Published response to "reconfiguration of LDS politics"

[ttribe]

On 5/13/2017 at 1:08 PM, Mars said:

i voted clinton.

i work in DC and know more than just a little bit about email servers and classification markings.  i think a lot of the criticism hillary gets wouldn't come her way were she not a woman or a clinton.  it's entirely reasonable and possible to disagree with her proposed policies and track record and vote for her, and the recent political scandals that have tarnished her legacies appear to be exaggerated failings -- she didn't kill anyone in benghazi through negligence or incompetence, the DC pizza scandal thing boggles the mind, and the private email server wasn't a prison-worthy offense although it was incredibly stupid and high minded of her.  

whatever garden variety corruption you get from a DC politician, you'll get from hillary.

donald trump is awful.  he cares nothing -- nothing -- for the weak and vulnerable.  he bullies, he pushes around, he accepts zero responsibility, and his treasure/heart lie in slippery treasures that are stolen by his enemies. i understand and embrace some conservative values, and i can only just barely see holding your nose and voting for him, but his administration and leadership have been a glorified turd show.

I'm a lifelong Republican; historically very conservative.  I agree with your assessment of the Trump administration and I also cast my vote for Hillary Clinton in the election.  The current occupant of the White House is a laughingstock.

Edited May 14, 2017 by ttribe

[SteveO]

24 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

This is the first election I can remember that I was ever frightened by. I liked George H.W. Bush, did not like Clinton but whatever, was dubious about George W. Bush, and cautiously optimistic about Obama.

Trump is the kind of person that could bring down or irreparably damage a democracy. Pretending that democracies cannot fall is falling off the other side of the horse from the hysterical ramblings of some who think the fate of the world hinges on every election.

But BOTH sides of the political divide are doing things that erode democracy.  Which is why I think the problem isn't Trump, but the system that gave us the choice between Clinton and Trump.

[thesometimesaint]

11 hours ago, ttribe said:

I'm a lifelong Republican; historically very conservative.  I agree with your assessment of the Trump administration and I also cast my vote for Hillary Clinton in the election.  The current occupant of the White House is laughingstock.

I'm a moderately conservative liberal. I'm not a member of any political party , but lean Green. I too voted for Hillary. Not because I liked her, but because Trump is the sorriest excuse for a human being I've seen in a long time. That he is President of the country I love disgusts me.

[The Nehor]

18 hours ago, SteveO said:

But BOTH sides of the political divide are doing things that erode democracy.  Which is why I think the problem isn't Trump, but the system that gave us the choice between Clinton and Trump.

I do not think there is an equivalency between the two.

[Gray]

7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I do not think there is an equivalency between the two.

There is not. We haven't had a greater threat to the republic than the Trump administration for more than two centuries. This is not a normal president.

[The Nehor]

42 minutes ago, Gray said:

There is not. We haven't had a greater threat to the republic than the Trump administration for more than two centuries. This is not a normal president.

And now he is suggesting he is secretly taping people in violation of the law to try to threaten people from exposing him. More Watergate-era stuff and yet he is still too stupid to realize he just admitted to violating the law.

[halconero]

23 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I do not think there is an equivalency between the two.

In a certain sense you're both right. The increasingly polarized power (not necessarily polarized people, as Independents are increasingly becoming the larger political (non) party, in the US), concentrated increasingly in the executive, and the inability to address the problems of income inequality and automation (the actual problem repackaged as outsourcing) gave rise to Trump. That doesn't mean that you're wrong however as there's sort of a feedback loop here where the actions of the executive as performed by Trump are exacerbating the problems towards a breaking point.

Not that it's a perfectly analogous, but a good example is the Fall of the Roman Republic. Augustus was a product of the trends in Roman politics and society at the time, but that doesn't mean he didn't contribute to the downfall of the same Republic.

