Utah and the American Dream

[bluebell]

35 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

Utah's schools suck. It's kind of mind boggling that Utah spends so little on students. We are able to do a lot with little for a variety of reasons, but our school scores really aren't great and have been getting worse. I wish the legislature would recognize that better schools ought be a big concern. We should have scores in the top 10 of states.

I agree.  Coming from Wyoming (my home state), this was a concern of mine.   Utah spends a little less than $7,000 a year per student and Wyoming spends about $14,600 per year per student.  

I realize that part of it is that Utah has so many kids in their pubic school system (644,476 last year).  That's more than the entire population of Wyoming (which had 94,000 students in its public school system the same year.)  But that's the thing.  Utah may have way more students, but it also has way more taxpayers to help fund their schools.  The entire population of Wyoming doesn't even break 600,000 people but Utah's population is 2.9 million.  

That means that if public schools were paid for strictly out of each state's population (which they aren't), each Utahn would be asked to pay about$1750 a year and each Wyomingite would be asked to pay $2400.  

So, even taking into consideration the larger student population, Utah could be doing better.

Edited March 28, 2017 by bluebell

[bluebell]

12 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

None of the three are up to 96% white. 

 

I'm just going off of the stats available.

Here

From the first paragraph of the article-

"What do Iowa, Montana, and West Virginia have in common? White people, and lots of them. According to Census data, these states are among the top 10 "whitest," ABC News reports. New England comes in first with three states in which at least 96% of the population is white."

This article is referring to one reported on by ABC news, which can be found Here. 

From the first paragraph of that article-

"According to the Census Bureau, Maine, Vermont and New Hampshire all have mostly white populations — in fact, at least 96 percent of the population of each state is white."

Quote

Anyway, racism could still be the leading cause even if Utah is more diverse than other states.  There are after all more than one factor going into it. 

Since there is as much of a chance (as you've said) that one of the other factors is the leading cause as there is that racial diversity is the cause, it seems weird to keep bringing up racial diversity as if it's unique from the other factors listed.  Clearly, it is no more likely to be the leading cause than any other factor.  

[Calm]

29 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

Utah's schools suck. It's kind of mind boggling that Utah spends so little on students. We are able to do a lot with little for a variety of reasons, but our school scores really aren't great and have been getting worse. I wish the legislature would recognize that better schools ought be a big concern. We should have scores in the top 10 of states.

I would say the involvement of parents in their kids' school life is what makes the difference.  Having lived long enough in 7 different places to observe how much parents get involved, Utah in my experience is very high.  Part of it is stay at home mothers, but as a room mother for almost all of the years my children were in elementary and a volunteer after that, outside of Utah even among stay at home parents, few volunteered.

I don't know if studies are still consistently showing parental involvement one of the top indicators of academic success, but they were all that way in the past, iirc.

[rongo]

25 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I'd say acknowledging the racism of the past is a start.  But that start doesn't seem to have ever been made, largely.  The essay form 2013 is close to it, but it's just an obscure piece with some mention. 

What do you propose would be a better acknowledgment of past racism by the Church (beyond what the essay said)? An apostle wearing a hair shirt in General Conference?

Racism is frustrating to many of us.  It is not easily done away with because we want it gone.  the effects linger in so many ways.

I'm more frustrated by unfounded perceptions that are impossible to get rid of. Even if an apostle wore the hair shirt in GC and the Church did a full-court PR press to try to show that we aren't racist, people who think the Church is racist will continue to think so. There is literally nothing that can actually be done about it (no amount of anything will appease or move the needle with those who want to remain convinced that the Church and LDS culture was and remains systemically racist). It frustrates me because it isn't true.

[Calm]

35 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I agree.  Coming from Wyoming (my home state), this was a concern of mine.   Utah spends a little less than $7,000 a year per student and Wyoming spends about $14,600 per year per student.  

