BYU-I Teach let go

[Jane_Doe]

1 minute ago, cinepro said:

I don't know how many people are still reading this thread, but I just returned from a family reunion where I was surprised to find out that I actually have a niece at BYU-I who was in this teacher's political science class last semester!

No one will be shocked to learn that there is much more to the story than a simple Facebook post (as her Reddit posts already indicated).  My niece is a very sharp, somewhat liberal returned missionary who considers herself a feminist, but from almost day one, she was telling her mother about the weird stuff this teacher was teaching and doing in class.  From showing up with blue hair, to constantly belittling the boys in the class for being...boys.  Comments about how we can't trust LDS prophets because of the Priesthood ban, and mocking any student who would defend the idea that we should trust Church leaders even though they're imperfect.  There were lots of comments against the Church's policies on homosexuality and gay marriage throughout the course.  Nothing that would be out of place on an internet message board, but obviously a little surprising for a BYU-I classroom.  There were many more stories, but overall I couldn't believe any teacher would act so immaturely.

So the idea that she had kept her unorthodox political and doctrinal views out of the classroom is a complete fiction. 

I guess students in one of her other classes had complained about her, because she told my niece's class how "cool" they were in comparison to her other class that "complained all the time" about her.  So her time was no doubt already short at BYU-I and the Facebook post was probably just the last straw.

 

 

Yep, more to the story.

Note: the teacher in question is only ~23.  She just graduated with her own Bachelors.  

[rockpond]

2 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Then how can a company honestly say "we support ALL employees" who they discriminate against people that are against SSM?

I've answered that.  I don't believe further explanations will help you understand.

[rockpond]

8 minutes ago, cinepro said:

I don't know how many people are still reading this thread, but I just returned from a family reunion where I was surprised to find out that I actually have a niece at BYU-I who was in this teacher's political science class last semester!

No one will be shocked to learn that there is much more to the story than a simple Facebook post (as her Reddit posts already indicated).  My niece is a very sharp, somewhat liberal returned missionary who considers herself a feminist, but from almost day one, she was telling her mother about the weird stuff this teacher was teaching and doing in class.  From showing up with blue hair, to constantly belittling the boys in the class for being...boys.  Comments about how we can't trust LDS prophets because of the Priesthood ban, and mocking any student who would defend the idea that we should trust Church leaders even though they're imperfect.  There were lots of comments against the Church's policies on homosexuality and gay marriage throughout the course.  Nothing that would be out of place on an internet message board, but obviously a little surprising for a BYU-I classroom.  There were many more stories, but overall I couldn't believe any teacher would act so immaturely.

So the idea that she had kept her unorthodox political and doctrinal views out of the classroom is a complete fiction. 

I guess students in one of her other classes had complained about her, because she told my niece's class how "cool" they were in comparison to her other class that "complained all the time" about her.  So her time was no doubt already short at BYU-I and the Facebook post was probably just the last straw.

 

 

Thanks for sharing.

If true (and it sounds like a reliable source), it is shocking that she lasted as long as she did!

[ALarson]

13 minutes ago, cinepro said:

I don't know how many people are still reading this thread, but I just returned from a family reunion where I was surprised to find out that I actually have a niece at BYU-I who was in this teacher's political science class last semester!

No one will be shocked to learn that there is much more to the story than a simple Facebook post (as her Reddit posts already indicated).  My niece is a very sharp, somewhat liberal returned missionary who considers herself a feminist, but from almost day one, she was telling her mother about the weird stuff this teacher was teaching and doing in class.  From showing up with blue hair, to constantly belittling the boys in the class for being...boys.  Comments about how we can't trust LDS prophets because of the Priesthood ban, and mocking any student who would defend the idea that we should trust Church leaders even though they're imperfect.  There were lots of comments against the Church's policies on homosexuality and gay marriage throughout the course.  Nothing that would be out of place on an internet message board, but obviously a little surprising for a BYU-I classroom.  There were many more stories, but overall I couldn't believe any teacher would act so immaturely.

So the idea that she had kept her unorthodox political and doctrinal views out of the classroom is a complete fiction. 

I guess students in one of her other classes had complained about her, because she told my niece's class how "cool" they were in comparison to her other class that "complained all the time" about her.  So her time was no doubt already short at BYU-I and the Facebook post was probably just the last straw.

Thanks for the additional information, cinepro.  It appears this teacher is going through some sort of angry phase of a faith crisis!  Her teaching at BYU-I was definitely not a good fit for someone going through this and I think most all of us agree regarding that here (and we also agree that the university was well within their rights to not continue employing her as a teacher). She will most likely be happier not continuing on there as well.  

