New First Vision Video

[Danzo]

13 hours ago, JulieM said:

I've repeatedly stated that the age difference is only one aspect of what I find disturbing regarding Joseph's plural marriages.  Cinepro stated my feelings well.  If you want to focus solely on the age difference, I understand, but for me there is more to the discussion regarding Joseph's marriages.

Maybe answer this question and you'll see where I'm coming from:

Why such secrecy if Joseph's marriage to Helen and others were so common for back then?

I Understand that you have much deeper issues with joseph smith than him marrying a 14 year old.  I just want make sure that the arguments are addressing those issues and not that issues.

Basically, what I understand you (and cinepros, and others problem) is that you think there is a possibility that Joseph smith was some sort of sexual predator who took advantage of his position for the purpose of sexual gratification.

Am I correct?

 

 

[Tacenda]

5 minutes ago, Danzo said:

I Understand that you have much deeper issues with joseph smith than him marrying a 14 year old.  I just want make sure that the arguments are addressing those issues and not that issues.

Basically, what I understand you (and cinepros, and others problem) is that you think there is a possibility that Joseph smith was some sort of sexual predator who took advantage of his position for the purpose of sexual gratification.

Am I correct?

 

 

If it were present day, Joseph Smith would have been considered to have taken advantage. 

[Danzo]

7 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Think about how your retellings alter and how you choose to alter them based on the audiences or circumstances. Now imagine a third party is trying to use your witness accounts as evidence of your experience, and you are writing a thesis based on your experience visiting Dachau.

Now imagine that, chronologically, the changes in your retelling correspond to significant changes to your thesis made over time, with details changing to support that thesis. Can you understand that your witness testimony changing when it seems to be convenient should generate doubt in anyone charged to evaluate your thesis?

In my opinion I don't think it really would create doubt.

I remember my grandfathers stories about WW2, he had many of them.  Some of the stories were inconsistent.  My grandfather even wrote them down and was going to publish a history of himself.  He passed away before he completed the process. What my mother did was gather all of the drafts of what he had written down and gave each of his kids a copy of it.  It is pretty facinating. Since he never had time to polish and rewrite a consistent story, what we now have is a collection of stories or essays that often are about the same thing. Stories are repeated in different ways often with different facts. Makes it so it isn't exactly an easy read. Much of the experience of war was violent  and he didn't want to talk about it, so he seems that some things were kept vague on purpose.

Now I could use the fact that his many drafts contain contradictions to say he was never in world war II or that he was just a big liar.  I don't see that as being the case and neither does anyone who knew him.  Maybe if I shared with you what we he had written, you would conclude that this guy was unreliable and that you couldn't trust him.  We just see it as someone struggling to put his memories in to writing, struggling to find the right words to say and struggling to know how much to write down.  

[Danzo]

7 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

If it were present day, Joseph Smith would have been considered to have taken advantage. 

So you picture him as a sexual predator. 

when I look at the history of the people involved.  Did they view him as a sexual predator.  Did any of his wives view him as such?

 

[Tacenda]

4 minutes ago, Danzo said:

So you picture him as a sexual predator. 

when I look at the history of the people involved.  Did they view him as a sexual predator.  Did any of his wives view him as such?

 

If he were in this present day, and he went to women and told them they must marry him either because their family would be exalted in the CK or because he would be killed by an angel with a flaming sword, it might not seem right. 

In their day and time though, I understand that they may have thought the end was coming. That might make people do things they would never dream of. And if they believe in D&C 132. Which in my mind seems a little sketchy, but that's me.

I don't know, how would you feel about it? In this day and age? Maybe with your wife or daughter being asked to marry them?

https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/no-weapon-shall-prosper/subject-can-bear-investigation-anguish-faith-and-joseph-smiths

