Utah and the American Dream

[bluebell]

Bloomberg did an article, written by a non-mormon who lives in D.C., on why Utah is unique in the nation for providing financial upward mobility.   According to stats, a child in Utah has a 10% chance of moving from poverty to middle class.  In North Carolina, the same child would only have a 4% chance of doing so.  What was really interesting to me was how the mormon church (and the values it espouses) has impacted this trend.

Here's the article.  It would be best to read it before commenting if possible.

Some points it makes.  It's important to know that the purpose of the article was to study how possible it would be to take Utah's model and make it work in other states.  So interpret these points using that objective:

• Utah's war on homelessness is so successful because the state government works well together (conservatives and liberals do not fight amongst themselves like they do in other states, and Utah's conservatism is highly charitable, erring on the side of mercy).  
• The Mormon welfare network is amazing.  It provides help but does not enable.  It mobilizes volunteers on an incredible scale.  
• The middleclass-ness in Utah is infectious.  People from poorer areas and neighborhoods frequently interact with those with more means, providing examples for poorer children to look up and and aim for.  Poorer children have access to social networks which include wealthier children and they benefit from them.   
• Utah's lack of racial diversity makes it more capable of providing help to the poor because it is easier for people to help those they see as being similar to them and family members.  There is little 'oppressor/victim' mentality, which can really bog down social programs.  (The author isn't arguing that it's good or that a lack of racial diversity should be a goal, only that this is one of the bi-products of it.)
• Because of the values of the mormon church, the state is more stable for everyone.  Alcohol causes less problems in Utah than it does in most other states and less alcohol consumption equals a more stable and productive environment overall.  The LDS church's teachings on marriage is also a huge reason that Utah does so well with poverty.   Children raised in homes with two married parents do better than children raised in single parent homes.  Also noteworthy is the fact that children who grow up in neighborhoods with married parent examples do better with getting out of poverty, even if they themselves live in a single parent home.  This is true for work as well, which shows that people who have access to neighborhoods where most people work have a higher chance of having a job themselves than those who live in neighborhoods where the majority don't work.  Both are examples of the previously mentioned benefit of having relationships with people who set a positive example of not just what life could be but what it should be, giving people faith that they can achieve the same things.

The author of the piece connects the Mormon church to every positive point (or, in terms of racial diversity, not necessarily a positive point but one that has some societal benefits).  For those who have read the entire article and can comment on it, do you think her conclusions are valid?

[stemelbow]

Well, good enough. Not sure I agree with all the conclusions as some seem to be a stretch. But Utah is a fine enough place and the people work hard to keep it that way, for the most part. 

I will add, I'm saddened by the race issue.  I think it may well be the leading cause of why Utah wins with upward mobility--which would suggest racism is a key factor in that measure.  It might have far less to do with all the work mentioned by Utah residence and more to do with racism, which just so happens to be a bigger factor in more racially diverse areas. 

[bluebell]

26 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Well, good enough. Not sure I agree with all the conclusions as some seem to be a stretch. But Utah is a fine enough place and the people work hard to keep it that way, for the most part. 

I will add, I'm saddened by the race issue.  I think it may well be the leading cause of why Utah wins with upward mobility--which would suggest racism is a key factor in that measure.  It might have far less to do with all the work mentioned by Utah residence and more to do with racism, which just so happens to be a bigger factor in more racially diverse areas. 

Do you have anything to back up the bolded statements?  I'm just wondering where you are getting that idea from.  It clearly plays a part (which isn't surprising since it's easiest to 'be one' with people that you feel are the same as you) but what stats/references make you say that is the leading cause?

[stemelbow]

5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Do you have anything to back up the bolded statements?  I'm just wondering where you are getting that idea from.  It clearly plays a part (which isn't surprising since it's easiest to 'be one' with people that you feel are the same as you) but what stats/references make you say that is the leading cause?

I didn't say it is the leading cause, Bluebell.  But the summary you linked mentioned it as a cause.  We don't know the leading cause based on this. 