Edited July 27, 2017 by ALarson

[Gray]

43 minutes ago, bluebell said:

The police department says it wants to protect the neighborhood in compliance with the laws and regulations of the country/state.    Can't leave out that last part because it's an active and literal part of the police department's goal.  

 

Yes, that's the point. A little bit of context changes everything.

[Gray]

41 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Does the company have a qualifying statement somewhere in parentheses that says (be aware, we aren't using the actual definition of the word diversity we only mean sexual diversity)?

No, it doesn't just mean sexual diversity either.
 

Quote

 

Definition of diversity

plural

diversities

1 :  the condition of having or being composed of differing elements :  variety; especially :  the inclusion of different types of people (such as people of different races or cultures) in a group or organization programs intended to promote diversity in schools

 

 

Someone who is actively working against that mission might find their employment in jeopardy. Someone who favors, for example, firing all the black employees for being black, would be in violation of that mission.

 

 

[Gray]

28 minutes ago, cinepro said:

I don't know how many people are still reading this thread, but I just returned from a family reunion where I was surprised to find out that I actually have a niece at BYU-I who was in this teacher's political science class last semester!

No one will be shocked to learn that there is much more to the story than a simple Facebook post (as her Reddit posts already indicated).  My niece is a very sharp, somewhat liberal returned missionary who considers herself a feminist, but from almost day one, she was telling her mother about the weird stuff this teacher was teaching and doing in class.  From showing up with blue hair, to constantly belittling the boys in the class for being...boys.  Comments about how we can't trust LDS prophets because of the Priesthood ban, and mocking any student who would defend the idea that we should trust Church leaders even though they're imperfect.  There were lots of comments against the Church's policies on homosexuality and gay marriage throughout the course.  Nothing that would be out of place on an internet message board, but obviously a little surprising for a BYU-I classroom.  There were many more stories, but overall I couldn't believe any teacher would act so immaturely.

So the idea that she had kept her unorthodox political and doctrinal views out of the classroom is a complete fiction. 

I guess students in one of her other classes had complained about her, because she told my niece's class how "cool" they were in comparison to her other class that "complained all the time" about her.  So her time was no doubt already short at BYU-I and the Facebook post was probably just the last straw.

 

 

That's pretty obnoxious, if true. Very naive to think this wouldn't get her fired (or the equivalent for contractors).

[Jane_Doe]

4 minutes ago, Gray said:

That's pretty obnoxious, if true. Very naive to think this wouldn't get her fired (or the equivalent for contractors).

I'm guessing she also got warnings as well, well before the warning to take down the FB post.

[Amulek]

13 hours ago, rockpond said:

Respect means not discriminating or promoting discrimination against a fellow employee.

A wide array of political questions can be characterized as being discriminatory against one group or another. If this is how a company defines “respect,” I hope they have very well-staffed HR and Legal departments.

 

Quote

I understand what is illegal. I'm asking why should it be right for BYUI to terminate someone for violating the university/church values but wrong for a company to terminate an employee for violating a company value?

Because we recognize that sometimes it doesn’t make sense to apply a general rule to every possible situation. So, for example, we generally think that it is wrong to discriminate against employees based on their religious affiliation. But we recognize that maybe it doesn’t make sense to apply that standard to a private religious school.

I mean, seriously, if the Catholic church wants to have a seminary to train Catholic priests, nobody thinks we should try to punish them for filling up all of the available faculty positions with Catholics instead of Protestants, Jews, or (heaven forefend) Mormons.

  

Quote

It's what she said.  She didn't think that making that post on her private facebook page could get her fired.

I don’t doubt the truthfulness of her claim. I can believe she really thought her Facebook post wouldn’t get her fired. I just think her belief demonstrates a certain…lack of awareness about how the world really works.

 

Quote

Diversity needs to welcome all views but not those which promote discrimination.

Not all discrimination is bad. I recently returned home from vacation, and I have no problem knowing that the airline I flew on forces mandatory retirement upon its pilots based on their age (i.e., age discrimination) for safety reasons.

 

Quote

If an LGBT person were to argue in favor of denying marriage rights to Mormon couples, I would argue that that is also failing to support diversity. 

What if they were to argue in favor of denying marriage rights to FLDS couples? Same thing: anti-diversity?

 

 

 

[ALarson]

45 minutes ago, cinepro said:

I guess students in one of her other classes had complained about her, because she told my niece's class how "cool" they were in comparison to her other class that "complained all the time" about her.  

I just looked her up (out of curiosity) on the "Rate My Professors" website that my son uses to help him pick his college professors.  She only has 2 ratings or reviews.  One is "awesome" and one is "poor" (with some comments added).  

(So, two extremes )

Here's the link (hope that's ok to post here):

http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=2259776

Edited July 27, 2017 by ALarson

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, rockpond said:

Based on your misunderstanding of supporting diversity.

Based on the definition of the words support and diversity.  

