Meerkat Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 (edited) Where in the scriptures, ancient or modern, can I find a pattern of God endorsing or approving same sex sexual relationships? Can that position be supported in scripture? If so, how? If not, why not? Edited June 18, 2017 by Meerkat
Bobbieaware Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, Meerkat said: Where in the scriptures, ancient or modern, can I find a pattern of God endorsing or approving same sex sexual relationships? Can that position be supported in scripture? If so, how? If not, why not? For starters: 26 And I, God, said unto mine Only Begotten, which was with me from the beginning: Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and it was so. And I, God, said: Let them have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 And I, God, created man in mine own image, in the image of mine Only Begotten created I him; male and female created I them. 28 And I, God, blessed them and said unto them (the males and the females) : Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. (Moses 2) and... 18 And I, the Lord God, said unto mine Only Begotten, that it was not good that the man should be alone; wherefore, I will make an help meet for him... 21 And I, the Lord God, caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam; and he slept, and I took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh in the stead thereof; 22 And the rib which I, the Lord God, had taken from man, made I a woman, and brought her unto the man. 23 And Adam said: This I know now is bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of man. 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife; and they shall be one flesh. (Moses 3) and... 14 And the Gods said: Let us make an help meet for the man, for it is not good that the man should be alone, therefore we will form an help meet for him. 15 And the Gods caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam; and he slept, and they took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in the stead thereof; 16 And of the rib which the Gods had taken from man, formed they a woman, and brought her unto the man. 17 And Adam said: This was bone of my bones, and fleshof my flesh; now she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of man; 18 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife, and they shall be one flesh. (Abraham 5) Edited June 18, 2017 by Bobbieaware 4
Gray Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, Meerkat said: Where in the scriptures, ancient or modern, can I find a pattern of God endorsing or approving same sex sexual relationships? Can that position be supported in scripture? If so, how? If not, why not? Gay marriage is never touched upon directly in the scriptures. But the larger principles taught in all scriptures testify that gay marriage is holy, just as straight marriage is. It's really all just the same thing, the principles are the same. Edited June 18, 2017 by Gray 1
Bobbieaware Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 15 minutes ago, Gray said: Gay marriage is never touched upon directly in the scriptures. But the larger principles taught in all scriptures testify that gay marriage is holy, just as straight marriage is. It's really all just the same thing, the principles are the same. Please set forth some and elucidate some of those "larger principles" that would make gay marriage holy?
Traela Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 2 hours ago, Gray said: Gay marriage is never touched upon directly in the scriptures. But the larger principles taught in all scriptures testify that gay marriage is holy, just as straight marriage is. It's really all just the same thing, the principles are the same. It's not the same thing at all. Heterosexual marriage creates a new unit of the human family. Gay "marriage" does not. It is, at best, a dim, poor-quality copy. 1
thesometimesaint Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 Gay families. SEE https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2016/03/the-kids/472338/
USU78 Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 6 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: Gay families. SEE https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2016/03/the-kids/472338/ Given the numbers on risk factors associated with homosexual parentage, I fund these quaint tales paint a very incomplete picture, don't you? 1
Robert F. Smith Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 31 minutes ago, Traela said: It's not the same thing at all. Heterosexual marriage creates a new unit of the human family. Gay "marriage" does not. It is, at best, a dim, poor-quality copy. Yes, but St Paul says that they who have not the Law (Gospel) are a law unto themselves -- and will be judged thereby. This presumably includes those who adopt a gay lifestyle, but who have not received the Gospel. Rejection of that Gospel puts one in a different category. Most people who have lived on Earth have not heard the Gospel, and will presumably hear it on the other side. 1
stemelbow Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 8 hours ago, Meerkat said: Where in the scriptures, ancient or modern, can I find a pattern of God endorsing or approving same sex sexual relationships? Can that position be supported in scripture? If so, how? If not, why not? Scripture reflects largely the traditional rules, priorities and values of their time and place as the, most often, anonymous authors try and paint a unique picture of their peoples' or single person's dealings with the divine, it seems to me. In that as they may allude to same sex relations they very well could be doing none other than giving rules or ideas based on man's presumption rather than divine decree. In that I don't find scripture a good rule book in defining today's moral political climate. I'm certainly not convinced that they do well as a tool to condemn those who deal with non majority issues. Those issues the rest of us have very little grounding in understanding--which must also include past and ancient scripture writers. On this if a person out there feels directed by God in their same sex relations, I say more power to them. Who am I to interfere? They know their dealings with God just as any scripture author.
