Alleged Mormon rudeness about homosexuality

[Scott Lloyd]

In the last post of a now-closed thread, Calm said this:

 

Quote

Calling gay marriage itself an abomination and perverse probably seems like mocking and rudeness to many when there are less extreme words that convey the same idea.

The above is different than disagreement or even just using the term "immoral" to describe gay marriage.

Calm makes a good point here which I don't dispute.

However, it made me curious. So I went on Google and typed in the search terms "gay marriage" and "abomination." There were many hits containing the word "abomination" in association with homosexuality, not a few of them from the Bible itself. However,  I looked at many score of them before I finally abandoned the pursuit. With one exception, none of the ones I viewed were from Mormon sources.

The one exception was from Jana Riess, the vocal and prominent critic of Mormonism. The occurrence of the word was in a so-called "nasty-gram" Riess had received from an anonymous reader of her blog. The communication evidently was not meant for publication.

So my conclusion from this is that, though homosexuality is often referred to by religionists as an "abomination," it does not occur nearly as much from Mormons as it does from other sources and not nearly as often from Mormons as one might be led to believe.

 

Edited July 13, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[JulieM]

Calm didn't allege or specify "Mormon rudeness" about homosexuality.  She was just responding to your comment, from what I saw.  I agree with her and think it's a good reminder when this topic is one that's commonly discussed on here.

For context of her comment you quoted, here's where the exchange started (with a comment from ALarson):

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/69245-missionary-finding-his-lost-brother-avoiding-dogs/?do=findComment&comment=1209735786

I agree with you too, Scott, that we should be respectful of what we know is sacred to others.

As far as your comments in your OP, I'm not sure there's really any way of knowing how many Mormons still use that term.  

Hopefully it's less and less as time goes by and I believe that's happening.

Edited July 13, 2017 by JulieM

[Damien the Leper]

28 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

In the last post of a now-closed thread, Calm said this:

 

Calm makes a good point here which I don't dispute.

However, it made me curious. So I went on Google and typed in the search terms "gay marriage" and "abomination." There were many hits containing the word "abomination" in association with homosexuality, not a few of them from the Bible itself. However,  I looked at many score of them before I finally abandoned the pursuit. With one exception, none of the ones I viewed were from Mormon sources.

The one exception was from Jana Riess, the vocal and prominent critic of Mormonism. The occurrence of the word was in a so-called "nasty-gram" Riess had received from an anonymous reader of her blog. The communication evidently was not meant for publication.

So my conclusion from this is that, though homosexuality is often referred to by religionists as an "abomination," it does not occur nearly as much from Mormons as it does from other sources and not nearly as often from Mormons as one might be led to believe.

 

That is because no scriptural text that Mormons accept calls it an abomination. No need to use an absent term to describe something just because one disagrees with the marriage. It's rather juvenile and petulant.

[thesometimesaint]

10 minutes ago, Valentinus said:

That is because no scriptural text that Mormons accept calls it an abomination. No need to use an absent term to describe something just because one disagrees with the marriage. It's rather juvenile and petulant.

Mormons accept the Bible. We have evolved in reference as to what we want our secular government to do about it.

Chapters 18 and 20 of Leviticus form part of the Holiness code and list prohibited forms of intercourse, including the following verses:

• "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination." Chapter 18 verse 22^.
• "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them." Chapter 20 verse 13.

Edited July 13, 2017 by thesometimesaint

[ttribe]

10 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Mormons accept the Bible. We have evolved in reference as to what we want our secular government to do about it.

Chapters 18 and 20 of Leviticus form part of the Holiness code and list prohibited forms of intercourse, including the following verses:

• "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination." Chapter 18 verse 22^.
• "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them." Chapter 20 verse 13.

Perhaps he meant, uniquely Mormon scriptural text.

[Damien the Leper]

Firstly, you didn't address my post correctly. Cite a scriptural text that states gay marriage is an abomination.

Secondly, abomination is not a literal translation, nor in the same ball park for that matter, of the Hebrew word to'ebah. "Abomination" is a late mistranslation and bastardization of the text.

[ttribe]

24 minutes ago, Valentinus said:

That is because no scriptural text that Mormons accept calls it an abomination. No need to use an absent term to describe something just because one disagrees with the marriage. It's rather juvenile and petulant.

I might add that, IMO, the rhetorical use of scare quotes around the word *marriage* falls under that description as well.

Edited July 13, 2017 by ttribe

[JLHPROF]

24 minutes ago, Valentinus said:

That is because no scriptural text that Mormons accept calls it an abomination. No need to use an absent term to describe something just because one disagrees with the marriage. It's rather juvenile and petulant.

Del.
 

Edited July 13, 2017 by JLHPROF

[Tacenda]

53 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

In the last post of a now-closed thread, Calm said this:

 

Calm makes a good point here which I don't dispute.

However, it made me curious. So I went on Google and typed in the search terms "gay marriage" and "abomination." There were many hits containing the word "abomination" in association with homosexuality, not a few of them from the Bible itself. However,  I looked at many score of them before I finally abandoned the pursuit. With one exception, none of the ones I viewed were from Mormon sources.

