. The scriptures teach that Satan is the true ruler of this world Revelation 12:9 and 1 John 5:19, so now you know why I am a believer in the separation of church and state. See also  John 17:14, 16; 18:36; Mark 12:13-17. 

Edited September 10, 2017 by SamuelTheLamanite

[LittleNipper]

22 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

 

Hey make your own thread. The scriptures teach that Satan is the true ruler of this world see Deuteronomy 32:4, 5, so that is why I am a believer in the separation of church and state. See also John 17:14, 16; 18:36; Mark 12:13-17. 

Perhaps you should have informed Robert F. Smith. This all started from my insinuation that Brigham Young did not fit the biblical criteria of a true prophet... That of course did fit the original topic. Yes. Satan is running things presently; and that is why after the "Catching Away" and the 7 Years of Tribulation ---  Christ will return and lock Satan away for 1000 years. This of course is the Fundamentalist Christian biblical view.

Edited September 10, 2017 by LittleNipper

[SamuelTheLamanite]

7 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

 Yes. Satan is running things presently; and that is why after the "Catching Away" and the 7 Years of Tribulation, Christ will return and lock Satan away for 100o years. This of course is the Fundamentalist Christian view.

Yes it is so true, and that is why I am a believer in the separation of church and state. 

7 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

Perhaps you should have informed Robert F. Smith. This all started from my insinuation that Brigham Young did not fit the biblical criteria of a true prophet... That of course did fit the original topic.

What is the Biblical criteria of a true prophet? Our scriptures teach that Satan inspired men to make changes to the Bible. 

Edited September 10, 2017 by SamuelTheLamanite

[LittleNipper]

11 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Yes it is so true, and that is why I am a believer in the separation of church and state. 

What is the Biblical criteria of a true prophet? Our scriptures teach that Satan inspired men to make changes to the Bible. 

I feel that you wish a separation of Church and State so you will have no need to defend any of your beliefs. That is the cowards way out --- is it not? It most certainly leads to the spreading of lies without confrontation.

[SamuelTheLamanite]

1 hour ago, LittleNipper said:

I feel that you wish a separation of Church and State so you will have no need to defend any of your beliefs. That is the cowards way out --- is it not? It most certainly leads to the spreading of lies without confrontation.

I don't need the state to defend my faith.  1 John 5:19 teaches "We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one."  Why waste our time trying to change the world? We change people, not the world.  Jesus told a politician that his church is not of this world see John 18:36. When did Jesus try to confront the Roman authorities?  Jesus never taught us to change the system because we "are not of the world" John 17:16. We defend our beliefs by preaching and changing hearts, not the governments of the world. 

Edited September 10, 2017 by SamuelTheLamanite

[LittleNipper]

18 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

I don't need the state to defend my faith.  1 John 5:19 teaches "We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one."  Why waste our time trying to change the world? We change people, not the world.  Jesus told a politician that his church is not of this world see John 18:36. When did Jesus try to confront the Roman authorities?  Jesus never taught us to change the system because we "are not of the world" John 17:16. We defend our beliefs by preaching and changing hearts, not the governments of the world. 

Jesus confronted the Sanhedrin, the pharisees, and the sadducees.  Jesus certainly spoke publically and In the "Jewish" temple. Jesus rode into Jerusalem as a king. All the remaining Apostles encountered issues with the "authorities".

[SamuelTheLamanite]

22 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

Jesus confronted the Sanhedrin, the pharisees, and the sadducees.  .

The government was the Roman Empire and Herod Antipas. When did Jesus confront them? 

Jesus confronted the Sanhedrin, the pharisees, and Sadducees, but never tried to change their belief or system.  

There is no need to change the system or the governments of the world, Jesus never taught us to do it. 

22 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

 Jesus rode into Jerusalem as a king. All the remaining Apostles encountered issues with the "authorities".

But he was not king of Jerusalem, was he?  

So, if Satan controls the world why should we try to change it? Jesus taught us to preach and change hearts, we change people, not the world. 

Edited September 11, 2017 by SamuelTheLamanite

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

There of course many different possibilities regarding the differences surrounding the Brazen Sea. I present the following to show you that neither the differences nor the possibilities are not a secret. Please see: http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=6&article=742 .

Once again the fundamentalist inerrant answer is wrong, consisting as it does of a number of copouts which make no sense at all.  The actual solution is far more direct, and the discrepancy cannot be accounted for via differing cubit standards.  The differences in capacity for the same Bronze Sea are stark:

I Kings 7:26         2,000 baths    = 44,000 liters    = 11,440 gallons U.S.
II Chronicles 4:5  3,000 baths    = 66,000 liters    = 17,160 gallons U.S.

Scholar Robert North gives us the most credible solution by showing that I Kings uses the formula for the volume of a hemisphere, V=⅓Cr2, for the 2,000 baths, while the Chronicler uses the formula for finding the capacity of a cylinder, V=½Crh, in order to obtain 3,000 baths.  That the Sea was a hemispherical washing tub for the priests is the likeliest since I Kings is based on eyewitness testimony, whereas Chronicles is late and compiled after the destruction of the Brazen Sea.  See discussion in R. de Vaux, Ancient Israel, I:202-204; Harold Lindsell, Battle for the Bible, 165-166; and Edward F. Campbell, Jr., Ruth, Anchor Bible 7, p. 104 notes.

Quote

I'm not at all interested in ritualism that you wish to keep secrete.

As I have said repeatedly, there is nothing secret about LDS temple rites (they have been available  in full since the 19th century), which makes your comment here a deliberate lie.

Quote

I'm thankful to GOD that His plan of SALVATION is very much open to the general public. I'm very sure that the pagans of ancient Rome considered those "Christians" heathen also. At the very least the pagans imagined that they (those CHRISTians) were both cannibals and atheists. 

Actually, the Liberals among us feel that the Constitution should fit the whims of the latest fads, no matter its original intent.

You apparently know nothing of God's plan of salvation, or you wouldn't be repeatedly bearing false witness about Mormons.  As the evangelical president of Fuller Theological Seminary, Richard Mouw, said:

Quote

I am now convinced that we evangelicals have often seriously misrepresented the beliefs and practices of the Mormon community.  Indeed, let me state it bluntly to the LDS folks here this evening, we have sinned against you.  Mouw in Salt Lake Tabernacle, Nov 2004, as quoted by Tom Thorkelsen in Latter-day Trumpet, 5/9 (Oct 2007):6; cf. Richard J. Mouw’s harsh criticism of his fellow evangelicals for “bearing false witness against” Mormons (in the foreword to F. Beckwith, C. Mosser, and P. Owen, The New Mormon Challenge [Zondervan, 2002], 11).

Is lying on God's behalf part of your ethical and moral standard?

Edited September 11, 2017 by Robert F. Smith