Same gender sexual relations: Do Scriptures show a pattern of God's endorsement or approval?

[Meerkat]

51 minutes ago, california boy said:

 I personally think that church leaders will be held accountable for teaching this doctrine just like those leaders that taught that blacks could not receive temple ordinances.  Church leaders may have good intentions, but it was unequivocally wrong.  Forbidding to marry is also unequivocally wrong.  Perhaps that is why church leaders have yet to claim any revelation from God on forbidding gay couples to marry.  

How does the Plan of Salvation work eternally in a gay marriage?  How did the temporary ban on blacks and the priesthood overturn the Plan of Salvation?  There is a difference.

Edited June 18, 2017 by Meerkat

[california boy]

2 minutes ago, Meerkat said:

How does the Plan of Salvation work eternally in a gay marriage?  How did blacks and the priesthood overturn the Plan of Salvation?  There is a difference.

It works just the same as it does for every other couple.  Spirit children are created, not impregated for heavens sake.  You think your wife is going to be pregnant producing billions of kids?  That idea is ridiculous.  The scriptures mention in several places that "the gods" created the earth.  Can not those gods be two male?  Name one thing a gay couple could not do in eternity that a straight couple can do that you know for sure of.

 

[JLHPROF]

Just now, california boy said:

Spirit children are created, not impregated for heavens sake.  You think your wife is going to be pregnant producing billions of kids?  That idea is ridiculous.

You have absolutely no way of knowing that.  Either Father means Father or it doesn't.

Quote

The scriptures mention in several places that "the gods" created the earth.  Can not those gods be two male?  Name one thing a gay couple could not do in eternity that a straight couple can do that you know for sure of.

No, those Gods cannot be two males.
Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

God = Male + Female.
A homosexual couple cannot achieve godhood.  At best they will " remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity;" because they "did not abide my law".
At worst, well...

[Jude2]

54 minutes ago, california boy said:

 I personally think that church leaders will be held accountable for teaching this doctrine just like those leaders that taught that blacks could not receive temple ordinances.

 

Forbidding to marry can mean the Catholic priest who are forbidden, there have been several different small sects who forbid marriage, the way you twisted that passage is amazing. 

 

The law of marriage is built on a covenant and those who enter into that covenant are promised  "  ...which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever". The Lord can not make such a covenant with two men or two women in this life or the next. He won't make a promise he can not keep! 

 

 

[california boy]

20 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

You have absolutely no way of knowing that.  Either Father means Father or it doesn't.

No, those Gods cannot be two males.
Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

God = Male + Female.
A homosexual couple cannot achieve godhood.  At best they will " remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity;" because they "did not abide my law".
At worst, well...

Well you just gave me the very best reason ever to be gay.  I can't imagine my partner being pregnant for eternity creating billions of spirit children.  Does you wife know this is her job for eternity?

Funny, I think i recall Joseph Smith saying that the gods mentioned in creating the earth in Genesis were many of the noble and great ones.  Adam, Abraham and I think he included himself helped in creating the earth.  Does any of this sound familiar or are you going to make me look it up?

[Bobbieaware]

36 minutes ago, california boy said:

It works just the same as it does for every other couple.  Spirit children are created, not impregated for heavens sake.  You think your wife is going to be pregnant producing billions of kids?  That idea is ridiculous.  The scriptures mention in several places that "the gods" created the earth.  Can not those gods be two male?  Name one thing a gay couple could not do in eternity that a straight couple can do that you know for sure of.

 

The scriptures teach us that in the resurrection our bodies will be wholly and fully restored in every way, with every organ and even the hairs of our heads restored to their proper place and function. It's extremely presumptuous on your part to imagine that in the resurrection male and female sex organs won't also be restored to their proper place and function. And in consideration of the fact that exalted men and women will be endowed with the eternal fulness of divine power, there is no reason to believe their reproductive organs won't be capacitated to function at a much greater degree of glorious functionality than the degree of functionality of those sacred organs now experienced before the resurrection. Just as glorious resurrected beings appear to be able to effortlessly pass through walls and travel millions of lights years in an instant, I have every reason to believe the reproductive systems of exalted men and women will be capacitated by infinite and eternal power to bring forth endless myriads spirit children who will be the literal seeds of exalted gods and goddesses.

 

Edited June 18, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[CV75]

11 hours ago, Meerkat said:

Where in the scriptures, ancient or modern, can I find a pattern of God endorsing or approving same sex sexual relationships?  Can that position be supported in scripture?  If so, how?  If not, why not?