I realize that part of it is that Utah has so many kids in their pubic school system (644,476 last year).  That's more than the entire population of Wyoming (which had 94,000 students in its public school system the same year.)  But that's the thing.  Utah may have way more students, but it also has way more taxpayers to help fund their schools.  The entire population of Wyoming doesn't even break 600,000 people but Utah's population is 2.9 million.  

That means that if public schools were paid for strictly out of each state's population (which they aren't), each Utahn would be asked to pay about$1750 a year and each Wyomingite would be asked to pay $2400.  

So, even taking into consideration the larger student population, Utah could be doing better.

 My husband (who has a big investment in the topic seeing his paycheck comes from the state education choices) has often in the past pointed to the huge amount of federal land in Utah, thus lowering its ability to get taxes going into the state budget from those lands.  It would be interesting to contrast it with Wyoming on that level.

Teachers salaries might play into it as well.  BYU turns out masses of teachers and it used to be hard to find a job (don't know current status), that would tend to drive salaries down, lower costs.  Utah is also not that big on unions, so I suspect that the Teachers' Union or whatever it is called doesn't have as much influence.

I also get the impression that the rule makers think getting better tech in the classes somehow solves all the problems.  My grandson's 1st grade teacher was furious they had provided all the classrooms with this massive screen with elaborate functions which she did not have time to learn how to use because of the size of her class.  Plus they were eliminating one of the enrichment programs in favor of spending more time prepping for the tests that got them their money.  There wasn't any room in the class because a quarter of it was devoted to tech stuff.  It was crowding out the reading and socializing areas.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Calm

[smac97]

18 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

I think Utah, particularly Utah county, is struggling with homelessness right now.

Hmm.  I've understood that Utah has been a standout and substantially reducing homelessness.  See, e.g., here:

Quote

A decade ago, Utah set itself an ambitious goal: end chronic homelessness.

As of 2015, the state can just about declare victory: The population of chronically homeless people has dropped by 91 percent.

The state's success story has generated headlines around the country, and even The Daily Show With Jon Stewart looked to Utah to understand how the state achieved its goal.

In fact, Utah still has a substantial homeless problem. The overall homeless population is around 14,000.

The chronically homeless, on the other hand, are a subset of the homeless population that is often the most vulnerable. These are people who have been living on the streets for more than a year, or four times in the past three years, and who have a "disabling condition" that might include serious mental illness, an addiction or a physical disability or illness.

According to the Department of Housing and Urban Development, that represents about 20 percent of the national homeless population.

By implementing a model known as Housing First, Utah has reduced that number from nearly 2,000 people in 2005, to fewer than 200 now.

That was in 2015.  However, there has been some dispute about the 91% figure.  See, e.g., here:

Quote

Utah provided permanent housing and supportive services to chronically homeless individuals—those with lengthy periods of homelessness and mental health or substance abuse problems. Although overall homelessness has actually increased slightly over the past decade in Utah, such a large reduction in chronic homelessness is still an impressive achievement. But is it real?

Unfortunately, no. I spent some time studying Utah’s data and found that the miraculous 91 percent reduction in chronic homelessness appears to be driven by changes in how people were counted, rather than by how many there were.

The first problem with Utah’s numbers is shown in the graph below. Utah conducts a count of its homeless population on a single night each January. But instead of reporting this “point-in-time” count, Utah annualizes it first. That means that the actual count is adjusted upward to reflect the fact that some people who were homeless at some point throughout the year were not homeless on the night of the count.

...

This doesn’t mean that Utah has failed its homeless residents. It just means that the state’s data have been used to spin the tempting but unrealistic narrative that ending homelessness is as simple as giving homes to homeless people. Cities like Seattle, Los Angeles and New York are looking for answers amidst unprecedented levels of homelessness. They need real solutions.

To be fair, Utah has done a lot of good things. The state has rightly focused most intensely on the homeless who sleep on the streets and who have serious problems with mental illness and addiction. Hundreds of people have been moved from the street and shelters into housing. Whether the overall numbers have plummeted the way Utah reports should not distract from these positive steps.

