"Preserving religious freedom in the mental health profession"

[thesometimesaint]

I know what I said. but thanks for repeating it.

[Scott Lloyd]

36 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

As a voluntary organization I'm all for various religions establishing the rules of conduct for their own members. However when dealing with the public such voluntary religious organizations should have no expectation that their members rules apply to everyone here in this life.

 

34 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

Well said. 

Who here said that they should? Certainly not I.

You two are creating Straw Man City here.

And you're derailing the thread, the topic of which is "Preserving Religious Freedom in the Mental Health Profession."

If you want to joust at straw men, please do it in a thread of your own creation.

 

 

Edited June 20, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

35 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Because of transference issues we must not posit our religious views onto our clients.

 

10 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

That's not what you said earlier. You said:

"I can not tell my clients that I'm of any religion or none."

 

6 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

I know what I said. but thanks for repeating it.

The second thing you said was quite different from the first thing.

[kllindley]

So, just a brief aside, Scott.  I can see how thesometimesaint might feel internally consistent here.  Historically in the mental health field, it was seen as an imposition of value for the therapist to even state what he or she personally believed or valued.  The client is seen as being in such a vulnerable and susceptible frame of mind in therapy, that knowing what the therapist believes might sway them. Luckily, this view is becoming rarer.  

[thesometimesaint]

No it isn't. The first was that as a mental health professional I can't tell my clients my religious beliefs, even if asked. The second one is reason behind the first.  Our clients comes to us in search of help with mental health issues. We occupy a privileged place. To use that privileged place in our clients life as a tool for our own purposes violates that privilege.

[MormonVideoGame]

17 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

I'm an LAMFT until probably January when I'll be an LMFT. I'm a state licensed therapist....I'm pretty sure I've already told you and the people here more than once this exact same thing. At some point going over my credentials every time I talk about my field to the exact same person/people gets pretty annoying. As I mentioned, I'm not AASECT certified and just, ironically, had a conversation with my boss about this (who is). Though he did it for the business it would have minimal effect on my actual career or practice, but would entail tons of money being dished out for a piece of paper that tells me something I already do for a supervisor meeting that I already have to discuss and get tips that my boss has mentioned wasn't actually all that ground breaking or extra beneficial. I'm more likely to shoot for an MFT supervision certificate, which would actually help the business I am in when the time comes.

I am not sure how "licensed marriage and family therapist" makes you a mental health expert, please explain. Is LMFT the equivalent to an MD or PhD? Do you go to graduate school for that? Aren't AASECT certified therapists the best therapists? 

Edited June 20, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[Calm]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_credentials_in_psychology

"Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist (LMFT) – Master's in Marriage and Family Therapy and/or psychology required, plus two years of supervised experience, plus passing the licensing exam"

[MormonVideoGame]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_credentials_in_psychology

"Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist (LMFT) – Master's in Marriage and Family Therapy and/or psychology required, plus two years of supervised experience, plus passing the licensing exam"

I still don't get how a masters in Marriage and Family therapy makes you a mental health expert.  Is LMFT the equivalent to an MD? PhD? Isn't AASECT certified better?

and isn't LMFT different in every state? in Utah?  I am confused 

[thesometimesaint]

6 minutes ago, kllindley said:

So, just a brief aside, Scott.  I can see how thesometimesaint might feel internally consistent here.  Historically in the mental health field, it was seen as an imposition of value for the therapist to even state what he or she personally believed or valued.  The client is seen as being in such a vulnerable and susceptible frame of mind in therapy, that knowing what the therapist believes might sway them. Luckily, this view is becoming rarer.  

Yes and no. Obviously we can't escape our religious ideals. We still rightfully use our religious ideals to inform our decisions in treatment. IE; Treating our clients with respect and individual dignity in their own pursuits. We are not, nor should we be, in the business to impose our religious beliefs on our clients. For good or ill. IE; As an LDS I'm am free to believe homosexual actions are sinful to God. What I can not do is use my therapist position to convince them that their action are sinful.

[thesometimesaint]

3 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

I still don't get how a masters in Marriage and Family therapy makes you a mental health expert.  Is LMFT the equivalent to an MD? PhD? Isn't AASECT certified better?

and isn't LMFT different in every state? in Utah?  I am confused 

Not really. An MD may or may not be skilled in mental health issues. A LMFT has post graduate work of at least two years in mental health issues.

