A world turned on its head? Or feet?

[hagoth7]

How pliable is reality? And scripture? Can it shift like the Liahona to meet emerging needs?

Merging/dueling realities. Things that make you go hmm.

After spending years focusing on the East (Europe) and on the West (Asia) It would appear that a shift to include peoples in the southern hemisphere has come due.

For most of my earlier research on Nephites, I was focused on the northern hemisphere...because it contained my family heritage. And I distinctly recall (and remember writing about) Mormon claiming that he was a pure descendant of Nephi. (Just as I [and many others] recall Isaiah foretelling a lion laying down with a lamb.)  Am I alone in such distinct recollections?

Then, within the last few days, the wording changed in scripture.  (Cue prideful Laman/Lemuel and shifting Liahona).  And Mormon's claim now states that although descending from Nephi (Mormon 1:5) he was rather a pure descendant of *Lehi* (3 Nephi 5:20), suggesting he might also have Lamanite/Ammonite heritage - or that such a distinction didn't even matter.

And when I saw that shift, I was immediately reminded that generations before the conquistadors, many of the peoples I deem to have Nephite/Ammonite heritage left northern Europe and migrated south to Spain/Portugal...and thereby became ancestors of the vast majority of Latin Americans today.

 

Years ago, I cautioned forum members to give Latin American immigrants due respect, in the specific context/warning of how Goths were mistreated by the Roman Empire.  Romans first tried to keep Goths out of the Empire, and then after they entered, starved and mistreated them so badly...that decades later, they finally arose and toppled Rome.

It appears that caution has come full circle. About two weeks ago, I was holding a history of the Goths in my hand and entered conversation with a very nice young man with Latin American heritage...who was just sustained as a new elder two days ago. 

Moving forward, I need to shift/expand my myopic view of heritage and adoption to benefit more/all of mankind.

Thoughts?

Edited June 21, 2017 by hagoth7

[hagoth7]

Mandela effect. Dueling realities, the southern hemisphere, and millennial interests.

1. Nelson Mandela & South Africa. (My memory carried through to history, while the distinct Mandela memory of others got edited out of this ?merged? reality.)
2. Last weekend's helpful/clarifying shift in Mormon's heritage. Which expands/improves perspective to benefit more of mankind.
3. New Zealand's shift on the map (another Mandela effect). (My specific memory, years after actually travelling there, gave way to a different location on the map.)
   • Will millennial shift(s) of landmasses be as instantaneous as that?
   • And a return of Enoch's city?

How malleable is reality? With worlds created without number, what does a full restoration of all things actually entail? **If** realities/worlds can/do merge, what is involved for the cream, the best of two worlds/realities, coming out on top? Anyone familiar with Tomorrowland?

Thoughts/impressions?

Edited June 21, 2017 by hagoth7

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, hagoth7 said:

Merging/dueling realities. Several tangentially-related thoughts. Things that make you go hmm.

After spending years focusing on the East (Europe) and on the West (Asia) It would appear that a shift to include peoples in the southern hemisphere has come due.

For most of my earlier research on Nephites, I was focused on the northern hemisphere...because it contained my family heritage. And I distinctly recall (and remember writing about) Mormon claiming that he was a pure descendant of Nephi. (Just as I [and many others] recall Isaiah foretelling a lion laying down with a lamb.)  Am I alone in such distinct recollections?

Then, within the last few days, the wording changed in scripture.  (Cue prideful Laman/Lemuel and shifting Liahona).  And Mormon's claim now states that although descending from Nephi (Mormon 1:5) he was rather a pure descendant of *Lehi* (3 Nephi 5:20), suggesting he might also have Lamanite/Ammonite heritage - or that such a distinction didn't even matter.

And when I saw that shift, I was immediately reminded that generations before the conquistadors, many of the peoples I deem to have Nephite/Ammonite heritage left northern Europe and migrated south to Spain/Portugal...and thereby became ancestors of the vast majority of Latin Americans today.

 

Years ago, I cautioned forum members to give Latin American immigrants due respect, in the specific context/warning of how Goths were mistreated by the Roman Empire.  Romans first tried to keep Goths out of the Empire, and then after they entered, starved and mistreated them so badly...that decades later, they finally arose and toppled Rome.

It appears that caution has come full circle. About two weeks ago, I was holding a history of the Goths in my hand and entered conversation with a very nice young man with Latin American heritage...who was just sustained as a new elder two days ago. 

Moving forward, I need to shift/expand my myopic view of heritage and adoption more to benefit more/all of mankind.

Thoughts?