But for cities thinking of borrowing the Utah model, more needs to be done. Additional focus should be placed on transitioning people out of expensive supportive housing and into housing of their own or with family members when their well-being improves. This will free up resources for additional needy people in the future. More accountability should be placed on service providers for helping people overcome addiction, find work and rebuild connections with family and community. Engagement with services shouldn’t be required for homeless individuals to receive housing in the first place, but when appropriate, actual requirements that encourage personal improvement can be phased in over time.

It’s time to come clean. The unrealistic narrative that Utah has ended homelessness by giving out homes is not helping.

Here is the official "Comprehensive Report on Homelessness" published by the State of Utah.  Here are some interesting year-over-year stats from it:

1. There was a .7 increase in the number of "Homeless Individuals" from 2015 to 2016 (1,798 increased to 1,810).  This seems statistically insignificant, IMO.
2. There was a 19.5% decrease in the number of "Homeless Families" from 2015 to 2016 (1,216 decreased to 979).  This seems statistically significant.
3. There was a 5.6% reduction in "Chronically Homeless Individuals" (178 to 168).  The sampling seems too small, and the change too small, for this to be a significant finding.
4. There was a 64.7% reduction in "Chronically Homeless Persons in Families" (17 to 6).  Again, sampling issues make this finding less useful.
5. There was a 16.7% increase in "Chronically Homeless Veterans" (18 to 21).  Again, sampling issues.

Line items 1 and 2 seems to be significant, at least for year-over-year analytics.  

This article also seems noteworthy:

Quote

Homelessness is up in Utah regardless of a report from the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) announcing Friday that homelessness in the nation and Beehive State was down.

HUD's 2016 Annual Homeless Assessment Report to Congress found that the number of people experiencing homelessness in Utah on a single night in 2016 fell 7.2 percent from 2015.

That conclusion is at odds with anecdotal evidence seen on Salt Lake City streets, as well as data collected by the Utah Department of Workforce Services that offer more complete information than the feds.

That HUD report refers to the annual "Point in Time" count that seeks to quantify everyone living in a shelter, a car or outside during one night in January.

...

{Y}earlong data on homelessness collected by the Utah Division of Housing and Community Development reveal that homelessness jumped from 12,241 to 13,114 during that same period — a growth rate of more than 7 percent. The state's report released in May also said the population of homeless families was up 17 percent.

And this one:

Quote

Overall homelessness in Utah climbed 7 percent between 2014 and 2015, according to data released Wednesday by state officials.

Families made up most of the increase, with their subpopulation growing by 17 percent, according to the statewide Homeless Management Information System or HMIS.

Tamera Kohler, director of the Utah Community Services Offices, said the increase among homeless families was most notable in Ogden and St. George, which likely coincides with the opening of new shelters in each community.

Could you provide any data regarding homelessness in Utah County?  I live in Provo, and have neither noticed nor heard about a substantial increase in the homelessness problem here.

18 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

There's starting to be a large homeless camp on the mountainside that police are struggling to deal with. Part of the issue, according to workers at the homeless center, is that Salt Lake City is pushing homeless to Provo often giving them bus passes.

Yes, I've heard about that.  However, IIRC there are no "family" shelters in Utah County, so I wonder if there is also a migration from Utah County to Salt Lake, at least for families.

And for the record, SLCPD has apparently denied doing this ("A spokesman for the Salt Lake City Police Department told the Associated Press that some people may have decided to shift south, but everyone picked up in the sweeps was dealt with locally, not sent out of town.").  However, see here:

Quote

What’s difficult for Crane is the mentality these new homeless individuals bring with them from Salt Lake City.

“There’s some of the clientele that have showed up on our doorstep that almost have a prison mentality,” Crane said. “It’s like, ‘You help me, or else.’”

Many report they were given a bus pass or FrontRunner train ticket to ride to Utah County, shifting the burden on the shoulders of Food and Care Coalition, the police and other community services.