[pogi]

19 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

I still don't get how a masters in Marriage and Family therapy makes you a mental health expert.  Is LMFT the equivalent to an MD? PhD? Isn't AASECT certified better?

and isn't LMFT different in every state? in Utah?  I am confused 

She said mental health "professional" to be precise, not "expert".  An LMFT is a mental health professional (not sure what your beef is), some are more expert than others - that is fairly subjective and relative.  I consider her the expert on these boards. 

 P.S. different letters behind your name hints at their specialty, but it doesn't necessarily mean they are "better" or more "expert" at what they do.  I have met several advanced practice nurses whom I would consider far more expert in what they do than many M.D's practicing in the same field.  Just sayin!

Edited June 20, 2017 by pogi

[Gray]

7 hours ago, pogi said:

I am sorry you feel that way and can only hope that such will never be the case.

Holistic nursing principles were the cornerstone of my practice as a hospice nurse...and for good reason.  There is plenty of good evidence for the benefit of not just implementing physical/emotional interventions, but also spiritual interventions.

Good article here (Read this section: RESEARCH ON THE ROLE OF SPIRITUALITY IN HEALTH CARE)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1305900/

A few interesting snippets:

As a case manager, not only did I create spiritual interventions and implement them as a nurse based on the individual needs of my patients, but I also coordinated Chaplain services.  Chaplains are an integral part of the health care team (not just hospice).

To ban holistic care would be a tragic mistake!
 

Hmm, when you said holistic I had in mind any number of kooky alternative medicine practices. I didn't have Chaplain services in mind, and I certainly have nothing against spiritual interventions from someone like a chaplain working at a hospital.

You're dealing with a medical lay person here, so I thank you for your patience.

[Gray]

6 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

Not usually. Seriously. But more importantly the big issue is when weak evidence is used to deny other methods.

At a certain point we should just be up front to people that science doesn't know. Appeals to the best evidence when the evidence is lousy is just misleading at best.

Could you provide an example to help illustrate?

[Gray]

5 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

This is nutty. Nothing whatsoever in his speech could be reasonably construed to mean he was referring to "conversion therapy." You are imposing guilt by innuendo and it is shameful. Stop it.

I believe Elder Wickman made a good case that threats of religious discrimination are emerging in the mental health care profession.

What he said sounds like it could be consistent with conversion therapy, but I said from the beginning that that was only my impression, and I didn't know what he meant. I've been 100% respectful.

[Scott Lloyd]

 

57 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 

 

The second thing you said was quite different from the first thing.

 

42 minutes ago, kllindley said:

So, just a brief aside, Scott.  I can see how thesometimesaint might feel internally consistent here.  Historically in the mental health field, it was seen as an imposition of value for the therapist to even state what he or she personally believed or valued.  The client is seen as being in such a vulnerable and susceptible frame of mind in therapy, that knowing what the therapist believes might sway them. Luckily, this view is becoming rarer.  

 

37 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

No it isn't. The first was that as a mental health professional I can't tell my clients my religious beliefs, even if asked. The second one is reason behind the first.  Our clients comes to us in search of help with mental health issues. We occupy a privileged place. To use that privileged place in our clients life as a tool for our own purposes violates that privilege.

I get that it's your personal policy not to tell your client your religious beliefs even if asked. What you seemed to be saying, however, is that this is a universally adhered-to policy in the mental health profession, which I question. kllindley contradicts you on that assertion, and it isn't even supported by the code of ethics you quoted, though you implied that it was.

So, while I understand that it is the accepted practice to try not to impose one's personal values on a client, that does not preclude a provider from being selective about who he or she accepts as client, even, in the case of LDS Family Services, requiring a bishop's referral in advance. Nor, apparently, does it preclude an LDS therapist or other professional from disclosing or acknowledging, if asked, that he or she does hold to LDS values. According to kllindley, the view is becoming rarer in the field that the professional should be forbidden from disclosing what he or she believes.

[clarkgoble]

18 minutes ago, Gray said:

Could you provide an example to help illustrate?

Mouse models in medicine being the obvious example. It's evidence but weak evidence and most of the time wrong. And that's way stronger evidence than most of what you find for particular therapeutic theories. 

If you want an other one just look at the controversy over "evidence" for psychotherapy. Admittedly I doubt many therapists relevant to this discussion would use that methodology. But there are still a lot of psychotherapists out there.

Edited June 20, 2017 by clarkgoble

[boblloyd91]

So I'm glad this topic was brought up as I'm a therapist who works with those who have mental health and substance abuse issues. One thing that was reiterated over and over again in my schooling was the importance of respecting diversity and being culturally competent. I was expected to be sensitive to and aware of sexual diversity (LGBT). It has always been a tightrope for me to walk as their pain is real, and I don't want to be harsh or judgmental when they need someone to talk to (there is a very high risk of suicide in this group). However I also worry if I were to validate too much I would be giving them motivation to make lifestyle choices that would go against gospel principles and possibly put me at risk of condemnation. It's tough.