Way over my head, but still reading your posts about this! 

[hagoth7]

35 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Way over my head, but still reading your posts about this! 

Not over your head.

I just haven't offered much context.

Edited June 21, 2017 by hagoth7

[Robert F. Smith]

43 minutes ago, hagoth7 said:

Not over your head.

I just haven't offered much context.

True, and it isn't clear whether this shift has taken place in print in real time, or merely in your imagination.

[Garden Girl]

2 hours ago, hagoth7 said:

Mandela effect. Dueling realities, the southern hemisphere, and millennial interests.

How malleable is reality? With worlds created without number, what does a full restoration of all things actually entail? **If** realities/worlds can/do merge, what is involved for the cream, the best of two worlds/realities, coming out on top? Anyone familiar with Tomorrowland?

Thoughts/impressions?

Huh??

GG

[Bobbieaware]

6 hours ago, hagoth7 said:

How pliable is reality? And scripture? Can it shift like the Liahona to meet emerging needs?

Merging/dueling realities. Things that make you go hmm.

After spending years focusing on the East (Europe) and on the West (Asia) It would appear that a shift to include peoples in the southern hemisphere has come due.

For most of my earlier research on Nephites, I was focused on the northern hemisphere...because it contained my family heritage. And I distinctly recall (and remember writing about) Mormon claiming that he was a pure descendant of Nephi. (Just as I [and many others] recall Isaiah foretelling a lion laying down with a lamb.)  Am I alone in such distinct recollections?

Then, within the last few days, the wording changed in scripture.  (Cue prideful Laman/Lemuel and shifting Liahona).  And Mormon's claim now states that although descending from Nephi (Mormon 1:5) he was rather a pure descendant of *Lehi* (3 Nephi 5:20), suggesting he might also have Lamanite/Ammonite heritage - or that such a distinction didn't even matter.

And when I saw that shift, I was immediately reminded that generations before the conquistadors, many of the peoples I deem to have Nephite/Ammonite heritage left northern Europe and migrated south to Spain/Portugal...and thereby became ancestors of the vast majority of Latin Americans today.

 

Years ago, I cautioned forum members to give Latin American immigrants due respect, in the specific context/warning of how Goths were mistreated by the Roman Empire.  Romans first tried to keep Goths out of the Empire, and then after they entered, starved and mistreated them so badly...that decades later, they finally arose and toppled Rome.

It appears that caution has come full circle. About two weeks ago, I was holding a history of the Goths in my hand and entered conversation with a very nice young man with Latin American heritage...who was just sustained as a new elder two days ago. 

Moving forward, I need to shift/expand my myopic view of heritage and adoption to benefit more/all of mankind.

Thoughts?

Reading the first two posts on this thread brought back vivid memories of what it was like trying to wade through and absorb Hugh Nibley's ponderous and obscure 'The Message of the Joseph Smith Papyri, an Egyptian Endowment.' Nibley takes for granted anyone who would dare to read his exercise in theological esoterica must already be well-versed in all the subtleties of the ancient Egyptian religion and well-aware of the early Christian mystery texts. Paradoxically, the experience of reading his book was at once enlightening and baffling.

I have the feeling you've presented your thesis in such an obscure way because you fear if you expressed yourself in easy to understand terms most everyone on this board would instantly reject your idea as implausible. But I'll keep an open mind. Who am I to say there is no possibility some adventurous Lehites, like Hagoth & company, couldn't have ended up in Spain?

 

[hagoth7]

8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

...and it isn't clear whether this shift has taken place in print in real time, or merely in your imagination.

True. 

But a constructive development in either case...for me As for others, our realities are largely constructs of our own perception.  Individually and collectively. Is that not accurate?

One person can be walking thru hell, and another basking in heaven living in adjacent residences, on the same calendar day.

What if we have the freedom/power to tangibly shape the world around us? To choose what it will become?

To craft a world where tears *are* wiped away? With God, *all* things are possible.

[hagoth7]

7 hours ago, Garden Girl said:

Huh??

Specifics:

1. My perception has recently expanded (as it pertains to Lehi's promises). That things like Jacob 5 encompass both hemispheres (north and south).

2. As to exploring the practical/constructive aspects of such things (like the Mandela Effect), an observer/participant is left to conclude whether my recent experience (echoed by millions of others in other matters) was merely a matter of expanded perception/clarity, or whether the fabric of reality (the history and makeup and geography of society) is more pliable *when we* become such. When we hunger to become tender clay in the potter's hand. When at our core, we begin to breathe, thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

For you, is that a slightly better onramp to the OP?