Robert F. Smith Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 8 hours ago, Meerkat said: Where in the scriptures, ancient or modern, can I find a pattern of God endorsing or approving same sex sexual relationships? Can that position be supported in scripture? If so, how? If not, why not? See Jacob Milgrom, “Does the Bible Prohibit Homosexuality,” Bible Review, 9/6 (Dec 1993):11ff., online at http://members.bib-arch.org/publication.asp?PubID=BSBR&Volume=9&Issue=6&ArticleID=3 , which brought reader replies in BR 10/2 at http://members.bib-arch.org/search.asp?PubID=BSBR&Volume=10&Issue=02&ArticleID=01 . His arguments are based on Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13, and on Jewish tradition. However, Milgrom applies that rule only to Jews living in the Holy Land -- let other nations do what they will. 1
Gray Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 3 hours ago, Bobbieaware said: Please set forth some and elucidate some of those "larger principles" that would make gay marriage holy? "By their fruits you shalle know them" Jesus is purported to have taught on several occasions a kind of practical approach to good and evil. Good principles bear good fruit in the lives of those who practice them
thesometimesaint Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 56 minutes ago, USU78 said: Given the numbers on risk factors associated with homosexual parentage, I fund these quaint tales paint a very incomplete picture, don't you? Oh the Conservative canard that Gay parents recruit their children into homosexuality?
Gray Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 1 hour ago, Traela said: It's not the same thing at all. Heterosexual marriage creates a new unit of the human family. Gay "marriage" does not. It is, at best, a dim, poor-quality copy. What a sad thing to think about your brothers and sisters. What must you think of childless straight couples? 1
USU78 Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 2 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: Oh the Conservative canard that Gay parents recruit their children into homosexuality? I was thinking more of legal troubles, addictive behaviors, and dropping out, but whatever floats your boat 1
Tacenda Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 1 hour ago, USU78 said: Given the numbers on risk factors associated with homosexual parentage, I fund these quaint tales paint a very incomplete picture, don't you? CFR https://thinkprogress.org/worlds-largest-study-of-same-sex-parenting-finds-that-children-are-thriving-c5ac60819966 "An interim report found there was no statistical difference between children of same-sex couples and the rest of the population on indicators including self-esteem, emotional behaviour and the amount of time spent with parents. However, children of same-sex couples scored higher than the national average for overall health and family cohesion, measuring how well a family gets along."
Bobbieaware Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said: Yes, but St Paul says that they who have not the Law (Gospel) are a law unto themselves -- and will be judged thereby. This presumably includes those who adopt a gay lifestyle, but who have not received the Gospel. Rejection of that Gospel puts one in a different category. Most people who have lived on Earth have not heard the Gospel, and will presumably hear it on the other side. Robert: I believe Paul's words in Romans 2 are referring more to the light of Christ (the light that lighteth every men that cometh into the world) that inspires, illuminates and gives divine direction even to those who do not yet have the gospel of Christ. He appears to be saying that even though it can correctly be said that such people are "a law unto themselves," nevertheless, thanks to the holy indwelling influence of the light of Christ, their systems of law are not wholly removed from the mind and will of God. The United States of America during the years of its founding is a prime case in point. For even though the founders did not have the Restored Gospel, they were able to produce two inspired documents upon which even God himself was fully willing to place his divine stamp of approval. And it's for this same reason that the Family Proclamation warns even those who are not members of the Church that they will still be judged and even destroyed, if necessary, if they allow the Biblical concept of marriage and family to be overthrown and cast aside. It all boils down to the fact that if those who do not have the gospel ignore the promptings of the light of Christ that dwells within them from infancy, they will face very real ocondemnation for having done so. Here are Paul's words... 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do BY NATURE the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts (I.e. the the inspiration that comes by indwelling light of Christ), their conscience also bearing witness (the human conscience enlightened by the light of Christ), and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) (Romans 2) Edited June 18, 2017 by Bobbieaware 1
california boy Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 Let's first start with the law of Chastity. The one thing that is perfectly clear from God is that there should be no sex outside of marriage. We find scriptures condemning sexual relationships outside of marriage directed at both heterosexual relationships and homosexual relationships. All of the scriptures found in the Bible that address homosexual relationships always condemn those relationships that are outside of marriage. The Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price and D&C are silent on anything about homosexual relationships. But those scriptures do address sex outside of marriage as being against the laws of God. We can only assume that the law of chastity concerning sex outside of marriage is a requirement for all based on the scriptures that are in the Bible. Now let's look at whether God approves of homosexual relationships. Robert has already pointed out that God specifically says that it is not good for man to be alone. No where in the scriptures does God encourage or suggest that man should not marry. In fact, in 1 Timothy 4 he expressly warns against those that would forbid marriage in the last days. When the church forbids marriage, they are actually fulfilling a prophesy of the latter day that the Bible condemns. Quote 1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. So we know from this scripture that in the latter days some shall depart from the faith and actually forbid marriage. The scriptures are very clear that marriage is important for mankind. Whether you are gay or straight, having human companionship is fundamental to life itself. Robert has also done a good job quoting scriptures on the importance of marriage. Of course these scriptures talk about heterosexual marriages. But certainly a gay man can not marry someone of the same sex. So who are they commanded to marry? Certainly God does not want gay men to marry women. The