Moroni's Promise

[RevTestament]

4 minutes ago, snowflake said:

The BOM quotes the bible so much that many scholars go as far as to say Joseph plagiarized the Bible.

You should examine this claim closer. If Joseph Smith was simply copying his King James he did a very poor job of it. Close analysis sometimes shows commonality with the Dead Sea scrolls, which of course were not yet found. I'm sure those scholars will back off claiming he plagiarized the Dead Sea scrolls....lol. Further, he either had a photographic memory if he did that or hid his King James in his hat.

[snowflake]

40 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

You should examine this claim closer. If Joseph Smith was simply copying his King James he did a very poor job of it. Close analysis sometimes shows commonality with the Dead Sea scrolls, which of course were not yet found. I'm sure those scholars will back off claiming he plagiarized the Dead Sea scrolls....lol. Further, he either had a photographic memory if he did that or hid his King James in his hat.

You are correct that our KJV Isaiah is almost identical to the "great Isaiah scroll", evidence that the Jews were phenomenal scribes and incredibly accurate. 

Now Joseph copied 13 consecutive chapters from Isaiah into 2 Nephi with several minor word changes. If Nephi had access to Isaiah why would he copy it word for word onto the Golden plates? Why not simply reference them? Also several translation errors in the KJV can be found in the BOM.

Also, Joseph did have a King James bible.....maybe he did put it in his hat....or on the table next to him.

http://www.mormonismdisproved.org/plagiarism.html

[Robert F. Smith]

5 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

Bernie Madoff claimed that his investment scheme was legitimate. Would you simply take his word for it because you felt moved to?

The bigger the claim, the bigger the supporting evidence needs to be. I’d want something a little more than a good feeling before I’d stake my eternity on it.

This is the standard statement made by evangelical fundamentalists, who fully distrust the Holy Spirit as nothing "more than a good feeling.".  They are unable to accept the best mode for a testimony, as indicated by the Lord himself:  Matthew 16:15-17, "He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?  And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.  And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

Of course, the atheist demands supporting evidence of the kind provided by science and logic.  Yet such cannot be provided for the Resurrection or other important biblical events.  For the atheist, that always means that the believers are suckers who will get taken for a ride by the likes of Bernie Madoff.  For the atheist, those who have faith are losers who should be held in derision and contempt.  For the typical atheist, all inspiration or revelation is phony baloney.  Oddly enough, the evangelical fundamentalists agree with the atheists.

[Bobbieaware]

8 hours ago, snowflake said:

Has anyone out there applied Moroni's Promise to the Bible and what was your response? Also, is Moroni's Promise a legitimate test for the Bible?

 

Moroni's promise pertains to God's ordained way for humans to come to know THE TRUTH OF ALL THINGS, not just the the truthfulness of the Book of Mormotruth. 

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things. (Moroni 10)

Therefore, the Bible is one of those many things that one might ask of God to know if it's true by revelation from the Holg Ghost.

[hagoth7]

12 hours ago, Maidservant said:

I have remained LDS, with a healthy dose of Islam on the side :). 

If you don't mind me asking, any bit of Sufi in there with the Islam?

 

Somewhat akin to the question you posed, I asked a question similar to yours many years back. Was a surprisingly fruitful outcome.

Edited September 2, 2017 by hagoth7

[mfbukowski]

17 hours ago, snowflake said:

Has anyone out there applied Moroni's Promise to the Bible and what was your response? Also, is Moroni's Promise a legitimate test for the Bible?

 

Of course

And anyone who believes the bible has experienced Moroni's promise as well.

If you have felt the spirit in church, at an altar call, when you were saved, or felt God in your heart, you have experienced it too.

Has God revealed anything to you?  That is  evidence of "knowing the truth of all things" 

[Marginal Gains]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Of course

And anyone who believes the bible has experienced Moroni's promise as well.

If you have felt the spirit in church, at an altar call, when you were saved, or felt God in your heart, you have experienced it too.

Has God revealed anything to you?  That is  evidence of "knowing the truth of all things" 

Why did people feel the same spirit as they experienced with the Book of Mormon, when they were listening to Paul H. Dunn or Elder Holland’s recently retracted Hells Angel story?

[Scott Lloyd]

19 hours ago, snowflake said:

Has anyone out there applied Moroni's Promise to the Bible and what was your response? Also, is Moroni's Promise a legitimate test for the Bible?

 

Quote

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

-- Moroni 10:5 (part of Moroni's promise)

[Scott Lloyd]

10 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

Moroni's promise pertains to God's ordained way for humans to come to know THE TRUTH OF ALL THINGS, not just the the truthfulness of the Book of Mormotruth. 

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things. (Moroni 10)

Therefore, the Bible is one of those many things that one might ask of God to know if it's true by revelation from the Holg Ghost.

Thank you.

I made my post before I saw yours. Pardon my being so repetitive.

 

[Calm]

38 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said:

Why did people feel the same spirit as they experienced with the Book of Mormon, when they were listening to Paul H. Dunn or Elder Holland’s recently retracted Hells Angel story?