Edited June 21, 2017 by hagoth7

[hagoth7]

2 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

Reading the first two posts on this thread brought back vivid memories of what it was like trying to wade through and absorb Hugh Nibley's... Nibley takes for granted anyone who would dare to read his exercise...must already be well-versed in all the subtleties.... Paradoxically, the experience of reading his book was at once enlightening and baffling.

Fair enough. I do presume that those sufficiently intrigued will take a few moments to google/bing/dogpile what the Mandela Effect is at it relates to the southern hemisphere (i.e. Nelson Mandela/South African history, and New Zealand geography).

2 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

I have the feeling you've presented your thesis in such an obscure way because you fear if you expressed yourself in easy to understand terms most everyone on this board would instantly reject your idea as implausible.

Not so much that but a matter of it simply being an early-draft mind dump after several days of reflection. As with most of us, more perfect in intent...imperfect in execution.

2 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

But I'll keep an open mind.

 Alma 32

2 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

Who am I to say there is no possibility some adventurous Lehites, like Ha-goth & company, couldn't have ended up in Spain?

(punctuation/emphasis added)

The keys are found in Nephite/D&C prophecy, and in such things as Goth and Visigoth origin accounts.

Left them in the ignition. Engine running.

 

Beginning in 410 AD, Goths became custodians of some of the Jewish temple treasures that had been captured by Rome in 70 AD.

As further evidenced by events recorded in Toledo in 711 AD.

Edited June 21, 2017 by hagoth7

[RevTestament]

10 hours ago, hagoth7 said:

How pliable is reality? And scripture? Can it shift like the Liahona to meet emerging needs?

Merging/dueling realities. Things that make you go hmm.

After spending years focusing on the East (Europe) and on the West (Asia) It would appear that a shift to include peoples in the southern hemisphere has come due.

For most of my earlier research on Nephites, I was focused on the northern hemisphere...because it contained my family heritage. And I distinctly recall (and remember writing about) Mormon claiming that he was a pure descendant of Nephi. (Just as I [and many others] recall Isaiah foretelling a lion laying down with a lamb.)  Am I alone in such distinct recollections?

Then, within the last few days, the wording changed in scripture.  (Cue prideful Laman/Lemuel and shifting Liahona).  And Mormon's claim now states that although descending from Nephi (Mormon 1:5) he was rather a pure descendant of *Lehi* (3 Nephi 5:20), suggesting he might also have Lamanite/Ammonite heritage - or that such a distinction didn't even matter.

While being a descendant of Lehi does leave that possibility open, what it could also be saying is that the Lamanites were no longer pure descendants of Lehi, but had mixed with Natives, which is my preferred interpretation, and explains how when they began with fewer people than the Nephites, they grew so much faster in numbers even though they were monogamous. It would also explain why their appearance changed so as to not be physically appealing to the Nephites - they began to look different besides their countenance changing to a dark countenance. 

[hagoth7]

http://beowulfinstitute.com/GothicOrigins.html

 

[RevTestament]

41 minutes ago, hagoth7 said:

Beginning in 410 AD, Goths became custodians of some of the Jewish temple treasures that had been captured by Rome in 70 AD.

As further evidenced by events recorded in Toledo in 711 AD.

The problem is every city had a strand of Christ's hair or a splinter of the cross, or....or.... Everyone wanted a piece of the action, so there is no way to determine if most of these artifacts have a shred of truth behind them - C14 dating I guess. The original temple treasures such as the ark of the covenant were probably taken by Egypt in an early raid since we don't read about it later.

[hagoth7]

18 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

While being a descendant of Lehi does leave that possibility open, what it could also be saying is that the Lamanites were no longer pure descendants of Lehi, but had mixed with Natives, which is my preferred interpretation...

Yep. We're all mutts to some degree. :0)

I was more specifically referring to Mormon's declaration of *his own* heritage.

[hagoth7]

On 6/21/2017 at 9:17 AM, RevTestament said:

The problem is every city had a strand of Christ's hair or a splinter of the cross, or....or.... Everyone wanted a piece of the action, so there is no way to determine if most of these artifacts have a shred of truth behind them - C14 dating I guess. The original temple treasures such as the ark of the covenant were probably taken by Egypt in an early raid since we don't read about it later.

Not referring to the original temple treasures.

Referring instead to the treasures of the 2nd temple, captured by Titus' legions in 70 AD.

