Recent Mormon leaks on Fast Offering Audit

[Duncan]

Just now, cinepro said:

If I were a Bishop, in deciding whether or not to help someone with Fast Offerings Funds I would ask myself "If the ward members were given an anonymized list of how their Fast Offering money was used, would this being on the list make people not want to pay Fast Offerings?"

If the answer were obviously "yes", then it would warrant extreme caution.

Mumsie used to be the Relief Society Pres. when I was a missionary but there was this family that was constantly needing help for food, rent, etc. The man was an electrician and he made decent dosh but for whatever reason they were always coming to the Church for help and me Mum and dad had to go to the local Grocery store to get their food. Anyways, it got found out that all the man's wages were going to help people back their country of origin and so they had nothing left for them, hence the help. Well, my Mom said people were furious when that came out at the ward council but how they found out I have no clue.

[USU78]

27 minutes ago, bluebell said:

But that is talking about surplus properties.  This is what it says in verse 4 about how people (who have already tithed surplus property) should pay tithing-

And after that, those who have thus been ^atithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.

No where in that verse does the Lord teach that those paying tithing should be one-tenth of their surplus.

Thanks for this.  The revelation was given to an agrarian group who owned/leased the land they farmed for both subsistence and for trade.  There was very little cash money on the US frontier.

Those who owned rather than leased were asked to convey 1/10 of their land to the Bishop for the benefit of the poor.  Thereupon, as products and produce of the land came into being (grain, fruit, veggies, livestock), 1/10 of the increase of that grain, fruit, veggies and livestock, went into the Bishop's storehouse for the poor.

More recent direction makes more sense in an economy when people have jobs rather than farms.

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Several quotes from Bill Reel's article in Wheat and Tares: https://wheatandtares.org/2015/12/27/tithing-have-you-considered-paying-on-surplus/ Where does it say the member must pay tithe before their bills?

I pray that every man, woman, and child who has means shall pay one tenth of their income as tithing.

And, now, instead of doing as mortal landlords do — require you to contract with them to pay in advance, whatever your fortunes or your prospects may be — you shall pay me not in advance, but when you have received; and you shall pay me in accordance with what you receive. If it so be that in one year your income is abundant, then you can afford to pay me a little more; and if it be so that the next year is one of distress and your income is not what it was, then you shall pay me less; and should it be that you are reduced to the utmost penury so that/you have nothing coming in, you will pay me nothing.”

“In more recent times the Church has not called upon the members to give all theirsurplus property to the Church, but it has been the requirement according to the covenant, that they pay the tenth.” (Emphasis mine. Joseph Fielding Smith, Church History and Modern Revelation, 4 vols. [Salt Lake City: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1946-1949], 3: 120.).

“We have to live quite short but the brethren are very kind to us. They are willing to divide with us the last they have. They are quite ignorant; many of them cannot read a word and it needs great care to teach them the gospel so that they can understand. The people here are bound down under priestcraft in a manner I never saw before. They have to pay tithes to the priests of every tenth they raise, so that they cannot lay up one cent. They are in the same situation the children of Israel were in Egypt. They have their taskmasters over them to bind them down. It will be as great a miracle to deliver this people as it was the children of Israel.  There are a great many believing in Preston; we are baptizing almost every day.”

Mosiah 4:24 And again, I say unto the poor, ye who have not and yet have sufficient, that ye remain from day to day; I mean all you who deny the beggar, because ye have not; I would that ye say in your hearts that: I give not because I have not, but if I had I would give. 25 And now, if ye say this in your hearts ye remain guiltless, otherwise ye are condemned; and your condemnation is just for ye covet that which ye have not received.

 For your guidance in this matter, please be advised that we have uniformly replied that the simplest statement we know of is that statement of the Lord himself that the members of the Church should pay one-tenth of all their interest annually, which is understood to mean income.  No one is justified in making any other statement than this. We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly.

 

Tithing: Have You Considered Paying on Surplus?

Date: December 27, 2015Author: Guest Poster78 Comments

 

Wheat & Tares welcomes guest poster Bill Reel: Host of“Mormon Discussion Podcast”.  His Podcast serves to help those reconstructing their faith within Mormonism to do so “Leading with Faith” in the gospel rather than leaving the Church.

D&C 119 renews tithing in this dispensation as a commandment and hence every week Latter-day Saints grab envelopes next to their Bishop’s office and/or sign into LDS.org to pay their tithing on 10% of their income.  Yet have you ever stopped to ask what is income?  Some people pay on gross, others on net, and a few pay on surplus.  Wait, you didn’t know surplus was an option? Well, it is.