I think the “we” and the “us” in D&C 130:1-2 refer to the covenant people. “When the Savior shall appear we shall see him as he is. We shall see that he is a man like ourselves. And that same sociality which exists among us here will exist among us there, only it will be coupled with eternal glory, which glory we do not now enjoy.”

This sociality is based in the covenant and order given to Abraham (“this [highest] order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]” per D&C 131:1-2) which is explained further in D&C 132:29-32:

“Abraham received all things, whatsoever he received, by revelation and commandment, by my word, saith the Lord, and hath entered into his exaltation and sitteth upon his throne. Abraham received promises concerning his seed, and of the fruit of his loins—from whose loins ye are, namely, my servant Joseph—which were to continue so long as they were in the world; and as touching Abraham and his seed, out of the world they should continue; both in the world and out of the world should they continue as innumerable as the stars; or, if ye were to count the sand upon the seashore ye could not number them. This promise is yours also, because ye are of Abraham, and the promise was made unto Abraham; and by this law is the continuation of the works of my Father, wherein he glorifieth himself. Go ye, therefore, and do the works of Abraham; enter ye into my law and ye shall be saved.”

I suppose that same-sex relationships might exist in the hereafter if the Lord permits them in certain immortal kingdoms just as He permits them in this mortal telestial kingdom (that notion is not scriptural), but these are not of the same sociality that exists among the covenant people in the kingdom of God on earth and which rests upon family, or upon the union and independent perpetuation of the two scripturally-referenced genders (male and female) as an eternal round, the same past-present-future sociality and order, which is the exaltation in scripture.

Edited June 18, 2017 by CV75

[california boy]

21 minutes ago, Jude2 said:

 

Forbidding to marry can mean the Catholic priest who are forbidden, there have been several different small sects who forbid marriage, the way you twisted that passage is amazing. 

 

The law of marriage is built on a covenant and those who enter into that covenant are promised  "  ...which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever". The Lord can not make such a covenant with two men or two women in this life or the next. He won't make a promise he can not keep! 

 

 

Forbidding to marry is forbidding to marry no matter who is doing the forbidding.  The scripture is pretty straight forward.  How would you interpret 

Quote

 

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3Forbidding to marry,

 

Does the church forbid to marry? Are we in latter times?   The only twisting of the scripture that has to be done is to rationalize the church doing exactly what was prophesied and then claim they aren't doing that.

Just wondering about your last statement.  Do you know for absolute certainty how spirit children are formed?

[california boy]

3 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

The scriptures teach us that in the resurrection our bodies will be wholly and fully restored in every way, with every organ and even the hairs of our heads restored to their proper place and function. It's extremely presumptuous on your part to imagine that in the resurrection male and female sex organs won't also be restored to their proper place and function. And in consideration of the fact that exalted men and women will be endowed with the eternal fulness of divine power, there is no reason to believe their reproductive organs won't be capacitated to function at a much greater degree of glorious functionality than the degree of functionality of those sacred organs now experienced before the resurrection. Just as glorious resurrected beings appear to be able to effortlessly pass through walls and travel millions of lights years in an instant, I have every reason to believe the reproductive systems of exalted men and women will be capacitated by infinite and eternal power to bring forth endless myriads spirit children who will be the literal seeds of exalted gods and goddesses.

 

Who said that male and female sex organs won't be restored?  I never said that.  

So Bobbie, tell me exactly how spirit children are created.  You seem to be so sure how it is done, i would love to hear your belief.  If you could tell me what part of your belief is speculation on your part and what part is actually from God, that would be helpful as well.  

[Traela]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

What a sad thing to think about your brothers and sisters. What must you think of childless straight couples?

Children or lack thereof has nothing to do with it.  It takes both a man and a woman together to make a complete unit of society/the human family.  To say that a homosexual union is in any way the same would mean that either men and women are interchangeable (not true), or that one sex is unnecessary and dispensable- sexist as well obviously untrue biologically.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Yes, but St Paul says that they who have not the Law (Gospel) are a law unto themselves -- and will be judged thereby.  This presumably includes those who adopt a gay lifestyle, but who have not received the Gospel.  Rejection of that Gospel puts one in a different category.  Most people who have lived on Earth have not heard the Gospel, and will presumably hear it on the other side.