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, stemelbow said:

I didn't say it is the leading cause, Bluebell.  But the summary you linked mentioned it as a cause.  We don't know the leading cause based on this. 

You said "it may well be the leading cause."  I'm wondering why you think that?  Why do you think it might be the leading cause?  

It's leap to go from 'one of the causes' to 'might be the leading cause.'  The article supports why it is one of the causes so i'm wondering if you can support why it might be the leading cause as you claimed.

[thesometimesaint]

Ethnocentrism does have its advantages.

[stemelbow]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

You said "it may well be the leading cause."  I'm wondering why you think that?  Why do you think it might be the leading cause?  

It's leap to go from 'one of the causes' to 'might be the leading cause.'  The article supports why it is one of the causes so i'm wondering if you can support why it might be the leading cause as you claimed.

I think it might be because it is listed as a cause and we don't know which is the leading cause.  The leading cause may well be something else too.  But I will add racism is ugly and I'd agree with the article a big part of why Utah is less racially diverse is the Church's past racism.  It's sad that she notes, "When the poor people are, by and large, the same race as the richer ones, people find it easier to talk about them the way they might talk about, well, family members — as folks who may have made some mistakes and started with some disadvantages, but also as folks who could be self-sufficient after a little help from an uncle or a sister. It’s a very different conversation from “victim”/“oppressor” and “us”/“them”: a conversation that recognizes that poor people often make choices that keep them in poverty, but also that the constraints of poverty, including the social environment of poor neighborhoods, make it very difficult to make another choice." 

I think it's at least partially true.  And it's sad Utah's past racism is a cause to it being in the lead here. 

[Buckeye]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Bloomberg did an article, written by a non-mormon who lives in D.C., on why Utah is unique in the nation for providing financial upward mobility.   According to stats, a child in Utah has a 10% chance of moving from poverty to middle class.  In North Carolina, the same child would only have a 4% chance of doing so.  What was really interesting to me was how the mormon church (and the values it espouses) has impacted this trend.

Here's the article.  It would be best to read it before commenting if possible.

Some points it makes.  It's important to know that the purpose of the article was to study how possible it would be to take Utah's model and make it work in other states.  So interpret these points using that objective:

• Utah's war on homelessness is so successful because the state government works well together (conservatives and liberals do not fight amongst themselves like they do in other states, and Utah's conservatism is highly charitable, erring on the side of mercy).  
• The Mormon welfare network is amazing.  It provides help but does not enable.  It mobilizes volunteers on an incredible scale.  
• The middleclass-ness in Utah is infectious.  People from poorer areas and neighborhoods frequently interact with those with more means, providing examples for poorer children to look up and and aim for.  Poorer children have access to social networks which include wealthier children and they benefit from them.   
• Utah's lack of racial diversity makes it more capable of providing help to the poor because it is easier for people to help those they see as being similar to them and family members.  There is little 'oppressor/victim' mentality, which can really bog down social programs.  (The author isn't arguing that it's good or that a lack of racial diversity should be a goal, only that this is one of the bi-products of it.)
• Because of the values of the mormon church, the state is more stable for everyone.  Alcohol causes less problems in Utah than it does in most other states and less alcohol consumption equals a more stable and productive environment overall.  The LDS church's teachings on marriage is also a huge reason that Utah does so well with poverty.   Children raised in homes with two married parents do better than children raised in single parent homes.  Also noteworthy is the fact that children who grow up in neighborhoods with married parent examples do better with getting out of poverty, even if they themselves live in a single parent home.  This is true for work as well, which shows that people who have access to neighborhoods where most people work have a higher chance of having a job themselves than those who live in neighborhoods where the majority don't work.  Both are examples of the previously mentioned benefit of having relationships with people who set a positive example of not just what life could be but what it should be, giving people faith that they can achieve the same things.

The author of the piece connects the Mormon church to every positive point (or, in terms of racial diversity, not necessarily a positive point but one that has some societal benefits).  For those who have read the entire article and can comment on it, do you think her conclusions are valid?