First, here are my definitions:

Gross Income:  income you receive before any taxes or other deductions are removed

Net Income:  income you receive in hand after taxes, medicaid, social security and other government deductions have taken place

Surplus Income:  income you have left over after all deductions by outside entities as well as all basic living expenses are paid for (housing, clothing, groceries, medical costs, utilities, etc…)

While I stand with the Brethren that none of us are to impose any definition on another and that each member has a right to seek their own answer of how to pay from the Lord, I feel obligated to ensure that every Latter-day Saint becomes aware of the scriptural and historical validity of all three options.  And since surplus gets the most neglect, I figured it best to begin here.  Below are the historical and scriptural reasons that support surplus as a valid option as you take this question to the Lord. Knowing all three options empowers you to seek the right spiritual answer for yourself through the guidance of the Holy Ghost.

Let’s start at the beginning of tithing in the restored church, with D&C 119 and how this revelation describes tithing:

3 And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people.   4 And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.  5 Verily I say unto you, it shall come to pass that all those who gather unto the land of Zion shall be tithed of their surplus properties, and shall observe this law, or they shall not be found worthy to abide among you.

Notice the use of the word surplus and the word interest in the above revelation.  The saints were required when entering the church to dedicate 10% of their properties to the church and thereafter 10% of their increase.  The word increase can be tricky to nail down.  An 1828 Webster’s dictionary defines interest in at least one case as “any surplus advantage” and in the same dictionary “advantage” is defined at least in one instance as “interest, increase, or overplus.”

Or the Kremlin.

Next, let’s examine a quote from Orson Hyde who is expounding on the D&C 119 revelation.

The celestial law requires one-tenth part of all a man’s substance which he possesses at the time he comes into the church and one-tenth part of his annual increase ever after.  IF IT REQUIRES ALL MAN CAN EARN TO SUPPORT HIMSELF AND HIS FAMILY, HE IS NOT TITHED AT ALL. The celestial law does not take the mother’s and children’s bread, neither ought else which they really need for their comfort. The poor that have not of this world’s good to spare, but serve and honor God according to the best of their abilities in every other way, shall have a celestial crown in the Eternal Kingdom of our Father.” (The Millenial Star, 1847. Orson Hyde, editor)

This quote comes after the law of of tithing was revealed and also after the law of consecration was done away.

Brother Hyde seems clear that he personally sees the definition as “surplus” and that if one spends all his gross income to sustain his family’s needs then he is not tithed at all.  In essence the poor are not tithed at all.

“Encyclopedia of Mormonism” when referring to tithing states:

Tithing is the basic contribution by which Latter-day Saints fund the activities of the Church. By revelation to the Prophet Joseph Smith, the Lord stated that members should pay “one-tenth of all their interest [increase] annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever” (D&C 119:4).

This is important because some apologists argue that 119 could perhaps be referring to the surplus of the Law of Consecration and not the surplus of the Law of Tithing.  Bro. Hyde and The Encyclopedia of Mormonism both agree that Section 119 is the Law of Tithing which is “a standing law unto them forever.”  

Another interesting piece of evidence is found in the JST of Genesis 14where Brother Joseph is making inspired corrections to the bible.

Wherefore Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given him more than that which he had need.” JST Genesis 14:39. 

This correction shows that Abraham paid tithes on the portion that was above and beyond “that which he had need,” clearly a surplus interpretation.  Add to that Hebrews 7:4

4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils

This New Testament scripture seems to reinforce that Abraham paid tithing on his surplus or “spoils.”

Next, let’s consider the words of President Lorenzo Snow at the 1899 General Conference (page 30 on the pdf, page 28 of the actual document). These words are often partially quoted.  Here is the quote in full:

I pray that every man, woman, and child who has means shall pay one tenth of their income as tithing.

The word “who has means” is strangely absent when the talk is quoted in manuals, conferences, and other places. Omitting this phrase changes the meaning of the quotation significantly.

Further instruction given in the pamphlet “The Lord’s Tenth, Pamphlet, 1968”:

THE TITHE AS A RENTAL
As the matter presents itself to my mind, it is as though there had been a contract made between myself and the Lord, and that in effect He had said to me: “You have need of many things in this world — food, clothing, and shelter for your family and yourself, the common comforts of life, and the things that shall be conducive to refinement, to development, to righteous enjoyment. You desire material possessions to use for the assistance of others, and thereby gain greater blessings for yourself and yours. Now, you shall have the means of acquiring these things; but remember they are mine, and I require of you the payment of a rental upon that which I give into your hands. However, your life will not be one of uniform increase in substance and possessions; you will have your losses, as well as your gains; you will have your periods of trouble as well as your times of peace. Some years, will be years of plenty unto you, and others will be years of scarcity, And, now, instead of doing as mortal landlords do — require you to contract with them to pay in advance, whatever your fortunes or your prospects may be — you shall pay me not in advance, but when you have received; and you shall pay me in accordance with what you receive. If it so be that in one year your income is abundant, then you can afford to pay me a little more; and if it be so that the next year is one of distress and your income is not what it was, then you shall pay me less; and should it be that you are reduced to the utmost penury so that/you have nothing coming in, you will pay me nothing.”