"Though Helen returned to sacrificial metaphors throughout her writings, her voice in the 1880s rang with conviction regarding her decision. With other Saints then weathering a storm of federal prosecution and national opprobrium, she at times wrote about her life as though all her striving had brought her future blessings only: “The Latter-day Saints do not desire tribulation, but they look for little else in this life. . . . No earthly inducement could be held forth to the women who entered this order. It was to be a life-sacrifice for the sake of an everlasting glory and exaltation.” [32] In other moments, though, she demanded that readers understand that it was all worth it. Responding to criticisms that Latter-day Saint women were coerced or cajoled into polygamy or that their lives were miserable, Helen maintained that Joseph Smith’s revelation (D&C 132) contained “the words of the Lord.” For her, that spiritual conviction was the key. “The Latter-day Saints would not enter into this holy order of matrimony unless they had received some stronger and more convincing proofs of its correctness than the testimony of a man, for in obeying this law it has cost them a sacrifice nearly equal to that of Abraham.” [33] Latter-day Saint women, she wrote, bravely stood with Sarah, Rachel, Leah, and other godly women, “lawful and honored wives” in sacred history who had heard God’s word and obeyed. [34]" (bold mine)

[bluebell]

36 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

If it were present day, Joseph Smith would have been considered to have taken advantage. 

Probably so.  And if people today were being judged by people from JS's day, i'm sure many would be considered to be some very unsavory things as well.  Most women, for example, would be considered to be harlots and unchaste, just for wearing make up.

How people from different centuries would judge each other doesn't matter, in and of itself.  

[Danzo]

6 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

If he were in this present day, and he went to women and told them they must marry him either because their family would be exalted in the CK or because he would be killed by an angel with a flaming sword, it might not seem right. 

In their day and time though, I understand that they may have thought the end was coming. That might make people do things they would never dream of. And if they believe in D&C 132. Which in my mind seems a little sketchy, but that's me.

I don't know, how would you feel about it? In this day and age? Maybe with your wife or daughter being asked to marry them?

https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/no-weapon-shall-prosper/subject-can-bear-investigation-anguish-faith-and-joseph-smiths

"Though Helen returned to sacrificial metaphors throughout her writings, her voice in the 1880s rang with conviction regarding her decision. With other Saints then weathering a storm of federal prosecution and national opprobrium, she at times wrote about her life as though all her striving had brought her future blessings only: “The Latter-day Saints do not desire tribulation, but they look for little else in this life. . . . No earthly inducement could be held forth to the women who entered this order. It was to be a life-sacrifice for the sake of an everlasting glory and exaltation.” [32] In other moments, though, she demanded that readers understand that it was all worth it. Responding to criticisms that Latter-day Saint women were coerced or cajoled into polygamy or that their lives were miserable, Helen maintained that Joseph Smith’s revelation (D&C 132) contained “the words of the Lord.” For her, that spiritual conviction was the key. “The Latter-day Saints would not enter into this holy order of matrimony unless they had received some stronger and more convincing proofs of its correctness than the testimony of a man, for in obeying this law it has cost them a sacrifice nearly equal to that of Abraham.” [33] Latter-day Saint women, she wrote, bravely stood with Sarah, Rachel, Leah, and other godly women, “lawful and honored wives” in sacred history who had heard God’s word and obeyed. [34]" (bold mine)

It doesn't appear that Helen view herself as a victim of a sexual predator.

But good thing you know better.  

If only you were around back then, she could have found out just how bad she had been treated.

 

[JulieM]

12 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Probably so.  And if people today were being judged by people from JS's day, i'm sure many would be considered to be some very unsavory things as well.  

What Joseph was doing, was unsavory in his day too.  Otherwise, why such secrecy?

[JulieM]

1 hour ago, Danzo said:

I Understand that you have much deeper issues with joseph smith than him marrying a 14 year old.  I just want make sure that the arguments are addressing those issues and not that issues.

Basically, what I understand you (and cinepros, and others problem) is that you think there is a possibility that Joseph smith was some sort of sexual predator who took advantage of his position for the purpose of sexual gratification.

Am I correct?

I've never thought of him as a sexual predator.  I think he loved women and simply wasn't a one woman man.  I believe he deeply loved Emma and didn't want to hurt her.  IMO, women were his weakness and he used his power and position to convince others he'd had a revelation and was commanded to be with many women.  I don't believe he was bad or evil.

 

[JulieM]

27 minutes ago, Danzo said:

It doesn't appear that Helen view herself as a victim of a sexual predator.

You seem to be attached to that label "sexual predator".  There's a lot in between being loyal to your spouse and cheating on them that doesn't include being a sexual predator.  It's not that extreme.

Helen's feelings and views changed over the years.  I love reading her writings and think she was an incredible woman.  She did seem to feel like a victim at first or that she'd been tricked.  But her feelings evolved.  