Even modern historians (fx. Wolfram) acknowledge that the 2nd temple treasures were on display at Rome until its sack by Goths in 410 AD. Germanic treasures dating to a ruler in the same decade, and evidence from Muslims capturing Toledo three centuries later suggest that the Germanic peoples became custodians of the 2nd temple treasures as of 410 AD...contemporary with the downfall of Nephite civilization in the Americas.  East and West. Sunrise, sunset.

Edited June 22, 2017 by hagoth7

[RevTestament]

2 minutes ago, hagoth7 said:

Not referring to the original temple treasures.

Referring instead to the treasures of the 2nd temple, captured by Titus' legions in 70 AD.

Even modern historians (fx. Wolfram) acknowledge that the 2nd temple treasures were on display at Rome until its sack by Goths in 410 AD. Gallehus Horns dating to a ruler in the same decade, and evidence from Muslims capturing Toledo three centuries later suggest that the Germanic peoples became custodians of the 2nd temple treasures as of 410 AD...contemporary with the downfall of Nephite civilization in the Americas.  East and West. Sunrise, sunset.

All the tribes which either tried to rule Rome or who sacked it were eventually defeated. First the Heruli, then the Ostrogoths. Both disappeared into history. It is doubtful either were able to retain any treasures. The Vandals could have run off with them, but they themselves were later defeated by the Eastern Empire who would have taken any treasures the Vandals had, unless a few managed to escape back with said treasures to Visigothic Spain. I believe these three are prophesied as being plucked up by the little horn in Daniel 7. 

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, hagoth7 said:

............................... an early-draft mind dump ...................................................

C'mon man.  If something is worth saying, it is worth saying well.

[Avatar4321]

I'm confused what Mandela has to do with anything

[Wondering Muse]

All I can say is that it used to be "The Berenstein Bears". That's the way I remember it! 

[hagoth7]

9 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

...it is worth saying well.

? You're saying it wasn't?

I feel it was reasonably well said for an early draft.

That said, I make no claims of being as good at this English thing as some of you are.

[hagoth7]

14 hours ago, RevTestament said:

All the tribes which either tried to rule Rome or who sacked it were eventually defeated. First the Heruli, then the Ostrogoths. The Vandals....Visigothic...I believe these three are prophesied as being plucked up.... 

As to what was foretold to be uprooted, that sounds like a discussion for another thread.

14 hours ago, RevTestament said:

...by the little horn in Daniel 7. 

More important things are done by bigger horns.

(Brass and percussion are *still* supposed to perform outside, right?)

Seriously though, when it comes to prophecy, Joseph mentioned a thing or two about avoiding discussion of a few things. I believe there is wisdom there.

Edited June 22, 2017 by hagoth7

[hagoth7]

8 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

I'm confused what Mandela has to do with anything

When Nelson Mandela died in 2013, there were reportedly many who said: Wait, what? Remembering that he had instead died years earlier in prison, and that it had sparked a significant number of riots.

Ditto with New Zealand. Many are said to distinctly remember it being somewhere other than where it shows on current maps/globes (myself included...and years ago, I carefully planned and executed a memorable trip there).

 

As to whether a new reality can be fashioned from elements of two or more others, consider statements like this, (please without any tangent discussion of dinosaurs and such): "...Some, based on the teachings of Joseph Smith that the earth was organized out of existing material rather than created from nothing, have even concluded that dinosaurs never existed on this world, and that the bones we've found are actually from the destroyed remains of other planets..."

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Mormonism_and_science/Dinosaurs

 

Was Joseph's meaning only partially understood?

 

What did Joseph *really* teach regarding other worlds that might clarify such things?

Edited June 22, 2017 by hagoth7

[Robert F. Smith]

8 hours ago, hagoth7 said:

................................................................

As to whether a new reality can be fashioned from elements of two or more others, consider statements like this, (please without any tangent discussion of dinosaurs and such): "...Some, based on the teachings of Joseph Smith that the earth was organized out of existing material rather than created from nothing, have even concluded that dinosaurs never existed on this world, and that the bones we've found are actually from the destroyed remains of other planets..."..............................................

If the Earth were formed as a hodgepodge, we would not see the geologic depositional (stratigraphic) layering which we find throughout the Earth.  The formation of the Earth and solar system from pre-existing elements refers to the basic organic and inorganic materials which one finds throughout the universe.  Astrophysics already satisfactorily describes that process.  The gods presumably follow natural law in creating such systems, and it apparently takes them billions of years to do so in each case.  No  mysteries here.

[RevTestament]

9 hours ago, hagoth7 said:

Seriously though, when it comes to prophecy, Joseph mentioned a thing or two about avoiding discussion of a few things. I believe there is wisdom there.

ditto