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

See Jacob Milgrom, “Does the Bible Prohibit Homosexuality,” Bible Review, 9/6 (Dec 1993):11ff., online at http://members.bib-arch.org/publication.asp?PubID=BSBR&Volume=9&Issue=6&ArticleID=3 , which brought reader replies in BR 10/2 at http://members.bib-arch.org/search.asp?PubID=BSBR&Volume=10&Issue=02&ArticleID=01 .   His arguments are based on Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13, and on Jewish tradition. However, Milgrom applies that rule only to Jews living in the Holy Land -- let other nations do what they will.

I think these remarks highlight that same-gender union is a law unto itself and not unto God, and that the marriage "sociality," priesthood order and covenants, and works of Abraham are. As with the Jews to the Holy Land and the antediluvian saints to Zion, the Lord's pattern is to gather covenant people to their lands of promise with the aim of perpetuating His people's "sociality."

[thesometimesaint]

1 hour ago, USU78 said:

I was thinking more of legal troubles, addictive behaviors, and dropping out, but whatever floats your boat

There is still a lot of legal troubles to address, particularly in the area of divorce. But I'm more concerned about state actions like Texas denying children of Gay parents help. 

[thesometimesaint]

1 hour ago, Garden Girl said:

Hello TSS...

And not just because of SSM issues... 

GG

Edit to Add... It's not just Levitical law...  JLHPROF just added Romans 1:26-27 and 1st Cor 6:9-10

Not too sure many LDS would want to live under Paul's idea's either. Though they are markedly better than the Old Testament ones.

[USU78]

24 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

There is still a lot of legal troubles to address, particularly in the area of divorce. But I'm more concerned about state actions like Texas denying children of Gay parents help. 

You are nothing if not true to the DNC talking points. Well done

[USU78]

20 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Not too sure many LDS would want to live under Paul's idea's either. Though they are markedly better than the Old Testament ones.

What an unmormon thing to say.

[Bobbieaware]

3 hours ago, california boy said:

Who said that male and female sex organs won't be restored?  I never said that.  

So Bobbie, tell me exactly how spirit children are created.  You seem to be so sure how it is done, i would love to hear your belief.  If you could tell me what part of your belief is speculation on your part and what part is actually from God, that would be helpful as well.  

It will happen the same way it happens on earth, but at a much more powerful and accelerated pace. Because spirit children will have real fathers and mothers, and won't be created like the storybook character Pinocchio, there will be the same kind of close spiritual/biological bonds with the heavenly parents as we now feel with our own earthly mothers and fathers because of the incomparable closeness that comes with biological bonds.

Who can even begin to imagine what will happen to the male and female reproductive systems once they are infused with infinite and eternal divine power? Are you aware of the fact that even on this fallen sphere an average of 250 million sperm are released during sex? Now all God has to do is greatly increase the number of female eggs and we're off to the races.

I believe part of your problem is you're leaving the dynamic action of transformative infinite and eternal power out of your thought equations. You might as well might be asking me how it's possible that exalted beings will be able to travel millions of light years in an instant? And my answer would be the same -- all things, in righteousness, are possible with a God who,possesses infinite and eternal knowledge and power. As Jesus said, with God all things are possible. But you go ahead and guffaw and mock all you want, for me  it's nothing more that a few drops of water off a duck's back

Edited June 18, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[california boy]

20 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

It will happen the same way it happens on earth, but at a much more powerful and accelerated pace. Because spirit children will have real fathers and mothers, and won't be created like the storybook charater Pinocchio, there will be the same kind of close spiritual/biological bonds with the heavenly parents as we now feel with our own earthly mothers and fathers because of the incomparable closeness that comes with biological bonds.

Who can even begin to imagine what will happen to the male and female reproductive systems once they are infused with infinite and eternal divine power? Are you aware of the fact that even on this fallen sphere an average of 250 million sperm are released during sex? Now all God has to do is greatly increase the number of female eggs and we're off to the races.

I believe part of your problem is you're leaving the dynamic action of transformative infinite and eternal power out of your thought equations. You might as well might be asking me how it's possible that exalted beings will be able to travel millions of light years in an instant? And my answer would be the same -- all things, in righteousness, are possible with a God who,possesses infinite and eternal knowledge and power. As Jesus said, with God all things are possible. But you go ahead and guffaw and mock all you want, for me  it's nothing more that a few drops of water off a duck's back

You do realize ALL of this is speculation on your part.  Why is your speculation any better than mine?