church already tried that experiment and clearly that was not going to work. One thing is clear. God wants us to have companionship. To get married. To have full lives. And to keep the law of Chastity which the Bible defines as no sex outside of marriage. Being married teachers us more about the attributes of God than any other activity we do on this earth. None of this is hard to understand for those that listen to the Spirit. I don't think there is a single person that would disagree that there is no greater happiness than to find that person that you want to share your life with and commit to be with them forever. Anyone that contemplates their life without their spouse and children for even a moment recognizes that to have that take away is perhaps the worse thing that could ever happen to them. As the Bible says, no one should command people to not marry. It is against the laws of God. I personally think that church leaders will be held accountable for teaching this doctrine just like those leaders that taught that blacks could not receive temple ordinances. Church leaders may have good intentions, but it was unequivocally wrong. Forbidding to marry is also unequivocally wrong. Perhaps that is why church leaders have yet to claim any revelation from God on forbidding gay couples to marry. 1
Popular Post Garden Girl Posted June 18, 2017 Popular Post Posted June 18, 2017 9 hours ago, Meerkat said: Where in the scriptures, ancient or modern, can I find a pattern of God endorsing or approving same sex sexual relationships? Can that position be supported in scripture? If so, how? If not, why not? Leviticus 18:22... "Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind: it is abomination." Leviticus 20:13... "If a man also lie with mankind as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death: their blood shall be upon them." GG 5
thesometimesaint Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 I seriously doubt that many latter-day Saints would want to live under Levitical law. 2
Jude2 Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 Gen 9, the Lord speaking to Noah 7 And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein. 12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations: 13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth. It is interesting that a group of people who can not multiply as God intended usurped the token of the covenant between God and mankind. The day the white house was bathed in the colors of the rainbow we broke our covenant with God; “And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: ….” Dan 7:25 Seems like we are there. 3
california boy Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 1 hour ago, USU78 said: Given the numbers on risk factors associated with homosexual parentage, I fund these quaint tales paint a very incomplete picture, don't you? Because straight marriage has such a sterling track record? lol. Good one. From Wikipedia: Divorce rates of gay marriages. Quote Divorce rates[edit] Belgium[edit] Between 2004 and 2009, the average annual divorce rate for all homosexual marriages was almost 2% (the total rate of divorce over those 5 years was 11%) Also between 2004 and 2009, lesbian divorce rates were nearly double of those of gay men.[13] Denmark[edit] As of 1997, the same-sex partnership divorce rate was significantly lower than that of heterosexual couples in Denmark. The vast majority of gay marriages in Denmark are male-male. Fourteen (14) percent of these end in divorce, compared to 23 percent of female marriages. The higher rate for lesbians (almost double), is consistent with data showing that women initiate most of the heterosexual divorces in Denmark.[14] Netherlands[edit] In the Netherlands, slightly more marriages between women are recorded than between men: between 2006-2011 on average 690 and 610 per year respectively. The lesbian divorce rate is much higher than the divorce rate between men: in the same period on average 100 women and 45 men divorced per year (i.e., Lesbian divorce rate = 14%, Gay Male divorce rate = 7%).[15] South Africa[edit] No statistics are available for divorce of same-sex couples in South Africa. United Kingdom[edit] The divorce rate of same-sex couples within 29 months of the introduction of legally binding civil partnerships was slightly less than one percent in the United Kingdom.[17] Many sources cite that lesbian divorce rates are twice the rate of gay male divorce.[18][19][20] United States[edit] As of 2011, for states with available data, one study initially reported that the dissolution rates for same-sex couples were slightly lower on average than divorce rates of different-sex couples. The percentage of those same-sex couples who end their legal relationship ranges from 0% to 1.8%, or 1.1% on average across all listed jurisdictions per year, while 2% of married opposite-sex couples divorce annually.[21] According, however, to a Washington Post article retracting an earlier headline about the report, the study incorrectly calculated the percentage due to an error in capturing when the same-sex marriages began. As a result, the corrected findings show a 2% divorce rate — the same as married opposite sex couples. The article states that more data is needed over a longer period of time in order to provide accurate statistics on the topic.[22] Some studies have shown that lesbian committed relationships do not last as long as gay male committed relationships.[23]
california boy Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 (edited) Nevermind. Edited June 18, 2017 by california boy
Garden Girl Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said: I seriously doubt that many latter-day Saints would want to live under Levitical law. Hello TSS... And not just because of SSM issues... GG Edit to Add... It's not just Levitical law... JLHPROF just added Romans 1:26-27 and 1st Cor 6:9-10 Edited June 18, 2017 by Garden Girl
JLHPROF Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 30 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: I seriously doubt that many latter-day Saints would want to live under Levitical law. Irrelevant. The law might be fulfilled with higher principles, but God still expressed direct condemnation of same sex relations. 3
JLHPROF Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 (edited) 43 minutes ago, Garden Girl said: Leviticus 18:22... "Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind: it is abomination." Leviticus 20:13... "If a man also lie with mankind as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death: their blood shall be upon them." GG And Romans 1:26-27 And I Corinthians 6:9-10 And the bottom line isn't whether or not it is banned, but WHY it would be banned. As Bobbieaware already described, marriage and sexuality is to multiply and replenish the earth. It is to create life. Homosexuality on the other hand serves no higher purpose and would, if widespread enough, bring about an end to God's work. Edited June 18, 2017 by JLHPROF 1
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