[pogi]

3 hours ago, Gray said:

Hmm, when you said holistic I had in mind any number of kooky alternative medicine practices. I didn't have Chaplain services in mind, and I certainly have nothing against spiritual interventions from someone like a chaplain working at a hospital.

You're dealing with a medical lay person here, so I thank you for your patience.

No worries, I guess I should have clarified.  "Holisitic" medicine is a field that focuses on the well-being of the "whole" person.  Instead of focusing on physical symptoms only, the philosophy of holistsic care is centered around promoting wellness and balance between the psycho/social, spiritual, emotional and physical states of a person.  RNs and MDs can specialize in holistic care, and I find it a much more healthful approach to medical care.  Most medical practitioners neglect most aspects of well-being in favor of treating only physical symptoms.  It turns out that our physical health is much more interconnected with our emotional and spiritual states than previously realized. 

Yes, there are plenty of kooks out there that practice holistic care, but one cannot deny the effects of the placebo.  Faith healing works. 

Edited June 21, 2017 by pogi

[Scott Lloyd]

6 hours ago, Gray said:

What he said sounds like it could be consistent with conversion therapy, but I said from the beginning that that was only my impression, and I didn't know what he meant. I've been 100% respectful.

The Church does not even hold to "conversion therapy" anymore. Has not done so for many decades. It is a thing of the distant pass.

The notion Elder Wickman was referring to conversion therapy was outlandish, totally out-of-the-blue and unsupported by anything he said in his speech.

 

Edited June 21, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

6 minutes ago, boblloyd91 said:

So I'm glad this topic was brought up as I'm a therapist who works with those who have mental health and substance abuse issues. One thing that was reiterated over and over again in my schooling was the importance of respecting diversity and being culturally competent. I was expected to be sensitive to and aware of sexual diversity (LGBT). It has always been a tightrope for me to walk as their pain is real, and I don't want to be harsh or judgmental when they need someone to talk to (there is a very high risk of suicide in this group). However I also worry if I were to validate too much I would be giving them motivation to make lifestyle choices that would go against gospel principles and possibly put me at risk of condemnation. It's tough.

It is clear you are in a sensitive position.

Your lot should not be made yet more difficult by governmental or societal forces that refuse to recognize and respect your right to personal religious freedom as you carry forward your professional practice.

[BlueDreams]

52 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

I am not sure how "licensed marriage and family therapist" makes you a mental health expert, please explain. Is LMFT the equivalent to an MD or PhD? Do you go to graduate school for that? Aren't AASECT certified therapists the best therapists? 

TSS is right about MD. Medical professionals are not necessarily the same or well trained in mental health concerns. And no, AASECT certified therapists aren't necessarily the best therapists. They're more likely to have experience and some sensitivity/SAR's training that other therapists don't receive. A number of schools don't have even a single sexuality class in their grad program (BYU does for the record). But it honestly offers little more beyond what experience and a supervisor who works with sexual concerns can't give. AASECT people also don't have to be therapists to join. They also train sexuality "educators." Most therapists I know simply aren't well equipped to handle sexual problems or to address them in couples. They lack the training, comfort, and exposure. So the certification gives an easy indicator that they've had some basic level of training or exposure to this field. I do have training in this, receive adequate supervision, and the vast majority of my clients are dealing with sexual concerns of some sort. Plus, it's pretty easy to tell this is my area of expertise by the company name. This is why it doesn't offer much for me, minus a large bill.   

37 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

I still don't get how a masters in Marriage and Family therapy makes you a mental health expert.  Is LMFT the equivalent to an MD? PhD? Isn't AASECT certified better?

and isn't LMFT different in every state? in Utah?  I am confused 

Well you could google what a mental health professional is for starters. Like wikipedia's explanation: 

"A mental health professional is a health care practitioner or community services provider who offers services for the purpose of improving an individual's mental health or to treat mental disorders. "

Later down they list common degrees for varying branches as a mental health professional. MFT is one of them. I'm not exactly sure what you're missing. I got my degree, applied for associate license, took the test, and am well on my way to the 4000 hrs I need in the state of UT to be and LMFT. That's how

And the way that state laws are set up means that each state have different licensing laws or qualifications. THey're generally pretty close in expectations, but the legal side means you have to meet those. So moving to another state doesn't make me not a therapist, magically. It usually means that I will need to take and exam or something like it to be re-lisenced in another state....or in layman's terms receive permission to practice in that specific state. 