The one exception was from Jana Riess, the vocal and prominent critic of Mormonism. The occurrence of the word was in a so-called "nasty-gram" Riess had received from an anonymous reader of her blog. The communication evidently was not meant for publication.

So my conclusion from this is that, though homosexuality is often referred to by religionists as an "abomination," it does not occur nearly as much from Mormons as it does from other sources and not nearly as often from Mormons as one might be led to believe.

 

I believe you're right, in the open, members would never say that, but what is in their hearts? Just by reading statements on this board, the true feelings come out since it's mostly anonymous and they can get away with it. 

[Damien the Leper]

1 minute ago, ttribe said:

I might add that, IMO, the rhetorical of scare quotes around the word *marriage* falls under that description as well.

It is. It's condescending. Personally, when one uses such scare quotes it makes it difficult to consider taking them seriously. I tend to laugh at people like that.

[JulieM]

4 minutes ago, Valentinus said:

It is. It's condescending. Personally, when one uses such scare quotes it makes it difficult to consider taking them seriously. I tend to laugh at people like that.

Yes, it always makes me smile when I see these used 

Do they believe that about any legal marriage that isn't also a temple sealing?  

If not, why not?  

[Scott Lloyd]

53 minutes ago, Valentinus said:

Firstly, you didn't address my post correctly. Cite a scriptural text that states gay marriage is an abomination.

 

Since the concept of gay marriage did not exist when scriptures were written, there will not be any instance of scripture addressing it. What is under discussion here is use of the word in scripture in association with homosexuality, not homosexual marriage as such.

Quote

Secondly, abomination is not a literal translation, nor in the same ball park for that matter, of the Hebrew word to'ebah. "Abomination" is a late mistranslation and bastardization of the text.

That being the case, can you tell us what 'ebah does mean?

Edited to add:

Never mind. I found this website that addresses the matter.

 

Edited July 13, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[JulieM]

4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Since the concept of gay marriage did not exist when scriptures were written, there will not be any instance of scripture addressing it. What is under discussion here is use of the word in association with homosexuality.

calm's comment that we're discussing specifies "calling gay marriage itself an abomination".

Those are also the terms you stated that you googled. (Gay marriage and abomination)

Edited July 13, 2017 by JulieM

[Scott Lloyd]

26 minutes ago, JulieM said:

calm's comment that we're discussing specifies "calling gay marriage itself an abomination".

Those are also the terms you stated that you googled. (Gay marriage and abomination)

Nevertheless, you won't find the concept of gay marriage mentioned in the Bible or any other scripture, as it did not exist at the time the scriptures were written.

My Google search (and Calm's post) had to do with what is in modern internet conversation, not with what is in the Bible.

 

Edited July 13, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[HappyJackWagon]

Yes, we'll find many inflammatory words about SSM amongst church members. IMO- this board illustrates this truth on multiple threads; I seem to recall words like abomination, disgusting, perversion, unnatural, etc  have been used. It is clear that there are some on this board who view SSM & h0mosxuality this way and are not shy about using inflammatory language to describe it. I doubt those individuals would even argue the case because they feel morally superior and righteous in calling out this extreme wickedness.

If this kind of language can be found on this board is it unreasonable to think it is used by other Mormons not on this board? That doesn't mean that Mormons are worse than other fundamentalists who might also describe it that way, but do Mormons want to be like fundamentalist evangelicals?

So yes, many Mormons are rude about SSM. Some even seem to revel in calling out the wickedness with sharp language. It's hard to imagine how it could be defended that there isn't rudeness amongst Mormons. Not all...obviously...but some. IMO, too many.

[Scott Lloyd]

16 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Yes, we'll find many inflammatory words about SSM amongst church members. IMO- this board illustrates this truth on multiple threads; I seem to recall words like abomination, disgusting, perversion, unnatural, etc  have been used. It is clear that there are some on this board who view SSM & h0mosxuality this way and are not shy about using inflammatory language to describe it. I doubt those individuals would even argue the case because they feel morally superior and righteous in calling out this extreme wickedness.

If this kind of language can be found on this board is it unreasonable to think it is used by other Mormons not on this board? That doesn't mean that Mormons are worse than other fundamentalists who might also describe it that way, but do Mormons want to be like fundamentalist evangelicals?

So yes, many Mormons are rude about SSM. Some even seem to revel in calling out the wickedness with sharp language. It's hard to imagine how it could be defended that there isn't rudeness amongst Mormons. Not all...obviously...but some. IMO, too many.

If it were as prevalent as you make it out to be, I would expect there to be many, many occurrences of the commonly used epithet "abomination" from Mormon sources in a Google search. Yet, as I indicated in the OP, I found scarcely one among many hits, and that was from anonymous hate male received and quoted by a vocal critic of Mormonism.