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, ALarson said:

Sure it does, if we're discussing who should not be discriminated against.

That's not what we are discussing though.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

Yes, that's the point. A little bit of context changes everything.

Except that's not 'context' it's a part of their actual mission statement.  

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

No, it doesn't just mean sexual diversity either.
 

 

Someone who is actively working against that mission might find their employment in jeopardy. Someone who favors, for example, firing all the black employees for being black, would be in violation of that mission.

 

 

Of course, but if someone's political ideology had no impact on the work they did or their relationship with other employees, and they are still fired just because they don't support SSM, then any company mission statement which says 'we support diversity' really means 'we support sexual diversity and will fire anyone with a belief system which diverges from that."

[ALarson]

6 minutes ago, bluebell said:

That's not what we are discussing though.

Ok.  I've had a hard time following what you and Jane have been posting, I'll admit 

I thought this thread was about whether or not this teacher had been discriminated against....so I did think it was the topic here.

[USU78]

4 hours ago, Gray said:

You weren't being sincere when you observed that some people should be made to shut up? It's often difficult to tell with you. You've expressed some rather startling views in the past. It makes it difficult to tell irony from sincerity. I believe it's called Melville's Law. Or was it Poe's Law? Something along those lines.

"Extreme" is rather in the eye of the tendentious beholder, don't you find?

[bluebell]

40 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Ok.  I've had a hard time following what you and Jane have been posting, I'll admit 

I thought this thread was about whether or not this teacher had been discriminated against....so I did think it was the topic here.

No worries.

There is a sub discussion going on about how companies' mission statements/stated values impact who they hire and fire and whether it's fair (regardless of whether its legal). 

[Gray]

I thought this was timely, given the discussion:

 

http://www.grandforksherald.com/news/4303098-woman-who-threatened-kill-all-ya-somali-americans-will-be-fired

 

Quote

FARGO — A white woman from Mapleton, N.D., who was recorded Tuesday, July 25, threatening a group of three Muslim women in the Walmart parking lot on 13th Avenue South, telling them to "go home" and that she would kill them, will lose her job.

“Whenever she gets here, she will be let go.” said a person at Fargo accounting firm Horab and Wentz, who would only identify himself as one of the firm's partners on Wednesday, July 26.

The man said of Amber Elizabeth Hensley: “Her views are not ours." A couple phones could be heard ringing in the background.

 

Quote

"We're gonna kill all of ya. We're gonna kill every one of ya," the woman is heard saying in the video as she leans into the passenger window to confront 21-year-old Sarah Hassan, who was recording.

"I wanted everyone to see what happens to us every day," Hassan said. "I was so scared."

 

 

[ksfisher]

11 minutes ago, Gray said:

I thought this was timely, given the discussion:

 

http://www.grandforksherald.com/news/4303098-woman-who-threatened-kill-all-ya-somali-americans-will-be-fired

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure that I would want to work with someone who was threatening to kill people.  If noting else probably a good workplace safety move by her employer.

[Gray]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Except that's not 'context' it's a part of their actual mission statement.  

Their mission statement is pro-diversity. Diversity doesn't mean pro-anti-diversity. That's not what the word means in context.

[Gray]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Of course, but if someone's political ideology had no impact on the work they did or their relationship with other employees, and they are still fired just because they don't support SSM, then any company mission statement which says 'we support diversity' really means 'we support sexual diversity and will fire anyone with a belief system which diverges from that."

That doesn't follow. Civil rights for gay people is only one of many aspects. Some people have a belief system that says that women or ethnic minorities are inferior. In practice that usually doesn't get someone fired, but if it bleeds into work or if someone becomes a prominent, loud  activist against the rights of minorities, their employment could be jeopardized.

By your reasoning, could the church's mission statement be boiled down to "we oppose gay rights"? That's what you're doing with this company's policy.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

I thought this was timely, given the discussion:

 

http://www.grandforksherald.com/news/4303098-woman-who-threatened-kill-all-ya-somali-americans-will-be-fired

 

 

 

 

Glad she was fired!

[USU78]

4 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

Yep, more to the story.

Note: the teacher in question is only ~23.  She just graduated with her own Bachelors.  

Fair enough.  There's a reason car rental places won't rent to anybody under 25  ...

[Calm]

It seems like diversity is being used by some as meaning 'making sure we have enough variety in the seats, but some of them better keep their mouths shut'.

'We want to see diversity, not hear it'

 

Edited July 27, 2017 by Calm

[USU78]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

Their mission statement is pro-diversity. Diversity doesn't mean pro-anti-diversity. That's not what the word means in context.

This is what comes from letting other people control which words may be used and in which contexts.  Bullies restrict both the words and the contexts.

Yet "[c]ongress shall make no law" ...