How do you know they felt the same Spirit?  I know many who didnt.

[Marginal Gains]

11 hours ago, Calm said:

How do you know they felt the same Spirit?  I know many who didnt.

I’m taking them at their word. And I’ll take you at yours.

Now, those people who did feel the same spirit, where does that leave them in terms of Moroni’s promise?

You will not fare well in this Mormon forum if you continue to prod and goad. Add some substance.

[Bobbieaware]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Thank you.

I made my post before I saw yours. Pardon my being so repetitive.

 

Perhaps I'm the one who's being unintentionally repetitive? I didn't read the thread before I responded to the original post.

Edited September 2, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[Scott Lloyd]

29 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

Perhaps I'm the one who's being unintentionally repetitive? I didn't read the thread before I responded to the original post.

But yours appeared before mine in any event. 

[Bobbieaware]

10 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

But yours appeared before mine in any event. 

Oh.  All the best to my favorite MD&DB poster on this Labor Day weekend.

 

[hagoth7]

3 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

Why did people feel the same spirit as they experienced with the Book of Mormon, when they were listening to Paul H. Dunn or Elder Holland’s recently retracted Hells Angel story?

I don't recall the impact of hearing Paul Dunn's stories. Must not have been considerable, since his departure didn't phase me.

 

As to Elder Holland's account, it was sufficiently true *to ring true.*

Because *any* missionary/messenger sent to find/aid others *is* a sibling. And that very detail flashed through my mind when I first heard the story.

 

The minor details that some are wanting to make mountains out of are insubstantial in the broader scope of things.

 

Broader question. Why do some feel the need to expand a thread about scripture and the Spirit of God into something apparently intended to be derogatory about the workings of God?

 

I suggest/invite such to tread lightly, for we stand on sacred ground here.

Edited September 2, 2017 by hagoth7

[SteveO]

2 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

I’m taking them at their word. And I’ll take you at yours.

Now, those people who did feel the same spirit, where does that leave them in terms of Moroni’s promise?

My sister in law claimed she spoke with God and was convinced that she received an answer to stay with her boyfriend.  The same boyfriend with no education, no job, and no real future prospects.  Her family, including myself, warned her that it wasn't the right decision.  But she was certain the spirit confirmed her decision.  Later on he got her to loosen her standards and it went downhill from there.

Point is I don't put a whole lot of stock in people's feelings.  I felt good during Al Pacino's speech at the end of, "Scent of a Woman" this past week (amazing movie, watch it), but I don't really attach any divinity to the sentiment.  Elder Holland's story was a feel good story, as any good story is--fictional or not.  So are Paul Dunn's stories.  I like Joseph Smith's description of the spirit as being "pure intelligence".  Studying it out in our minds, and then applying the principles in our own lives, and following Alma's counsel on whether the fruit is good, AND THEN asking whether these things are true, probably will get you further than having warm fuzzies after an engaging and interesting story.

[Glenn101]

17 hours ago, bluebell said:

I never used it to test the Bible, but I think that praying to ask God whether something teaches His gospel is always a legitimate option.   I never did it with the bible because I can't conceive of anyway for the BOM to be true but the Bible not to be.  The BOM teaches the same things the bible teaches, and quotes it from time to time.  

As long as the Bible is translated correctly. 

There are so many parts of the Bible, mainly the Old Testament that bother me. There are several possible answers, none of which I have right now. But of the essential message of the Bible, which is of Jesus the Christ as our Lord and Savior and His atoning sacrifice I have no doubts.

Glenn

[Glenn101]

4 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

Why did people feel the same spirit as they experienced with the Book of Mormon, when they were listening to Paul H. Dunn or Elder Holland’s recently retracted Hells Angel story?

I did not get the same feeling. My experiences with the Book of Mormon, i.e. with gaining a testimony of such transcend the feelings that I get from listening to inspirational talks by orders of magnitude. It is impossible to really describe, but I know the difference because I have experienced both.

Glenn

[Glenn101]

18 hours ago, snowflake said:

The BOM quotes the bible so much that many scholars go as far as to say Joseph plagiarized the Bible.

What scholars have said that Joseph plagiarized the Bible? That is a base canard. Plagiarism is defined as " an act or instance of using or closely imitating the language and thoughts of another author without authorization and the representation of that author's work as one's own, as by not crediting the original author:" (Dictionary.com)

If one reads the Book of Mormon, the sources of the quotes from the Bible are attributed. It is undisputed, even with non-scholars, that there are many verses in the Book of Mormon that also appear in the Bible with a few variations.

Glenn

[Glenn101]

17 hours ago, snowflake said:

Also, Joseph did have a King James bible.....maybe he did put it in his hat....or on the table next to him.

I hope you are joking about the bolded and underlined part. That idea is patently ludicrous. If you seriously examine it, I think you will agree. Even putting single sheets of paper in the bottom of a top hat and reading off of one with head buried in said hat is pretty much impossible.