Talmage can be seen as defending all three interpretations and while some may see gross as the conclusion here I post it anyway as there are phrases used that seem to indicate other options such as net or surplus as well as Talmage first speaks of one’s needs and then speaks of not paying in advance but only once one knows whether one has an abundance or a scarcity. This advice is a contrast to some more recent instruction from various church leaders.

Joseph Fielding Smith in explaining why we no longer pay 10% of our  property to the church upon joining said this:

“In more recent times the Church has not called upon the members to give all theirsurplus property to the Church, but it has been the requirement according to the covenant, that they pay the tenth.” (Emphasis mine. Joseph Fielding Smith, Church History and Modern Revelation, 4 vols. [Salt Lake City: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1946-1949], 3: 120.).

Note that he does not state that one should pay the tenth of gross.  In the context of the remark, it is clear he meant the tenth of surplus as it had always been paid; he was referring to no longer giving the tenth of surplus property first. As the Church became more financially successful, leaders simply removed the requirement to donate the initial tenth of one’s surplus properties.  Members were now only required to pay the tenth of surplus annually.

In consecration, the Lord defines surplus as the part of one’s income that is “more than is necessary for their support” (D&C 42:33). If tithing is a lesser law than consecration, why does it currently demand more of your money (the gross or net model) than did consecration (a tenth of surplus). If consecration is the goal (surplus) and tithing is a lesser law, why does tithing require a greater sacrifice than consecration did?

In a Letter from Heber C. Kimball to his wife Vilate that was subsequently reprinted in Elders’ Journal (Oct 1837, pp.4-7) he critiques the tithing practices of competing denominations in the Lancashire area.

Preston, Lancashire, England, September 2, 1837
My Dear Companion [Vilate Kimball],

“We have to live quite short but the brethren are very kind to us. They are willing to divide with us the last they have. They are quite ignorant; many of them cannot read a word and it needs great care to teach them the gospel so that they can understand. The people here are bound down under priestcraft in a manner I never saw before. They have to pay tithes to the priests of every tenth they raise, so that they cannot lay up one cent. They are in the same situation the children of Israel were in Egypt. They have their taskmasters over them to bind them down. It will be as great a miracle to deliver this people as it was the children of Israel.  There are a great many believing in Preston; we are baptizing almost every day.”

Heber’s criticism is that any church that requires 10% of gross as tithing is practicing priestcraft.  This letter was written months before section 119 was revealed.

Mosiah also argues on behalf of the poor, distinguishing between those who have sufficient for their needs and those who do not.  He releases the poor from making donations.

Mosiah 4:24 And again, I say unto the poor, ye who have not and yet have sufficient, that ye remain from day to day; I mean all you who deny the beggar, because ye have not; I would that ye say in your hearts that: I give not because I have not, but if I had I would give. 25 And now, if ye say this in your hearts ye remain guiltless, otherwise ye are condemned; and your condemnation is just for ye covet that which ye have not received.

When we make a tithing declaration at the end of the year, we declare ourselves full tithe payers, partial tithe payers, or exempt.  Who are the exempt?  Mosiah would say “the poor,” those who have no surplus.

The saints are to pay tithing annually as instructed in D&C 119.  The instruction to pay annually only makes sense in light of  surplus.  When you pay on surplus, it is only at the end of the year that you know how much surplus you have left over.  Present instruction to pay tithing before you pay other obligations contradicts the revelation of D&C 119.

those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually

Tellingly, the Gospel Principles book remains vague on the topic of tithing:

In modern times the Joseph Smith prayed, “O Lord, show unto thy servants how much thou requirest of the properties of thy people for a tithing” (D&C 119, section introduction). The Lord answered: “This shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people. And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever” (D&C 119:3–4). The First Presidency has explained that “one-tenth of all their interest annually” refers to our income (see First Presidency letter, Mar. 19, 1970).

The “Preach my Gospel” manual seems to be intentionally vague as well:

Tithing means one-tenth, and the Lord has commanded us to give a tenth of our increase, which is understood to mean income, that we may be blessed.

Lastly let’s look at the First Presidency’s official doctrine on the matter from a 1970 letter sent to the wards and stakes.

 For your guidance in this matter, please be advised that we have uniformly replied that the simplest statement we know of is that statement of the Lord himself that the members of the Church should pay one-tenth of all their interest annually, which is understood to mean income.  No one is justified in making any other statement than this. We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly.