Crane partly attributed the increased demand for Utah County resources on Operation Diversion. 

“We have our suspicions and we’re pretty comfortable in saying that they’re giving them bus tokens down here,” he said.

And here:

Quote

Provo officials say efforts to tackle drugs and overcrowding at Salt Lake City's main homeless shelter appear to be bringing more people in need to their city south of Utah's capital.

Many of the newcomers arriving over the past several months are looking for housing, which is a challenge because Utah County doesn't have a traditional short-term shelter, Brent Crane with the Food and Care Coalition in Provo told the Daily Herald.

Some of the newcomers report they got bus fare to go south after being picked up by police in Salt Lake during drug sweeps around the shelter, Crane said.

So . . . yeah.  Shifting the homeless 40 miles to the south is not the best solution, I think.

18 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

In turn Salt Lake City is decreasing the number of beds and resources they have while trying to split the homeless up into various neighborhoods.

Yep.  500 fewer beds ("Leaders would replace an at-capacity 1,100-bed shelter with three smaller shelters that would house between 600 and 700 beds, total.").  That is a significant reduction.

18 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

However those neighborhoods are pushing back and don't want shelters in their area. There have been several cases of extreme violence in both areas including a recent decapitation in one Provo homeless camp.

That murder apparently also had gang-related overtones.  But homelessness was undoubtedly also central to it.

18 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

The number of rapes on the hillside, a popular jogging area, has increased significantly with police now warning people to not go there.

I don't know what the solutions are, but the homeless problem isn't solved in Utah. 

I'm not sure anyone has suggested that the problem has been "solved."  Homelessness will always be with us.  Utah is working at it, though.  I'm glad of that.

Thanks,

-Smac

[bluebell]

12 minutes ago, Calm said:

 My husband (who has a big investment in the topic seeing his paycheck comes from the state education choices) has often in the past pointed to the huge amount of federal land in Utah, thus lowering its ability to get taxes going into the state budget from those lands.  It would be interesting to contrast it with Wyoming on that level.

Teachers salaries might play into it as well.  BYU turns out masses of teachers and it used to be hard to find a job (don't know current status), that would tend to drive salaries down, lower costs.  Utah is also not that big on unions, so I suspect that the Teachers' Union or whatever it is called doesn't have as much influence.

It looks like 48% of land is federally owned in Wyoming and 66% in Utah.  

Wyoming pays it's teachers about $60,000 and Utah pays them $46,000, on average.  

As far as unions go, all i know is that Wyoming is a right to work state-meaning that you don't have to be in a union if you don't want to be, they can't make it mandatory as part of having the job.  I have no idea how that affects the numbers of teachers who are part of the union in wyoming though and I don't know anything about Utah and unions.

But one of the reasons that Wyoming spends so much money per student though is because their energy revenues are tied to education.  The state brings in a lot of money through oil, gas, and coal and a large part of it goes towards schools.

Edited March 28, 2017 by bluebell

[stemelbow]

33 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I'm just going off of the stats available.

Here

From the first paragraph of the article-

"What do Iowa, Montana, and West Virginia have in common? White people, and lots of them. According to Census data, these states are among the top 10 "whitest," ABC News reports. New England comes in first with three states in which at least 96% of the population is white."

This article is referring to one reported on by ABC news, which can be found Here. 

From the first paragraph of that article-

"According to the Census Bureau, Maine, Vermont and New Hampshire all have mostly white populations — in fact, at least 96 percent of the population of each state is white."

 

I'm a geek on this stuff.  According to the 2010 census Maine and Vermont are at 95% and NH is 93%.  But really this is no big deal.  I'm sure tons of sources will estimate it differently.

33 minutes ago, bluebell said:

 

 

Since there is as much of a chance (as you've said) that one of the other factors is the leading cause as there is that racial diversity is the cause, it seems weird to keep bringing up racial diversity as if it's unique from the other factors listed.  Clearly, it is no more likely to be the leading cause than any other factor.  

I brought it up once and have continually been asked about it. 

