JLHPROF Posted July 17, 2017 Posted July 17, 2017 In Church on Sunday a speaker made an interesting statement that has had me thinking. They said that Salvation is an individual pursuit but Exaltation requires working with other people. And I've been thinking on this ever since. IE: - To gain admittance into the Celestial Kingdom we have to accept Christ, repent, and be baptized. That requires our own personal conversion, our own repentance process, and our own entering into the covenant of baptism. (Yes, an administrator is required but not forever after the ordinance). - To gain exaltation as joint heirs with Christ ruling and reigning for all eternity etc requires eternal marriage, our kingdoms will be our families - whether posterity or ancestry. It got me thinking about membership in a priesthood quorum, building up God's kingdom on earth, filling callings in the Church, United Order (because I'm reading Arrington's book on it right now). It seems that almost everything in the gospel designed to take us from the starting point of salvation in Christ and entrance into his Kingdom all the way up to ruling and reigning in the eternities requires we learn to work with other people. Thoughts? 3
Glenn101 Posted July 18, 2017 Posted July 18, 2017 4 hours ago, JLHPROF said: It seems that almost everything in the gospel designed to take us from the starting point of salvation in Christ and entrance into his Kingdom all the way up to ruling and reigning in the eternities requires we learn to work with other people. That is pretty much what I have come to believe based upon the teachings of Christ and the other scriptures. But I think that it more like working for people. Once we have availed ourselves of the ordinances that provide the gateway to salvation and exaltation, we have a life time of enduring to the end. My understanding of that is that we have a life time of service, helping others. It is not what we do for ourselves, our good works, that will determine our starting point post mortal. (My opinion) Doctrine and Covenants 50:26 He that is ordained of God and sent forth, the same is appointed to be the greatest, notwithstanding he is the least and the servant of all. Matthew 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. Matthew 20:26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; Mark 10:43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: Glenn 2
stemelbow Posted July 18, 2017 Posted July 18, 2017 4 hours ago, JLHPROF said: In Church on Sunday a speaker made an interesting statement that has had me thinking. They said that Salvation is an individual pursuit but Exaltation requires working with other people. I don't mean to offend but I always thought it's a cute idea but i question the application of it. Salvation even in LDS thought requires we work with and love people just as exaltation. And salvation is not possible for humanity without temple work. I'm not sure it's a very good dichotomy becuause of that. 4 hours ago, JLHPROF said: And I've been thinking on this ever since. IE: - To gain admittance into the Celestial Kingdom we have to accept Christ, repent, and be baptized. That requires our own personal conversion, our own repentance process, and our own entering into the covenant of baptism. (Yes, an administrator is required but not forever after the ordinance). - To gain exaltation as joint heirs with Christ ruling and reigning for all eternity etc requires eternal marriage, our kingdoms will be our families - whether posterity or ancestry. It got me thinking about membership in a priesthood quorum, building up God's kingdom on earth, filling callings in the Church, United Order (because I'm reading Arrington's book on it right now). It seems that almost everything in the gospel designed to take us from the starting point of salvation in Christ and entrance into his Kingdom all the way up to ruling and reigning in the eternities requires we learn to work with other people. Thoughts?
Duncan Posted July 18, 2017 Posted July 18, 2017 salvation isn't dependant on anyone else , in terms of I can't be saved because my family member is a yo-yo, i don't see it as all or nothing. I think though we're saved in families and if someone won't be saved then God will find you someone who will, i.e marriage
clarkgoble Posted July 18, 2017 Posted July 18, 2017 Yup. We are not saved individually but as a community. Most of the judgments (although not all) in scripture are communal and not individual. While our American social tendency is to think of everything in terms of the individual, Mormonism really is a communal religion. Those two tensions often lead to lots of interesting ways of thinking about our religion. This is why missionary work and works for the dead is so important. Plus I'd say the most important post-Nauvoo revelation is really about adoption. (It's odd that Joseph never really understood it well) That is if my parents are unrighteous I can be sealed to my grandparents or adopted somewhere else. It took a while for that to really sink in to the saints. The rise of modernism really pushed what philosophers call nominalism or the idea that only particular things exist. All unity is ultimately an illusion. While modernism brought a lot of important ideas and even that one was helpful for developing civil rights, it also brought a lot of confusion and error. The older view was that communities were real and weren't just an illusion with only individual people existing. John Donne's old saying, "no man is an island" is really about that fundamental connectedness. To quote him further: No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were: any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bells tolls; it tolls for thee. 2
Hamba Tuhan Posted July 18, 2017 Posted July 18, 2017 (edited) 11 hours ago, JLHPROF said: It seems that almost everything in the gospel designed to take us from the starting point of salvation in Christ and entrance into his Kingdom all the way up to ruling and reigning in the eternities requires we learn to work with other people. Which is why the development of Christian asceticism, which then led to eremetic and later forms of monasticism, was such a huge step backwards. Yes, it may be easier, for example, to obey the command to love one's neighbour when one has none, but where exactly does that even take us? Edited July 18, 2017 by Hamba Tuhan 1