Also, my memory does not coincide with yours about the frequency of use on this board of the language you cite.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[JulieM]

14 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Yes, we'll find many inflammatory words about SSM amongst church members. IMO- this board illustrates this truth on multiple threads; I seem to recall words like abomination, disgusting, perversion, unnatural, etc  have been used. It is clear that there are some on this board who view SSM & h0mosxuality this way and are not shy about using inflammatory language to describe it. 

I've also seen where some on here state that those who are gay suffer from a malady or disease.  That's so insulting and also extremely uninformed.

I think what calm posted was excellent.

[stemelbow]

I think it's true that people don't really use the word abomination any more.  Of course there are tons of ways to express the same thing as abomination, or something similar, and certainly something similar in effect.

Keep in my Elder Christofferson in trying to explain the Nov 2015 policy. "He said the changes were necessary because the Church regards “same-sex marriage as a particularly grievous or significant, serious kind of sin that requires Church discipline.”

https://www.lds.org/church/news/elder-christofferson-says-handbook-changes-regarding-same-sex-marriages-help-protect-children?lang=eng

What is abomination other than "a particularly grievous or significant, serious kind of sin that requires Church discipline"? 

 

[Damien the Leper]

42 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Since the concept of gay marriage did not exist when scriptures were written, there will not be any instance of scripture addressing it. What is under discussion here is use of the word in association with homosexuality.

That being the case, can you tell us what 'ebah does mean?

Edited to add:

Never mind. I found this website that addresses the matter.

 

Here is a better explanation.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I believe you're right, in the open, members would never say that, but what is in their hearts? Just by reading statements on this board, the true feelings come out since it's mostly anonymous and they can get away with it. 

So if I understand you correctly, you believe Mormons are rude because of what you think is "in their hearts," even if they never say or write it.

[HappyJackWagon]

25 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

If it were as prevalent as you make it out to be, I would expect there to be many, many occurrences of the commonly used epithet "abomination" from Mormon sources in a Google search. Yet, as I indicated in the OP, I found scarcely one among many hits, and that was from anonymous hate male received and quoted by a vocal critic of Mormonism.

Also, my memory does not coincide with yours about the frequency of use on this board of the language you cite.

So IF "abomination" doesn't yield quick results in google searches, then we must assume church members are not rude about LGBT issues? Strange assertion.

I just went back and looked quickly at the SSM poll thread and on the first page came up with this...

Quote

Alan – Same Sex Marriage Poll - June 29 (5 Rep Points)

Just for the record, I absolutely do not support SSM in any way shape of form. Homosexual behavior is an abomination.

This is just one occurrence but I recall many others using a variety of language on virtually every thread that touches on the topic. You're right that we must remember things differently. 

So I just did your google search. I found the Jana Reis link. The third link is this... http://tysonchunt.blogspot.com/2015/06/legalization-of-gay-marriage-lds-church.html talking about SSM as the Abomination of Desolation.

Again, I'm not suggesting that every Mormon is rude about LGBT issues but it's certainly not a rarity.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, stemelbow said:

I think it's true that people don't really use the word abomination any more.  Of course there are tons of ways to express the same thing as abomination, or something similar, and certainly something similar in effect.

Keep in my Elder Christofferson in trying to explain the Nov 2015 policy. "He said the changes were necessary because the Church regards “same-sex marriage as a particularly grievous or significant, serious kind of sin that requires Church discipline.”

https://www.lds.org/church/news/elder-christofferson-says-handbook-changes-regarding-same-sex-marriages-help-protect-children?lang=eng

What is abomination other than "a particularly grievous or significant, serious kind of sin that requires Church discipline"? 

 

So I take it, then that you disagree with Calm, who said, "The above [use of the words abomination or perverse] is different than disagreement or even just using the term "immoral" to describe gay marriage." That is, in your view, a Church leader cannot even teach the law of chastity without you considering it rude, regardless of the terminology he uses.

[Scott Lloyd]

27 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

So IF "abomination" doesn't yield quick results in google searches, then we must assume church members are not rude about LGBT issues? Strange assertion.

I just went back and looked quickly at the SSM poll thread and on the first page came up with this...

This is just one occurrence but I recall many others using a variety of language on virtually every thread that touches on the topic. You're right that we must remember things differently. 

So I just did your google search. I found the Jana Reis link. The third link is this... http://tysonchunt.blogspot.com/2015/06/legalization-of-gay-marriage-lds-church.html talking about SSM as the Abomination of Desolation.

Again, I'm not suggesting that every Mormon is rude about LGBT issues but it's certainly not a rarity.

 

You've given one instance so far. That's not a very large sample.

Bear in mind that I never asserted that no Mormons ever use the word, just that it's not nearly as widespread or frequent as some (including you, apparently) would have us believe.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[snowflake]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Calling gay marriage itself an abomination and perverse probably seems like mocking and rudeness to many when there are less extreme words that convey the same idea.

The above is different than disagreement or even just using the term "immoral" to describe gay marriage.

Would it be fair to call in "sinful", as described by the Bible?

[Damien the Leper]

6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

So if I understand you correctly, you believe Mormons are rude because of what you think is "in their hearts," even if they never say or write it.

I'm reminded of Jesus intensifying the Law in Matthew 5.