Edited May 15, 2017 by halconero

[SteveO]

9 hours ago, halconero said:

In a certain sense you're both right. The increasingly polarized power (not necessarily polarized people, as Independents are increasingly becoming the larger political (non) party, in the US), concentrated increasingly in the executive, and the inability to address the problems of income inequality and automation (the actual problem repackaged as outsourcing) gave rise to Trump. That doesn't mean that you're wrong however as there's sort of a feedback loop here where the actions of the executive as performed by Trump are exacerbating the problems towards a breaking point.

Not that it's a perfectly analogous, but a good example is the Fall of the Roman Republic. Augustus was a product of the trends in Roman politics and society at the time, but that doesn't mean he didn't contribute to the downfall of the same Republic.

I think people who voted for Trump will find he won't fix their problems.  Just like the people who voted Obama eight years ago.  I just shake my head when Trump promises to save manual labor jobs, especially coal mining. The only thing that's going to save blue collared work is retraining and/or unique skill sets.  It takes initiative and a little bit of work that these guys feel they aren't able to do or are too old to do.  And so I think they liked the messaging of Trump as you've noted.

I went back to school to become an electronics technician, and probably half of my class was 40+ years old.  So some guys are beginning to understand they can't stay where they are.  You have to be able to market yourself. Hopefully it's a trend that trickles down to the younger people.  It's a pretty brutal economic world out there.

 

[The Nehor]

And now the President is sharing classified intel with the Russians (after yelling about how Hillary's email was a security risk). Remember the good old days when people thought Quayle was an idiot because he could not spell the name of a popular tuber vegetable once (instead of our President misspelling rambling tweets on a near-daily basis)? Remember when Carter was being investigated by deranged Republicans trying to prove his brother was embezzling money through the family peanut farm he used to own (instead of setting up court at a pay to play resort and not divesting himself of any of his financial holdings?

I miss those days.

[Gray]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

And now the President is sharing classified intel with the Russians (after yelling about how Hillary's email was a security risk). Remember the good old days when people thought Quayle was an idiot because he could not spell the name of a popular tuber vegetable once (instead of our President misspelling rambling tweets on a near-daily basis)? Remember when Carter was being investigated by deranged Republicans trying to prove his brother was embezzling money through the family peanut farm he used to own (instead of setting up court at a pay to play resort and not divesting himself of any of his financial holdings?

I miss those days.

Yup. Those were the days.

There is some chatter from people who seem to have sources in the intelligence community that Trump and quite a few of his associates, including Republicans in the house and senate, are going down. Who knows if that's true, but the talk is that the only one in the line of succession who is not in the legal crosshairs is Orrin Hatch. That would be an interesting way of getting our first Mormon president.

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Gray said:

Yup. Those were the days.

There is some chatter from people who seem to have sources in the intelligence community that Trump and quite a few of his associates, including Republicans in the house and senate, are going down. Who knows if that's true, but the talk is that the only one in the line of succession who is not in the legal crosshairs is Orrin Hatch. That would be an interesting way of getting our first Mormon president.

I hope it is not Hatch. He played along with the stupid Obama surveilled Trump and did the silly outrage thing.

I am not sure I buy that source. It hinges on the Comey firing being unconstitutional. It was not. It could be grounds for impeachment but is not directly unconstitutional.

[Gray]

23 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I hope it is not Hatch. He played along with the stupid Obama surveilled Trump and did the silly outrage thing.

I am not sure I buy that source. It hinges on the Comey firing being unconstitutional. It was not. It could be grounds for impeachment but is not directly unconstitutional.

It's not based on the Comey firing. Apparently there is a RICO case with widespread money laundering of Russian money. Trump has supposedly been doing this for years and is in deep debt with the Russians, and several prominent Republican politicians as well. Also direct evidence of Trump colluding with Russians on DNC hack in exchange for removing sanctions. 

Take it with a grain of salt of course, but this source knew about the FBI raid on the GOP consulting firm way ahead of time. 

Edited May 16, 2017 by Gray

[Calm]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I hope it is not Hatch. He played along with the stupid Obama surveilled Trump and did the silly outrage thing.

I am not sure I buy that source. It hinges on the Comey firing being unconstitutional. It was not. It could be grounds for impeachment but is not directly unconstitutional.