[SteveO]

1 hour ago, clarkgoble said:

I think Utah, particularly Utah county, is struggling with homelessness right now. There's starting to be a large homeless camp on the mountainside that police are struggling to deal with. Part of the issue, according to workers at the homeless center, is that Salt Lake City is pushing homeless to Provo often giving them bus passes. In turn Salt Lake City is decreasing the number of beds and resources they have while trying to split the homeless up into various neighborhoods. However those neighborhoods are pushing back and don't want shelters in their area. There have been several cases of extreme violence in both areas including a recent decapitation in one Provo homeless camp. The number of rapes on the hillside, a popular jogging area, has increased significantly with police now warning people to not go there.

I don't know what the solutions are, but the homeless problem isn't solved in Utah. 

Unwise Christian charity?

Thats what my sister calls it.  Utah is wonderful at helping people who actually need it, but sometimes we help everyone...and not everyone has the best intentions when taking advantage of the welfare system.

I read an article a few years back that said Salt Lake was the destination for many homeless outside the state because the welfare net was so generous.  I believe that's why they've just been slammed with the homeless population lately.

I guess that's the risk that you take, but it is infuriating to see able bodied persons panhandeling after driving a couple blocks that had "help wanted" signs at nearly every other place of business.  The economy in the valley is doing too well to have that many able bodied people asking for money.

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I'm a geek on this stuff.  According to the 2010 census Maine and Vermont are at 95% and NH is 93%.  But really this is no big deal.  I'm sure tons of sources will estimate it differently.

I brought it up once and have continually been asked about it. 

The articles were written in 2016, so maybe that has something to do with the discrepancy.  

But yes, you made a claim and have been asked to support it if possible.  That seems pretty reasonable.

[stemelbow]

21 minutes ago, rongo said:

What do you propose would be a better acknowledgment of past racism by the Church (beyond what the essay said)? An apostle wearing a hair shirt in General Conference?

 

 

I'm more frustrated by unfounded perceptions that are impossible to get rid of. Even if an apostle wore the hair shirt in GC and the Church did a full-court PR press to try to show that we aren't racist, people who think the Church is racist will continue to think so. There is literally nothing that can actually be done about it (no amount of anything will appease or move the needle with those who want to remain convinced that the Church and LDS culture was and remains systemically racist). It frustrates me because it isn't true.

Well...I'm not sure what to say.  The Church had as a doctrine for most of it's existence a policy that is racist.  That surely doesnt' shed easily. It was institutional.  The effects are still felt by many because some old-timers are still influenced by past doctrine and policy, and it was inherently part of the Church.  The Church after all proclaims to be more right than others, at the very least, and proclaimed racist doctrine as coming from God.  That's troubling to many.  It is what it is.

 

[clarkgoble]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

What's frustrating for me is that it seems to be impossible to free ourselves from this charge of racism from certain people. What, exactly, can Church members/the Church/Utah members do that will ever get this monkey off of our back, in your view?

Note her point wasn't about racism today. Indeed she emphasizes how amazed there was that race didn't matter to people. Rather her point was that past racism (which is just a fact of history) led to a fairly homogenous society. That's important since many economists and sociologists argue that things work as well as they do in nordic countries because of that homogeneity.

 

[clarkgoble]

6 minutes ago, SteveO said:

I guess that's the risk that you take, but it is infuriating to see able bodied persons panhandeling after driving a couple blocks that had "help wanted" signs at nearly every other place of business.  The economy in the valley is doing too well to have that many able bodied people asking for money.

I tend to agree. I used to volunteer feeding the homeless in Provo. There were some people clearly down on their luck. I remember a family with three kids living out of their car due to umemployment. But then I also saw people walk in offering jobs that paid better than I was making at the time and being turned down. It was hard to volunteer after that.

[stemelbow]

7 minutes ago, bluebell said:

The articles were written in 2016, so maybe that has something to do with the discrepancy.  