It should be noted that the Lord never mentions the word “income” in the revelation (section 119), but only surplus and interest. “Income” is man’s addition even if they are men of God.  They admit as much when they state the word interest is “understood” to mean income.

The “Encyclopedia of Mormonism” While arguing that interest means “income” also states clearly that each person has a right to determine what an honest and fair tithe is and pay it accordingly.

 

Bill Reel?

Really?  Sorry but I did not read your post- I find discussing Bill Reel a waste of time.  I have had enough discussions with him directly to know he NEVER gets it right, even if he quotes scripture all day long.

Why would I follow him?  He has no understanding of the spirit whatsoever.

The church does not "require" anything of anybody- you go in for a temple recommend and the Bishop ASKS "Are you a full tithe payer"?

You say yes or no.

It's between you and the Lord.  Period.  If you don't have the guts to stand up against prophets and General Authorities if necessary when the spirit tells you something otherwise you are a robot following blindly.  You have no mind or sense of your own if you are like that, and many here ARE like that.

It's between you and the Lord, the church has nothing to do with it.  I am on this planet to please the Lord, not the church.

On the other hand, I have learned many many many things from the church as confirmed by the spirit, which I know are true, not because the church has told me but because the Lord has confirmed what the church teaches.

So go ahead and follow Bill Reel and let him do your investment planning and I will follow what I see as the Lord's plan and let's compare notes later.

Pay it on your full increase.  That's my FINANCIAL advice- and my spiritual advice.

It works.

[mfbukowski]

Why do I need Bill Reel to tell me how to read plain English?

He is quibbling over the definition of "increase".  yes, dang it, I wasted time reading it- at least Tacendas post

Guess what?

I can interpret that word just fine without him. 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2012/12/are-we-paying-too-much-tithing.html

The word Surplus is also defined in Webster's 1828 as being synonymous with the word "overplus," a word seldom used anymore but which happened to be the term to describe tithing used by John Corrill, one of the scribes who had been enlisted by Joseph Smith to write an early history of the Church. (Corrill's fascinating book, A Brief History of the Church of Christ of Latter Day Saints, published in 1839, has been hard to come by until quite recently. You can now find it reprinted in its entirety in The Joseph Smith Papers, Volume 2-The Histories).  Here is how Corrill explained tithing among the early Saints:

"If a man gives for the benefit of the Church, it is considered a voluntary offering. Yet the law requires or enjoins a consecration of the overplus, after reserving for himself and family to carry on his business.(Emphasis mine.)"

This is, iirc, rock waterman's website.  He has been excommunicated, again iirc.  Which is not to say ignore him, just don't view him as someone who looks current teachings as having any authoritative value.

Edited June 9, 2017 by Calm

[Alan]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

So because Abraham was given more than he needed to survive by the Lord, and paid tithing on all of it, rich people should pay tithing on their income and poor on their surplus?  

I don't think i'm getting from that verse what you are getting, which, to me, means that it's neither clear nor unequivocal.  

Oh it is absolutely clear.

In the KJV it says that Abram gave one tenth of all he had. But in the JST it says he gave one tenth of all he had, above that of which he had need.

The meaning here is clear as day. Abraham was tithing his surplus.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Alan said:

Oh it is absolutely clear.

In the KJV it says that Abram gave one tenth of all he had. But in the JST it says he gave one tenth of all he had, above that of which he had need.

The meaning here is clear as day. Abraham was tithing his surplus.

That's not how i read that scripture at all though.  I don't read it as Abraham tithing only on his surplus.  I read it as abraham, who had been blessed by the Lord with more than he needed, paid tithing on all that he had.

If anyone is wondering, this is the verse in question-Wherefore, Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given him more than that which he had need.

So again, it's not absolutely clear at all.  It's very much subject to interpretation.  The fact that you and I, both of us sincerely wanting to know God's will on the subject, are reading the scripture and understanding it in completely contradictory ways proves that the meaning is not 'clear as day.'

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Alan said:

Oh it is absolutely clear.

Yes, it seems perfectly clear that the Lord blessed Abraham with more than he had need, and that Abraham was tithed of all he had.

Even if I was to accept your intetpretation (which feels forced to me honestly), it would have to be based on "possessions", similar to how the early saints practiced.  They gave 10% of their surplus possessions, which was beyond what they had need.  Then they were tithed on their annual increase after that.  The law of tithing simply is not practiced that way any more in our modern economy.

Edited June 10, 2017 by pogi

[ksfisher]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

 

So again, it's not absolutely clear at all.  It's very much subject to interpretation.  The fact that you and I, both of us sincerely wanting to know God's will on the subject, are reading the scripture and understanding it in completely contradictory ways proves that the meaning is not 'clear as day.'

If only there was a church on earth that was led by modern day prophets and also had agents who were authorized to act for the Lord on a local level...perhaps they could help clear up the confusion.