By the time they could get their act together and impeach that many, chances are it would be the next election.

[Gray]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

By the time they could get their act together and impeach that many, chances are it would be the next election.

I don't know if the VP needs to be impeached or not, but the other successors I believe can be simply arrested and charged, as long as they haven't been sworn in as president. 

[thesometimesaint]

20 hours ago, Gray said:

I don't know if the VP needs to be impeached or not, but the other successors I believe can be simply arrested and charged, as long as they haven't been sworn in as president. 

Pence is in the Flynn problem way over his head.

[Gray]

Breaking: 

Justice Dept. to appoint special prosecutor for Russia probe

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/05/17/justice-dept-to-appoint-special-prosecutor-for-russia-probe-238524

House majority leader to colleagues in 2016: ‘I think Putin pays’ Trump

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/house-majority-leader-to-colleagues-in-2016-i-think-putin-pays-trump/2017/05/17/515f6f8a-3aff-11e7-8854-21f359183e8c_story.html?hpid=hp_no-name_no-name%3Apage%2Fbreaking-news-bar&tid=a_breakingnews&utm_term=.dde753227b4c

 

Edited May 17, 2017 by Gray

[SteveO]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

Breaking: 

Justice Dept. to appoint special prosecutor for Russia probe

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/05/17/justice-dept-to-appoint-special-prosecutor-for-russia-probe-238524

House majority leader to colleagues in 2016: ‘I think Putin pays’ Trump

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/house-majority-leader-to-colleagues-in-2016-i-think-putin-pays-trump/2017/05/17/515f6f8a-3aff-11e7-8854-21f359183e8c_story.html?hpid=hp_no-name_no-name%3Apage%2Fbreaking-news-bar&tid=a_breakingnews&utm_term=.dde753227b4c

 

Watching the news this evening...so far the general consensus is that IF Trump is telling the truth about Russia, this may be the best possible outcome for him ironically--we'll see 

[The Nehor]

15 hours ago, SteveO said:

Watching the news this evening...so far the general consensus is that IF Trump is telling the truth about Russia, this may be the best possible outcome for him ironically--we'll see 

I am torn. On one hand I almost hope there is a Russian connection even though it will strain our government and cause possibly irreparable damage. It could even lead to the collapse of the GOP which is something I am also torn about. On one hand supporting a deranged narcissist should be punished. On the other hand when parties collapse it often takes time for a new party to form and challenge it and an unopposed party is a dangerous thing. For some Trump will be a martyr and it will further divide the nation until the Baby Boomers (Trump's strongest demographic) start dying en masse. American democracy will have lost its innocence. While we have had corrupt presidents, bad presidents, and weak presidents this is probably our first truly autocratic president.

If there is no connection then this nightmare goes on. Trump, possibly senile, continues creating crises on a near daily basis. Incidents of possible corruption that would have been mulled over for weeks or months in happier times occur on roughly a weekly basis. Our allies and our enemies can easily manipulate a venal and stupid man like Trump through flattery and/or humiliation and we continue to lose respect worldwide. The City on a Hill America was supposed to be will be a joke. Republicans, though privately embarrassed, will soldier on trying to push through legislation while the sun shines while a few dissenters will start to weaken unity as the scandals and incidents continue to accumulate. Democrats win the mid-term elections and Trump is forced into a lame-duck status and is possibly impeached then. If not, a massive campaign of deception in the executive branch forms as the bureaucracy tries to keep Trump away from anything important while the cockroaches of government keep it humming along.

Which is worse?

I am grateful for one thing. This is fighting to save democracy in easy mode. Imagine if someone like Trump and equally without scruples but with a brilliant mind and Machiavellian instincts had seized this populist movement. They could have weakened the media more subtly, kept their corruption more carefully hidden, actually covered up their missteps, lied more judiciously to maintain some credibility, and done it with charisma and rousing rhetoric instead of what we got: the disjointed insane ramblings of a sad little man who just wants to be admired. I still find it beyond belief that it has gone this far. The first time I listened to Trump speak his manner and rhetoric screamed "CON ARTIST". When it all falls apart I do get at least one fun consolation. I get to say this:

Edited May 18, 2017 by The Nehor

[thesometimesaint]

I'm a Boomer and am torn. There is nothing I'd like better than to see Trump spend the rest of his life in jail. But cringe that our country has fallen this far so quickly. We have a wannabe two bit dictator with the nuclear codes. I don't know if we'll survive him as a country.