Thank you for the article. IMO, one of the best things the church does - especially when compared with other faith organizations - is to integrate the lives of members from wildly different social circles. Partly, this is possible because we are a young-ish and small-ish faith. But it's also because of sure force and will. When a church unit is struggling, other stronger units will be broken up and placed into it. The missionary programs ensure not only a strong outflow of labor and leadership to poorer areas, but a life-long understanding of such areas for RMs. While I didn't vote for Romney, I also stood up when people in my circle criticized him for his wealth; I would explain how his church background - missionary in France, bishop, stake president, etc. - ensured that he was very familiar with how it feels to not be able to pay the rent, etc. So I agree with this article that the church's influence is a big reason why upward mobility is larger in Utah. I'd only add that another big reason is that mormons are typically younger and have more children. Those demographics tend to result in a wider middle income distribution than one with an older population with fewer children.

[bluebell]

13 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Ethnocentrism does have its advantages.

I think the underlying principle is that unity has it's advantages, but that as flawed humans, we find it easiest to be one with people who are like us.  I think the important thing, moving forward, is not to confuse 'easiest' with 'best.' 

[bluebell]

15 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I think it might be because it is listed as a cause and we don't know which is the leading cause.  The leading cause may well be something else too.  But I will add racism is ugly and I'd agree with the article a big part of why Utah is less racially diverse is the Church's past racism.  It's sad that she notes, "When the poor people are, by and large, the same race as the richer ones, people find it easier to talk about them the way they might talk about, well, family members — as folks who may have made some mistakes and started with some disadvantages, but also as folks who could be self-sufficient after a little help from an uncle or a sister. It’s a very different conversation from “victim”/“oppressor” and “us”/“them”: a conversation that recognizes that poor people often make choices that keep them in poverty, but also that the constraints of poverty, including the social environment of poor neighborhoods, make it very difficult to make another choice." 

I think it's at least partially true.  And it's sad Utah's past racism is a cause to it being in the lead here. 

Race is a very difficult thing.  Our inheritance from slavery is far reaching, and incredibly difficult for our country to get past.   I don't think there's anything to support the idea that our lack of racial diversity may be the leading cause of Utah's success in helping people be financially more secure though.  For example, Maine, Vermont, and New Hampshire are the whitest states in the U.S. (96% white).

Utah doesn't even make it into the top 10 of America's whites states.   If, as you have posited, less racial diversity might be the leading cause of granting access to the American dream, each of those 10 other states should be doing better than Utah, but they aren't. 

[Robert F. Smith]

28 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Ethnocentrism does have its advantages.

Correct.  Yet Utah seems very accepting of great ethnic diversity, not only in the student population which comes here from every corner of the Earth, but also based on the exotic places to which missionaries are sent.  One of our senior couples just left for another two-year stint in the bush in Africa (they have already done four years there), and everyone I know thinks that is admirable.

[bluebell]

Here's another article discussing how much donations to the humanitarian fund have increased due to the 'I was a stranger' campaign focused on helping refugees. 

The committee considered human trafficking, addictions, poverty, literacy and other serious problems before prayerfully settling on refugee aid, Sister Reeves said. When the women leaders presented their thoughts to priesthood leaders in the fall of 2015, they learned the faith's First Presidency and Presiding Bishopric were preparing to send a letter to be read in each of the church's congregations.

It encouraged all members of the church to give to the humanitarian fund as they are able "in response to the growing refugee crisis."

"And contribute the members did," said Derek Westra, director of communications for Welfare Services. "It was an amazing response. In fact, the humanitarian aid fund doubled, and it has never done that before. Not only did it double, and you'd expect a temporary spike, it doubled and it stayed there and it has been there ever since.

"So... 2016 was the most impactful year in the history of LDS Charities in every category, including donations from members, expenditures and distribution of those donations, product quality, number of beneficiaries, number of volunteers, number of partners."

 

[pogi]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

Well, good enough. Not sure I agree with all the conclusions as some seem to be a stretch. But Utah is a fine enough place and the people work hard to keep it that way, for the most part. 