Bobbieaware Posted July 18, 2017 Posted July 18, 2017 (edited) 16 hours ago, JLHPROF said: In Church on Sunday a speaker made an interesting statement that has had me thinking. They said that Salvation is an individual pursuit but Exaltation requires working with other people. And I've been thinking on this ever since. IE: - To gain admittance into the Celestial Kingdom we have to accept Christ, repent, and be baptized. That requires our own personal conversion, our own repentance process, and our own entering into the covenant of baptism. (Yes, an administrator is required but not forever after the ordinance). - To gain exaltation as joint heirs with Christ ruling and reigning for all eternity etc requires eternal marriage, our kingdoms will be our families - whether posterity or ancestry. It got me thinking about membership in a priesthood quorum, building up God's kingdom on earth, filling callings in the Church, United Order (because I'm reading Arrington's book on it right now). It seems that almost everything in the gospel designed to take us from the starting point of salvation in Christ and entrance into his Kingdom all the way up to ruling and reigning in the eternities requires we learn to work with other people. Thoughts? This whole premise is absolute nonsense, the product of someone who thought he discovered some great gospel insight but didn't think to apply critical thinking so as to make sure the concept could be validated by the scriptures. Since when does the baptismal covenant stipulate that a convert's covenantal obligations are strictly between him and the Lord and don't involve having to work with and serve anyone else? There are a great many verses of scripture that could be be called upon as torpedoes to sink this rickety, unseaworthy ship of an idea, but the following section will suffice. 8 And it came to pass that he (Alma) said unto them: Behold, here are the waters of Mormon (for thus were they called) and now, as ye are desirous to come into the fold of God (a group of people who work and serve together), and to be called his people, and are willing to bear one another’s burdens, that they may be light (how can one who is under the baptismal covenant bear other member's burdens without learning how to intimately work together with others?) ; 9 Yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort (again, how can one mourn and comfort other people in their sorrows and tragedies without learning how to work closely with them?), and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death (according to Alma, strengthening the saints and sharing the redeeming power and love of God with OTHER PEOPLE is certainly an integral component of the baptismal covenant) that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the first resurrection, that ye may have eternal life— 10 Now I say unto you, if this be the desire of your hearts, what have you against being baptized in the name of the Lord, as a witness before him that ye have entered into a covenant with him, that ye will serve him and keep his commandments (it was King Benjamin who said the only meaningful way we can serve God and do his will is to work with and serve our fellow man), that he may pour out his Spirit more abundantly upon you? (Mosiah 18) Edited July 18, 2017 by Bobbieaware 1
stemelbow Posted July 18, 2017 Posted July 18, 2017 12 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said: This whole premise is absolute nonsense, the product of someone who thought he discovered some great gospel insight but didn't think to apply critical thinking so as to make sure the concept could be validated by the scriptures. Since when does the baptismal covenant stipulate that a convert's covenantal obligations are strictly between him and the Lord and don't involve having to work with and serve anyone else? There are a great many verses of scripture that could be be called upon as torpedoes to sink this rickety, unseaworthy ship of an idea, but the following section will suffice. 8 And it came to pass that he (Alma) said unto them: Behold, here are the waters of Mormon (for thus were they called) and now, as ye are desirous to come into the fold of God (a group of people who work and serve together), and to be called his people, and are willing to bear one another’s burdens, that they may be light (how can one who is under the baptismal covenant bear other member's burdens without learning how to intimately work together with others?) ; 9 Yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort (again, how can one mourn and comfort other people in their sorrows and tragedies without learning how to work closely with them?), and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death (according to Alma, strengthening the saints and sharing the redeeming power and love of God with OTHER PEOPLE is certainly an integral component of the baptismal covenant) that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the first resurrection, that ye may have eternal life— 10 Now I say unto you, if this be the desire of your hearts, what have you against being baptized in the name of the Lord, as a witness before him that ye have entered into a covenant with him, that ye will serve him and keep his commandments (it was King Benjamin who said the only meaningful way we can serve God and do his will is to work with and serve our fellow man), that he may pour out his Spirit more abundantly upon you? (Mosiah 18) Quoted because this is one of the rare times, it feels like, that I agree with bobbieaware. 1
CV75 Posted July 18, 2017 Posted July 18, 2017 16 hours ago, JLHPROF said: In Church on Sunday a speaker made an interesting statement that has had me thinking. They said that Salvation is an individual pursuit but Exaltation requires working with other people. And I've been thinking on this ever since. IE: - To gain admittance into the Celestial Kingdom we have to accept Christ, repent, and be baptized. That requires our own personal conversion, our own repentance process, and our own entering into the covenant of baptism. (Yes, an administrator is required but not forever after the ordinance). - To gain exaltation as joint heirs with Christ ruling and reigning for all eternity etc requires eternal marriage, our kingdoms will be our families - whether posterity or ancestry. It got me thinking about membership in a priesthood quorum, building up God's kingdom on earth, filling callings in the Church, United Order (because I'm reading Arrington's book on it right now). It seems that almost everything in the gospel designed to take us from the starting point of salvation in Christ and entrance into his Kingdom all the way up to ruling and reigning in the eternities requires we learn to work with other people. Thoughts? https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2008/04/salvation-and-exaltation?lang=eng "In God’s eternal plan, salvation is an individual matter; exaltation is a family matter." In another sense, we are to treat everyone as Jesus' brethren (Matthew 25:31-46), and we cannot do that individually.