Glenn

[FormerLDS]

Could you imagine applying Moroni's promise to Jeremiah 17:9?  Makes me wonder how things would have turned out has Joseph Smith been reading 2 Corinthians 11:14 when he knelt in the field to pray.  Moroni's promise is completely self-defeating and circular.  For example, how does an investigator know Moroni's promise is true?  By believing Moroni's promise is God's test of truth, the investigator unwittingly accepts LDS theology as truth before even apply the test!

Nowhere in the Bible does God equate a feeling in the heart with a test for truth!  

[FormerLDS]

19 hours ago, bluebell said:

The BOM teaches the same things the bible teaches, and quotes it from time to time.  

I actually really like this!  Interestingly, the BoM is mostly Bible-flavored prose and doesn't really have anything unique to LDS theology.  Part of the design of the deception.  

Those who believe and are used to the Bible would feel right at home with the BoM.  You don't even get "exposed" to the really good stuff until you've been in the Church for quite a while...

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, FormerLDS said:

I actually really like this!  Interestingly, the BoM is mostly Bible-flavored prose and doesn't really have anything unique to LDS theology.  Part of the design of the deception.  

Those who believe and are used to the Bible would feel right at home with the BoM.  You don't even get "exposed" to the really good stuff until you've been in the Church for quite a while...

Actually, I would say it is the Bible that teaches most of our LDS doctrine which you feel is unique - hence I am LDS because the Bible converted me. Nevertheless, the BoM fills out the Bible. It quotes the Bible in order to apply specific prophesies certain ways. This becomes critical to interpreting the Bible correctly. 

Further, it teaches more about the atonement than the Bible does, and the duality of our earthly existence - the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It teaches more about how to do effective missionary work. 

So it should not be surprising that the BoM feels like a companion to the Bible, and Bible readers would feel at home with it. That is exactly what it is meant to be - a companion to the BIble. It is meant to become one with the Bible - into one stick. See Ezekiel 37. And that joining is about to become evident in the eyes of the people.

[mfbukowski]

10 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

Why did people feel the same spirit as they experienced with the Book of Mormon, when they were listening to Paul H. Dunn or Elder Holland’s recently retracted Hells Angel story?

You are not getting this at all.  

I will have to answer you in the secular language game that you will understand, and equate the spirit with the voice deep inside you in a way you will understand.   I have to put on my secular hat.

That is like asking about an objective observation of some THING out there in the world.  You see it as a "faulty observation of the truth which consists of a statement in correspondence with the world" like "The computer is on the desk" when the computer is not on the desk.

That does not work at all philosophically when speaking of religious topics.  THEY ARE NOT OBSERVABLE OBJECTIVELY.  I don't know why critics think we should see God like a piece of furniture to be observed objectively.  That view is ridiculous and makes no sense.

Religion is about BELIEF in the unanswerable questions of life- why am I here, where did I come from, etc which CANNOT be objectively observed.

Some people dedicate their life to say, ecology because they believe that is important- and that belief has no evidence.

Some people battle for what they think is "social justice" because they think that their activities are important.   Some people die for their country, thinking that that charge up that hill preserves democracy in the world

Some people get "chills" at seeing the flag.  For them, that is a deep emotional experience that gives them purpose for life, just as charging up a hill with a machine gun gives purpose to some people's deaths.

Those all are "religious" beliefs.  There is now a huge amount of literature about "non-theist religions".  Here is one example:  http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2013/04/04/religion-without-god/

So your views are out of sync with the present philosophy of what constitutes "religion", and yes so are the views of many theist people who do not read this stuff.

You know when you feel in your "gut" that something is right.  THAT is the Moroni promise, whatever you call it.  You know right and wrong, without evidence- that is the Moroni promise

I presume you do not kill people for fun, though I don't know you.  You have morals, I presume.  You have no evidence for those morals but you feel deep in side that they are "right"

When Paul Dunn tells a story of morals and miracles, people are moved.  It has nothing to do with an objective observation of true principles in the world- teaching moral principles is not observing furniture.

As a Mormon, when one hears an important parable or story, regardless of if it is about something "real" one can "feel the spirit" genuinely and know that the principle taught is "true" even if the story is not literally true

Have you ever noticed that Jesus taught in parables?

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

I actually really like this!  Interestingly, the BoM is mostly Bible-flavored prose and doesn't really have anything unique to LDS theology.  Part of the design of the deception.  

Those who believe and are used to the Bible would feel right at home with the BoM.  You don't even get "exposed" to the really good stuff until you've been in the Church for quite a while...

The BOM teaches much that is unique to Mormonism- I don't know where you get that at all.

Moroni teaches that we can get inspiration from God to solve any problem.   It teaches the plan of salvation as we understand it.  It explains the Melchizadek Priesthood, and most importantly, the standard of truth for religion- Pragmatism- in Alma 32, and many other unique ideas. It teaches the fortunate fall  and the basic goodness of mankind instead of their corrupt nature.  It totally turns the Bible on its head in that regard.

 https://www.lds.org/ensign/1988/12/unique-insights-on-christ-from-the-book-of-mormon?lang=eng

 

Edited September 2, 2017 by mfbukowski