But yes, you made a claim and have been asked to support it if possible.  That seems pretty reasonable.

I'm not sure what you mean by making a claim.  I essentially said, one of the issues raised in the link you offered is possibly the leading cause, just as another cause could be the leading cause.  My claim is supported by the article you linked. 

[pogi]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

Correlation is not causation. 

At least I can show correlation.  What do you have?

The point is that you cannot show correlation between race and upward mobility when you control for other factors.  There is strong correlative evidence between marriage and upward mobility despite race.  This eliminates race as a factor and makes marriage status a much better indicator. 

Quote

 

 Interestingly, we find no correlation between racial shares and upward mobility once we control for the fraction of single parents in an area.”

 

 

Edited March 28, 2017 by pogi

[rongo]

5 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Well...I'm not sure what to say. 

None of the critics of the Church's past are sure what to say. They complain easily about what the Church has said (e.g., the essay), but aren't really a well of ideas as far as what else the Church should say and do. Other than what it does is bad . . .

The Church had as a doctrine for most of it's existence a policy that is racist.  That surely doesn't shed easily.

Setting aside that I reject this, and accepting it for the sake of argument: therefore, what? What should the Church do about it? Can the Church do anything that will move the needle one iota? Can the Church do anything at all that will "shed" the racist label?

I'm not convinced that it can (in the eyes of critics), and I'm not convinced that they want the Church to be able to. No matter what it does.

It was institutional.  The effects are still felt by many because some old-timers are still influenced by past doctrine and policy, and it was inherently part of the Church.

What effects, specifically are still felt in the Church because of old-timers who are still influenced by past doctrine and policy? I think it's easy to say this, but hard to actually demonstrate this.

The Church after all proclaims to be more right than others, at the very least, and proclaimed racist doctrine as coming from God.  That's troubling to many.  It is what it is.

I think this is at the heart for people critical of the Church over this. They are furious at the Church and/or God for the policy's existence, and no amount of "corrective action" or change will heal this hurt. And to some extent it is the hypochondriac's hurt: the critics want to remain angry at the Church/God, and want to be able to complain about this indefinitely.

[bluebell]

8 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I'm not sure what you mean by making a claim.  I essentially said, one of the issues raised in the link you offered is possibly the leading cause, just as another cause could be the leading cause.  My claim is supported by the article you linked. 

That a lack of racial diversity helps Utah is supported by the article.  That it might be the leading cause, is not supported by the article.

[clarkgoble]

34 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Could you provide any data regarding homelessness in Utah County?  I live in Provo, and have neither noticed nor heard about a substantial increase in the homelessness problem here.

Yes, I've heard about that.  However, IIRC there are no "family" shelters in Utah County, so I wonder if there is also a migration from Utah County to Salt Lake, at least for families.

My understanding is that traditionally people were shipped from Utah County to SLC simply because that was where the state resources were for things like mental health and the like. There's some in Utah County but the focus here was getting people into apartments - but that's harder due to the rapid growth and the somewhat understandable unenthusiasm by most landlords. 

I don't have hard data although when I did a story on this earlier this morning at T&S I linked to the January city council notes. The problem on the mountainside has been a huge topic of concern among Provost residents on Facebook the past few weeks as the camp has gotten bigger. The police apparently went to remove them but was rebuffed by the property owner (they aren't on public property) who is using it to leverage the city into rezoning his property as I understand. He and the city have butted heads many times. He is building the big condo development on the hillside which was originally zones for single family dwellings. For more info I'd probably do a search for provost and homeless camp on Facebook. (I'm not a FB person so I can't give links)

Edited March 28, 2017 by clarkgoble

[clarkgoble]

7 minutes ago, rongo said:

Setting aside that I reject this, and accepting it for the sake of argument: therefore, what? What should the Church do about it? Can the Church do anything that will move the needle one iota? Can the Church do anything at all that will "shed" the racist label?

Just to be pedantic, I should note that the question isn't whether it was inspired or not. Just whether it was racist or not. Even if you believe it was of God that doesn't make it less racist under the definition. 