CV75 Posted July 18, 2017 Posted July 18, 2017 12 hours ago, stemelbow said: I don't mean to offend but I always thought it's a cute idea but i question the application of it. Salvation even in LDS thought requires we work with and love people just as exaltation. And salvation is not possible for humanity without temple work. I'm not sure it's a very good dichotomy becuause of that. Salvation, in the sense of redemption from death, requires no faith or work on our part.
stemelbow Posted July 18, 2017 Posted July 18, 2017 16 minutes ago, CV75 said: Salvation, in the sense of redemption from death, requires no faith or work on our part. Get thee hence, Satan. I disagree. We work, not because we will be saved, but because we love God and others. I suppose if LDS suppositions are true and we are born unwilling to do a thing, as in work for our food and station, then we'd all die in infancy and we'd be automatically saved. But that seems to miss the boat of the teaching to me.
CV75 Posted July 18, 2017 Posted July 18, 2017 19 minutes ago, stemelbow said: Get thee hence, Satan. I disagree. We work, not because we will be saved, but because we love God and others. I suppose if LDS suppositions are true and we are born unwilling to do a thing, as in work for our food and station, then we'd all die in infancy and we'd be automatically saved. But that seems to miss the boat of the teaching to me. I am happy that you work because you love God and others. Not everyone does, and they will be resurrected too. Infants of course need their mothers and others so as not to die in infancy (and not all mothers and others love either them and/or believe God) but no matter who dies or when, all will be resurrected regardless of what they do or how lovingly or piously they do it. Do you think you won't be resurrected?
RevTestament Posted July 18, 2017 Posted July 18, 2017 1 minute ago, CV75 said: I am happy that you work because you love God and others. Not everyone does, and they will be resurrected too. Infants of course need their mothers and others so as not to die in infancy (and not all mothers and others love either them and/or believe God) but no matter who dies or when, all will be resurrected regardless of what they do or how lovingly or piously they do it. Do you think you won't be resurrected? I do not know why LDS confuse resurrection with salvation, but they are not the same. Even the wicked get resurrected. While that might be a very temporary salvation from hell for the purpose of being judged, some will not be saved, but go back.
stemelbow Posted July 18, 2017 Posted July 18, 2017 6 minutes ago, CV75 said: Not everyone does, I disagree. Everyone who has ever lived beyond their fifth birthday has done something (that is offered some work) because they love another.
CV75 Posted July 18, 2017 Posted July 18, 2017 8 minutes ago, RevTestament said: I do not know why LDS confuse resurrection with salvation, but they are not the same. Even the wicked get resurrected. While that might be a very temporary salvation from hell for the purpose of being judged, some will not be saved, but go back. I'm sure you will set us straight! 8 minutes ago, stemelbow said: I disagree. Everyone who has ever lived beyond their fifth birthday has done something (that is offered some work) because they love another. Who knows for sure? Everyone who has ever lived beyond their fifth birthday also doesn't do things for others things for others out of love, and even do cruel and hateful things (depending how you view it). What about those too young or too old to even conceptualize others, no less doing selfless things for them, or have a cognizant emotional motive in relation to them? God is very liberal, so even if someone never does anything out of love, he will be resurrected.