[BlueDreams]

Well I'm a millennial. And an optimist. I hope this sheds a light about the problems in our government that have been accruing for a while that's leading to polarization, partisanship, and greater ineffectiveness. Trump is the epitome of all that's going wrong, indicating that a group will enable a dangerous buffoon if it means they may pass their tax cuts. Ironically, I agree with his populist voters who were hoping to see him "shake things up"....I just think his "shaking" is waking several up to the need for civic engagement and that our democracy isn't bullet proof. We have to care, or our rights and privileges as Americans are up for grabs. Of course, I don't know about the staying power of this...but I'm still hopeful that in the long run the tides are shifting and hopefully to a positive lean. But I do admit that I'm hesitant to say that. In many ways seeing some of the ugliness and willful ignorance of American corners is depressing. And keeping track of his daily scandals and incompetence is exhausting.

 

With luv,

BD

Edited May 18, 2017 by BlueDreams

[Gray]

Mormon congressman and former Nu Skin executive Jason Chaffetz is stepping down early. 

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/05/18/chaffetz-to-announce-early-departure-from-congress-238550

The scuttlebutt on him is that he illegally removed marks indicating that Comey's memo about Clinton's emails was classified, and leaked the memo in order to help Trump. Reportedly the Russians have compromising blackmail material on him, and his resignation is part of a deal with the FBI to avoid prosecution. This has not yet been confirmed. 

[BlueDreams]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

Mormon congressman and former Nu Skin executive Jason Chaffetz is stepping down early. 

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/05/18/chaffetz-to-announce-early-departure-from-congress-238550

The scuttlebutt on him is that he illegally removed marks indicating that Comey's memo about Clinton's emails was classified, and leaked the memo in order to help Trump. Reportedly the Russians have compromising blackmail material on him, and his resignation is part of a deal with the FBI to avoid prosecution. This has not yet been confirmed. 

Where are you getting this? I've looked and haven't found anything of this even in speculative articles in new sources such as this:

http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/utahns-puzzled-rep-chaffetz-decision-quit-congress-n754511

[Gray]

25 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

Where are you getting this? I've looked and haven't found anything of this even in speculative articles in new sources such as this:

http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/utahns-puzzled-rep-chaffetz-decision-quit-congress-n754511

A couple of people on Twitter who seem to have sources in the intelligence community. I would dismiss it as rumor-mongering, but they keep predicting these events before they happen. For instance, they knew weeks ago about the story that just surfaced about Paul Ryan. 

@TrueFactsStated

@LouiseMensch

Edited May 18, 2017 by Gray

[Rajah Manchou]

44 minutes ago, Gray said:

A couple of people on Twitter who seem to have sources in the intelligence community. I would dismiss it as rumor-mongering, but they keep predicting these events before they happen. For instance, they knew weeks ago about the story that just surfaced about Paul Ryan. @TrueFactsStated @LouiseMensch

That's some interesting Tweeting, but it gets pretty far out there. According to her Orin Hatch is already President : )

“Trump’s Presidency Ended May 9th” – Hatch Getting Security Briefings

[Gray]

35 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

That's some interesting Tweeting, but it gets pretty far out there. According to her Orin Hatch is already President : )

“Trump’s Presidency Ended May 9th” – Hatch Getting Security Briefings

Not literally already president.

I'm not one to jump on any information that I want to hear and just assume it is true. But they've been consistently ahead of the mainstream press on new developments in Trump/Russia, which tells me they really do have inside sources.

Mensch is obnoxious, though. 

Edited May 18, 2017 by Gray