I will add, I'm saddened by the race issue.  I think it may well be the leading cause of why Utah wins with upward mobility--which would suggest racism is a key factor in that measure.  It might have far less to do with all the work mentioned by Utah residence and more to do with racism, which just so happens to be a bigger factor in more racially diverse areas. 

Actually, the article made it clear that race and diversity is not a factor at all once you control for family structure.  In other words, marriage matters.  Race? Not so much.  

Quote

 

“Parents’ marital status does not matter purely through its effects at the individual level,” they write. “Children of married parents also have higher rates of upward mobility in communities with fewer single parents. Interestingly, we find no correlation between racial shares and upward mobility once we control for the fraction of single parents in an area.”

In other words, while areas with high numbers of racial minorities did, in general, have lower levels of mobility (for whites as well as blacks), once they controlled for the family structure of the community, that effect disappeared. Marriage seems to have more of a correlation with mobility than race does. 

 

 

[Robert F. Smith]

33 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

.................................................................  

I think it's at least partially true.  And it's sad Utah's past racism is a cause to it being in the lead here. 

In that respect, Utah is no different than any other intermountain area of the USA, but certainly a much less violent past than most large American metropolitan areas, where minorities were savagely attacked and killed with great gusto -- whether Chinese, Mexicans, or African-Americans.  Some of that continues in many American cities, but not in Utah.  So how does that make it "being in the lead here"?  We have actually done a whole lot better than the rest of America in dealing with minority poverty, and have reached out to the needy throughout the world to a far greater extent than any other group.

I have seen both sides of this issue up close and personal.  I am a Californian who now lives in Utah, and my cousin Spencer Cox is the Lt Governor of Utah who just pushed a wonderful piece of anti-poverty legislation into law.  https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-03-28/how-utah-keeps-the-american-dream-alive .

[Mystery Meat]

Utah is a great place to live and it is undeniable that the Church's (or better said, the Restored Gospel) influence has a lot to do with that.

[rpn]

I think she misses the most accurate reason for upward mobility.    The emphasis on self-improvement, on education, on reading (often because there is no money for more expensive pursuits) is what creates the belief and expectation that children will join the middle class.   (If she'd mention that, she would likely have mentioned that all this leads to self-doubt and perfectionism, and sometimes social judgment, which are negative factors in outcomes.)

Edited March 28, 2017 by rpn

[rongo]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

But I will add racism is ugly and I'd agree with the article a big part of why Utah is less racially diverse is the Church's past racism . . . And it's sad Utah's past racism is a cause to it being in the lead here. 

What's frustrating for me is that it seems to be impossible to free ourselves from this charge of racism from certain people. What, exactly, can Church members/the Church/Utah members do that will ever get this monkey off of our back, in your view? I lived in Utah for about 6 years, and in my experience, the vast majority of Utah people in general, and Mormons in particular, are accepting and friendly towards other races. It seems to me to be more of a canard than anything. When I used to work at Motorola a long time ago, a black co-worker was asking questions about the Church, and he commented that there were so few black members of the Church. I smiled, and told him that we would *love* to have many more. Our struggles attracting black investigators and converts are at least as much due to unfounded cultural perceptions from the black community as they can rightly be laid at the feet of Mormons or the Church. This is frustrating to me.

[pogi]

3 minutes ago, rpn said:

I think she misses the most accurate reason for upward mobility.    The emphasis on self-improvement, on education, on reading (often because their is no money for more expensive pursuits) is what creates the belief and expectation that children will join the middle class.

Actually she did mention education.  She pointed out that Utah spends less than all other states on education yet we have the highest income mobility.  It certainly goes against intuition, but does seem to show that the churches influence is even more effective than even a secular education in terms of upward economic mobility.  

[Jeanne]

I can say without a doubt that the church's welfare system is super great.  I had a non mormon boss that I invited to a Stake open house that explained on the things mormon..he was so.o.o. impressed with the welfare system and it does work.  He was from Colorado. 