Actually I don't have any problems at all. Quite frankly, having billions of spirit children is not really something that I am all that interested in.  Perhaps that is why I am gay.  Maybe there are more jobs in heaven than being eternally reproducing.  Sounds like a full time job.  And not a particularly interesting one for me.  I am much more interested in creative things and conceptualizing new ideas.  Maybe I will be the decorator of a newly formed planet.  Like I said, this is all speculation.  On both of our parts.

I do agree all things, in righteousness, are possible with a God who possesses infinite and eternal knowledge and power.  I think we should both keep that in mind.  

I am sorry you feel  I have guffaw and mocked you.  I thought I asked you pretty sincerely a question that I wanted to know your belief of.  I also asked what has been revealed to us by God.  I  certainly am not aware of anything from God himself on how spirits are created.  

[thesometimesaint]

33 minutes ago, USU78 said:

You are nothing if not true to the DNC talking points. Well done

I'm not a Democrat.

[thesometimesaint]

33 minutes ago, USU78 said:

What an unmormon thing to say.

Do you force your wife to be silent in church? 

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

You have absolutely no way of knowing that.  Either Father means Father or it doesn't.

No, those Gods cannot be two males.
Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

God = Male + Female.
A homosexual couple cannot achieve godhood.  At best they will " remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity;" because they "did not abide my law".
At worst, well...

I don't think too many gay couples want to try to achieve Godhood or have their own world, because I don't think they believe it's in the Bible. 

[mrmarklin]

The idea of the modern marriage vow is largely a social construct in that married couples can obtain various benefits due to marital status. This construct descends from God's original intent, but is obviously now very corrupt. Modern governments have arrogated God's authority. 

 

The LDS marriage is not technically a marriage as the world understands it, but a sealing of covenants made by the Holy Spirit of Promise. 

Any other "marriage " is not recognized by God. God has no use for secular marriages and only tolerates the social construct in church so that people aren't living in sin. To this extent He bends a bit. But He still works toward a finalization of a temple sealing. There are even classes for this.

Many other Christian religions, particularly the Catholics are the same. Technically in the Catholic Church one is living in sin until the marriage is sanctioned by the Church.  

The primary reason the church opposed gay marriage so it doesn't get caught up in the social construct imposed by secular governments that have already imposed "discrimination " rules etc  on these constructs. Unfortunately, the church must abide by a certain amount of this social construct so that members can obtain secular benefits and our clergy can perform secular marriages while also performing the sacred sealing rites.

[MormonVideoGame]

3 hours ago, california boy said:

 Church leaders may have good intentions, but it was unequivocally wrong.  Forbidding to marry is also unequivocally wrong.  Perhaps that is why church leaders have yet to claim any revelation from God on forbidding gay couples to marry.  

Agree, it is probably not good for mental health, but why would God allow his church to forbid gay marriage? Isn't the church a church of revelation? In Old Testament times God was quick to condemn idolatry, why isn't he quick to condemn gay marriage prohibition?  

3 hours ago, california boy said:

always condemn those relationships that are outside of marriage...   Forbidding to marry is also unequivocally wrong.  

So is forbidding sex before marriage, that is a reason why many Mormons get married very young.  

Frankly I doubt the church is going to change much, I honestly don't think it is ever going to change it's gay marriage policy. 

Edited June 18, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[Jude2]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

Forbidding to marry is forbidding to marry no matter who is doing the forbidding.  The scripture is pretty straight forward.  How would you interpret 

Does the church forbid to marry? Are we in latter times?   The only twisting of the scripture that has to be done is to rationalize the church doing exactly what was prophesied and then claim they aren't doing that.

Just wondering about your last statement.  Do you know for absolute certainty how spirit children are formed?

At the opening of 1 Tim Paul deliberately points out that homosexual behavior is part of lawless and disobedient behavior;

6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient,….
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, … and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

If you are righteous man you have no need to have the law there to point out what is against God’s wil, you know it instinctively. Only the lawless needs to have a laundry list laid out to him, 

Paul is not going to condemn those who ‘defile themselves with mankind’ and then three chapters later say they aught to get married. 

[USU78]

51 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Do you force your wife to be silent in church? 

The Mormon position is that the Gospel's the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. The OT is not barbaric or vile. That's a sectarian falsehood

[clarkgoble]

53 minutes ago, USU78 said:

The Mormon position is that the Gospel's the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. The OT is not barbaric or vile. That's a sectarian falsehood

The fulness of the gospel was not given to the Children of Israel by Moses nor afterwards. Some had it but not everyone. Further much of the OT we have is the result of uninspired scribes who compiled the existing texts redacting, deleting full texts and so forth.