JLHPROF Posted July 18, 2017 Author Posted July 18, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, RevTestament said: I do not know why LDS confuse resurrection with salvation, but they are not the same. Even the wicked get resurrected. While that might be a very temporary salvation from hell for the purpose of being judged, some will not be saved, but go back. Because in many ways they are the same. Salvation is to be saved. Saved from what? From the grave where we would all remain if our sins remained upon us. Salvation is not limited to those who receive entrance to the Celestial Kingdom. Even those who receive a Telestial or Terrestrial glory are said to be saved. D&C 76:43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him. D&C 76:88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation. All except perdition are considered saved (ie receive immorality in a Kingdom). Telestial Kingdom is considered salvation. The real confusion is that many confuse Salvation (general) with Salvation in the Celestial Kingdom and use the term interchangeably. As you did in your post. Edited July 18, 2017 by JLHPROF
RevTestament Posted July 19, 2017 Posted July 19, 2017 12 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Because in many ways they are the same. Salvation is to be saved. Saved from what? From the grave where we would all remain if our sins remained upon us. Rev "death and hell" - the spirits go to hell. That is what they are being saved from. They are not the same. Quote The real confusion is that many confuse Salvation (general) with Salvation in the Celestial Kingdom and use the term interchangeably. As you did in your post. No. I did not. I am distinguishing no salvation as in the case of the sons of perdition who also get resurrected from those who are saved - again something LDS tend to confuse.
JLHPROF Posted July 19, 2017 Author Posted July 19, 2017 11 hours ago, RevTestament said: Rev "death and hell" - the spirits go to hell. That is what they are being saved from. They are not the same. No, I disagree. I believe they are being saved from death. That is the whole point of the atonement and resurrection. Scripture tells us that the wages of sin are death. Any sin, in any degree, is enough to prevent resurrection and leave us in the grave. Through the atonement of Christ we are all to be resurrected (saved) from that fate. That is why every one except perdition will eventually accept Christ as Lord. 11 hours ago, RevTestament said: No. I did not. I am distinguishing no salvation as in the case of the sons of perdition who also get resurrected from those who are saved - again something LDS tend to confuse. I have yet to see any evidence in scripture or prophetic teaching that Sons of Perdition will receive a resurrected body.
RevTestament Posted July 19, 2017 Posted July 19, 2017 2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I have yet to see any evidence in scripture or prophetic teaching that Sons of Perdition will receive a resurrected body. The sons of Perdition are those who refuse repentance even at the time of judgment - hence they are handed over to the devil because salvation and forgiveness can make no claim on them. They get judged like everyone else. 37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power; research that, and you should have your answer. The second death comes after the resurrection.
JLHPROF Posted July 19, 2017 Author Posted July 19, 2017 (edited) 41 minutes ago, RevTestament said: The sons of Perdition are those who refuse repentance even at the time of judgment - hence they are handed over to the devil because salvation and forgiveness can make no claim on them. They get judged like everyone else. 37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power; research that, and you should have your answer. The second death comes after the resurrection. I bolded the part not in any scripture I can find.https://www.lds.org/scriptures/search?lang=eng&query=second+death&x=0&y=0 Can you provide any evidence that the second death suffered by perdition requires a resurrection? Because here is what I read: D&C 76:37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.39 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made. Seems to me that perdition are those who are denied resurrection for their refusal to accept Christ and their rebellion against him. There are 100 men, one will be forced to eat broccoli. All the rest shall be given steak to eat. Is that ANY indication that the one eating broccoli will get a steak as well? Edited July 19, 2017 by JLHPROF
Maidservant Posted July 20, 2017 Posted July 20, 2017 Zion is being one heart and one mind. This is our final state (when we can do it). It is definitely communal. 2
hagoth7 Posted July 20, 2017 Posted July 20, 2017 On 7/17/2017 at 2:54 PM, JLHPROF said: ...It seems that almost everything in the gospel designed to take us from the starting point of salvation in Christ and entrance into his Kingdom all the way up to ruling and reigning in the eternities requires we learn to work with other people. Thoughts? WIthin the LDS faith? Or with those beyond so-called boundaries? All lasting success comes through cooperation. As taught in scripture.
hagoth7 Posted July 20, 2017 Posted July 20, 2017 On 7/17/2017 at 8:13 PM, Duncan said: salvation isn't dependant on anyone else , in terms of I can't be saved because my family member is a yo-yo, i don't see it as all or nothing. I think though we're saved in families and if someone won't be saved then God will find you someone who will, i.e marriage http://biblehub.com/ezekiel/14-14.htm Thoughts?
Duncan Posted July 20, 2017 Posted July 20, 2017 6 hours ago, hagoth7 said: http://biblehub.com/ezekiel/14-14.htm Thoughts? there is probably more to the story than is being told but it speaks to spiritual self reliance, God won't take us kicking and screaming into Heaven
JLHPROF Posted July 20, 2017 Author Posted July 20, 2017 9 hours ago, hagoth7 said: http://biblehub.com/ezekiel/14-14.htm Thoughts? Ezekiel 14:12 ¶ The word of the Lord came again to me, saying, 13 Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it: 14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord God. Seems to me the context here is that it doesn't matter which prophets you follow or where you live (Utah?), a prophet can only save himself from a wicked society. Again, salvation being an individual pursuit. But going back to the OP, exaltation requires working and joining with other people.
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