 

So yeah, I'm a mental health professional. 

With luv,

BD

[USU78]

4 minutes ago, boblloyd91 said:

So I'm glad this topic was brought up as I'm a therapist who works with those who have mental health and substance abuse issues. One thing that was reiterated over and over again in my schooling was the importance of respecting diversity and being culturally competent. I was expected to be sensitive to and aware of sexual diversity (LGBT). It has always been a tightrope for me to walk as their pain is real, and I don't want to be harsh or judgmental when they need someone to talk to (there is a very high risk of suicide in this group). However I also worry if I were to validate too much I would be giving them motivation to make lifestyle choices that would go against gospel principles and possibly put me at risk of condemnation. It's tough.

Look ... I'm an attorney. In the xviiith-xixth centuries there were few ethical rules. In the xxth-xxist centuries those rules exploded and continue to explode.

After nearly 35 years in service, I've come to some conclusions that are relevant here.

1. There's no particular rightness or wrongness to the rules, and your moral/ethical sense is more valuable than the codified rules. The argument from their authority is inevitably circular, self-referential, and fallacious.

2. You leave your moral and ethical fingerprints on everything you touch.

3. Ethical rules are crafted as they are in order to protect entrenched interests.

4. Ethical rules are crafted to be used to punish the unpopular ... If Carolina cheats, VMI better watch out. The dangerous aren't particularly punished, only the unpopular.

5. Doing right is far more valuable than obeying arcane rules cynically adopted to benefit the entrenched and the popular.

 

[MormonVideoGame]

43 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

TSS is right about MD. Medical professionals are not necessarily the same or well trained in mental health concerns. And no, AASECT certified therapists aren't necessarily the best therapists. They're more likely to have experience and some sensitivity/SAR's training that other therapists don't receive. A number of schools don't have even a single sexuality class in their grad program (BYU does for the record).

You a family and marriage therapist or a sex therapist? or are both the same thing? Sorry for so many questions, I am confused and a little skeptical because many therapists (with a PhD in Psychology) don't have your views. Or is it because you earned your LAMFT in BYU? I guess BYU is simply different? 

1 hour ago, BlueDreams said:

am well on my way to the 4000 hrs I need in the state of UT to be and LMFT. That's how

Maybe UT is why I am a little skeptical. Therapy is a soft science, and even the professionals can have a lot of confirmation bias.  

1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said:

 A LMFT has post graduate work of at least two years in mental health issues.

So a  "Licensed Clinical Social Worker (LCSW) – Master of Social Work required, plus three years of supervised experience, and continuing education" 

I say MD because some mental health experts are MDs, like psychiatrists for example. 

[ttribe]

8 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

You a family and marriage therapist or a sex therapist? or are both the same thing? Sorry for so many questions, I am confused and a little skeptical because many therapists (with a PhD in Psychology) don't have your views. Or is it because you earned your LAMFT in BYU? I guess BYU is simply different? 

Maybe UT is why I am a little skeptical. Therapy is a soft science, and even the professionals can have a lot of confirmation bias.  

So a  "Licensed Clinical Social Worker (LCSW) – Master of Social Work required, plus three years of supervised experience, and continuing education" 

I say MD because some mental health experts are MDs, like psychiatrists for example. 

Psychiatrists are MDs trained in mental health issues who can prescribe medicines.  They typically do not provide any kind of cognitive therapy.  A psychologist usually has a Ph.D. and may provide cognitive therapy, but cannot prescribe medications.  Many professionals with PhD.s in Psychology are in academia or research posts.  Various states also have a designation associated with licensure as a mental health therapist which usually requires a master's level degree in one of several different majors of study (e.g. Social Work, Counseling, etc.).  All of these professionals fall under the broader umbrella of "mental health experts."

[MormonVideoGame]

4 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Psychiatrists are MDs trained in mental health issues who can prescribe medicines.  They typically do not provide any kind of cognitive therapy.  A psychologist usually has a Ph.D. and may provide cognitive therapy, but cannot prescribe medications.  Many professionals with PhD.s in Psychology are in academia or research posts.  Various states also have a designation associated with licensure as a mental health therapist which usually requires a master's level degree in one of several different majors of study (e.g. Social Work, Counseling, etc.).  All of these professionals fall under the broader umbrella of "mental health experts."

Yes I don't dispute any of that