As for what the Church can do, I think some of the outreach to black churches has helped. We've not seen as much of that of late, but I know Pres. Hinkley did a lot of that. I'd like to see more of that. I'd like to see the Church do a bit more in predominately black areas to get more black members. I was on a mission in Lousiana in the late 80's and we had a few wards go from almost no blacks to at least half blacks. But we did a lot of things to help them feel comfortable. Some really great members who went out of their way helped a great deal too - especially with older southern members who often were pretty racist. (The members from Utah and the Mormon corridor who were there for jobs were much more helpful) That said from what I understand the church after that initial change hasn't grown as much in the black community. I'd love to know why.

Having some more black GAs would help a great deal as well although that's clearly up to the Lord. But I do know there are some fantastic black leaders and hopefully we'll see more among the 70's and then hopefully one day in the 12.

[clarkgoble]

13 minutes ago, bluebell said:

That a lack of racial diversity helps Utah is supported by the article.  That it might be the leading cause, is not supported by the article.

Well to a degree. I think she exaggerated it somewhat when one sees the number of hispanics at 13% which is higher than many states. I bet the statistics in SLC are fairly different from the overall state statistics too.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, clarkgoble said:

Utah's schools suck. It's kind of mind boggling that Utah spends so little on students. We are able to do a lot with little for a variety of reasons, but our school scores really aren't great and have been getting worse. I wish the legislature would recognize that better schools ought be a big concern. We should have scores in the top 10 of states.

It is surprising considering the heavy emphasis the church places on education and the influence the church has on local government, and yet Utah falls dead last in education spending.  

Education is obviously important, and I agree that we should be doing better, but it doesn't seem to appear that more education funding =  improved economic mobility.   As far as economy mobility goes, it seems that our money would be best invested in improving and promoting strong marriages and compassionate welfare services within the community.  

[clarkgoble]

4 minutes ago, pogi said:

Education is obviously important, and I agree that we should be doing better, but it doesn't seem to appear that more education funding =  improved economic mobility.   As far as economy mobility goes, it seems that our money would be best invested in improving and promoting strong marriages and compassionate welfare services within the community.  

Yes, my concern with schools is more with my children rather than economic mobility.  I think the cause is a certain libertarian tendency in Utah that just hates government spending - particularly taxes - even when it's in an area that traditionally has been a government focus.

I think though if we're looking at exporting solutions that there's a correlation not causation effect. That is the people who aren't married often don't have the skills to have good marriages. Plus there's a lot in their environment working against good marriages. So if people just got married more in say Mississippi that wouldn't necessarily have a causal consequence of better upward mobility. The reality is that the people in Utah are socially different and that matters. 

My own political view is that we should be trying to increase mobility in terms of getting the poor to move to where the jobs are and move to where there's better social environments. Dense neighborhoods of poverty are not good. There's a fair bit of economic literature on this.

Likely what's happening in Utah is the peer effect where even people in bad family situations have more peers who are in good ones. That then helps them first off set expectations, see examples but also have more incentive to rise to those situations.

Edited March 28, 2017 by clarkgoble

[pogi]

3 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

 I bet the statistics in SLC are fairly different from the overall state statistics too.

I live in Midvale, UT.  Whites are actually the minority at our elementary school - 62% Hispanic and 29.5% White. 

[juliann]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

Sure Utah is different in this regard.  Afterall Utah houses the center of Mormonism which religion had the racist teaching of denying a race priesthood and temple ordinances.  That gives Utah it's distinction when it comes to race. 

OMG, I'm not defending Mormons, but you are coming up with too many absolutes. Mormons made themselves an easy target but when compared to to Evangelicals, for instance, we do not have the worst record by any means. 

[clarkgoble]

10 minutes ago, pogi said:

I live in Midvale, UT.  Whites are actually the minority at our elementary school - 62% Hispanic and 29.5% White. 

It's like that at my kids school in Provo too.