[clarkgoble]

I think Utah, particularly Utah county, is struggling with homelessness right now. There's starting to be a large homeless camp on the mountainside that police are struggling to deal with. Part of the issue, according to workers at the homeless center, is that Salt Lake City is pushing homeless to Provo often giving them bus passes. In turn Salt Lake City is decreasing the number of beds and resources they have while trying to split the homeless up into various neighborhoods. However those neighborhoods are pushing back and don't want shelters in their area. There have been several cases of extreme violence in both areas including a recent decapitation in one Provo homeless camp. The number of rapes on the hillside, a popular jogging area, has increased significantly with police now warning people to not go there.

I don't know what the solutions are, but the homeless problem isn't solved in Utah. 

[clarkgoble]

29 minutes ago, pogi said:

Actually she did mention education.  She pointed out that Utah spends less than all other states on education yet we have the highest income mobility.  It certainly goes against intuition, but does seem to show that the churches influence is even more effective than even a secular education in terms of upward economic mobility.  

Utah's schools suck. It's kind of mind boggling that Utah spends so little on students. We are able to do a lot with little for a variety of reasons, but our school scores really aren't great and have been getting worse. I wish the legislature would recognize that better schools ought be a big concern. We should have scores in the top 10 of states.

[stemelbow]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Race is a very difficult thing.  Our inheritance from slavery is far reaching, and incredibly difficult for our country to get past.   I don't think there's anything to support the idea that our lack of racial diversity may be the leading cause of Utah's success in helping people be financially more secure though.  For example, Maine, Vermont, and New Hampshire are the whitest states in the U.S. (96% white).

Utah doesn't even make it into the top 10 of America's whites states.   If, as you have posited, less racial diversity might be the leading cause of granting access to the American dream, each of those 10 other states should be doing better than Utah, but they aren't. 

None of the three are up to 96% white. 

Anyway, racism could still be the leading cause even if Utah is more diverse than other states.  There are after all more than one factor going into it. 

[stemelbow]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

Actually, the article made it clear that race and diversity is not a factor at all once you control for family structure.  In other words, marriage matters.  Race? Not so much.  

 

Correlation is not causation. 

[stemelbow]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

In that respect, Utah is no different than any other intermountain area of the USA, but certainly a much less violent past than most large American metropolitan areas, where minorities were savagely attacked and killed with great gusto -- whether Chinese, Mexicans, or African-Americans.  Some of that continues in many American cities, but not in Utah.  So how does that make it "being in the lead here"?  We have actually done a whole lot better than the rest of America in dealing with minority poverty, and have reached out to the needy throughout the world to a far greater extent than any other group.

I have seen both sides of this issue up close and personal.  I am a Californian who now lives in Utah, and my cousin Spencer Cox is the Lt Governor of Utah who just pushed a wonderful piece of anti-poverty legislation into law.  https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-03-28/how-utah-keeps-the-american-dream-alive .

Sure Utah is different in this regard.  Afterall Utah houses the center of Mormonism which religion had the racist teaching of denying a race priesthood and temple ordinances.  That gives Utah it's distinction when it comes to race. 

[stemelbow]

54 minutes ago, rongo said:

What's frustrating for me is that it seems to be impossible to free ourselves from this charge of racism from certain people. What, exactly, can Church members/the Church/Utah members do that will ever get this monkey off of our back, in your view?

I'd say acknowledging the racism of the past is a start.  But that start doesn't seem to have ever been made, largely.  The essay form 2013 is close to it, but it's just an obscure piece with some mention. 

54 minutes ago, rongo said:

I lived in Utah for about 6 years, and in my experience, the vast majority of Utah people in general, and Mormons in particular, are accepting and friendly towards other races. It seems to me to be more of a canard than anything. When I used to work at Motorola a long time ago, a black co-worker was asking questions about the Church, and he commented that there were so few black members of the Church. I smiled, and told him that we would *love* to have many more. Our struggles attracting black investigators and converts are at least as much due to unfounded cultural perceptions from the black community as they can rightly be laid at the feet of Mormons or the Church. This is frustrating to me.

Racism is frustrating to many of us.  It is not easily done away with because we want it gone.  the effects linger in so many ways.