I'm sure you know that just because a victim doesn't complain, that doesn't mean they may still be a victim.  I'm not saying this is the case here, but just pointing that out.

Edited March 8, 2017 by JulieM

[Danzo]

3 minutes ago, JulieM said:

 She did seem to feel like a victim at first or that she'd been tricked.  

why do you say this?

[Danzo]

4 minutes ago, JulieM said:

You seem to be attached to that label "sexual predator".

Perhaps I am misreading your opinion of Joseph Smith. You view him as just a cheater?

[JulieM]

1 minute ago, Danzo said:

why do you say this?

Read her early writings.  She didn't seem to understand it was going to be actual marriage and even stated she thought of herself as an "abused child".  

[Danzo]

7 minutes ago, JulieM said:

I'm sure you know that just because a victim doesn't complain, that doesn't mean they can still be a victim.  I'm not saying this is the case here, but just pointing that out.

True. but someone claiming they weren't a victim does create a high bar to overcome.  I was a juror in a trial where we decided to acquit because the alleged victim said that she wasn't a victim. There were no other witnesses so we had to rely on what she said happened.

I suggest we might take the same course of action here; rely on those that were witnesses.

[JulieM]

3 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Perhaps I am misreading your opinion of Joseph Smith. You view him as just a cheater?

I do believe he was unfaithful to Emma (starting with Fanny).  I think he lied to her and deceived her. 

[Danzo]

Just now, JulieM said:

Read her early writings.  She didn't seem to understand it was going to be actual marriage and even stated she thought of herself as an "abused child".  

I am afraid I am unaware of the her writings were she said she was abused by Joseph Smith.

Could you provide a link or a quote?

[JulieM]

1 minute ago, Danzo said:

I am afraid I am unaware of the her writings were she said she was abused by Joseph Smith.

That's not what I stated. 

[Danzo]

Just now, JulieM said:

I do believe he was unfaithful to Emma (starting with Fanny).  I think he lied to her and deceived her. 

So for you, the victim was Emma.

What was Emma's opinion of Joseph?

Do we have any writings from Emma that show whether she had positive or negative things to say about Joseph?

[JLHPROF]

27 minutes ago, JulieM said:

What Joseph was doing, was unsavory in his day too.  Otherwise, why such secrecy?

Polygamy was unsavory to the Victorian mindset being contrary to the traditions of the time.
Age of a wife like Helen was never mentioned as an issue.  Even his greatest detractors (Bennett, Law, Marks, Foster, etc) never mentioned the age of polygamous wives as an issue in any of their exposes.
Because it wasn't.
 

[Danzo]

Just now, JulieM said:

That's not what I stated. 

I am sorry I misunderstood you.  You stated earlier that certain writings by Helen, she called herself an "abused Child". I thought that you might be referring to abuse by Joseph (since he is the topic of the thread).  Was she abused by someone else?

[JulieM]

7 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Polygamy was unsavory to the Victorian mindset being contrary to the traditions of the time.
Age of a wife like Helen was never mentioned as an issue.  Even his greatest detractors (Bennett, Law, Marks, Foster, etc) never mentioned the age of polygamous wives as an issue in any of their exposes.
Because it wasn't.

I've been consistent here with stating that the age of some of his wives are not the only aspect of Joseph's marriages that I find troubling.  And yes, the manner in which he practiced polygamy was unsavory for that time.  That was the point I was making.  There would have been no need for all the secrecy and lies if it had been acceptable.

Edited March 8, 2017 by JulieM

[JulieM]

9 minutes ago, Danzo said:

So for you, the victim was Emma.

What was Emma's opinion of Joseph?

Do we have any writings from Emma that show whether she had positive or negative things to say about Joseph?

Either you haven't studied or read how Emma felt about polygamy, or you're asking questions you know the answers to.  Did she still love Joseph even after all he did that involved the lies and deceit?  Yes, I believe she did.

That doesn't change how she felt about him being with other women and girls though.  

Why do you believe she hated polygamy?

[bluebell]

34 minutes ago, JulieM said:

What Joseph was doing, was unsavory in his day too.  Otherwise, why such secrecy?

The polygamy, for sure, but I doubt the age of his brides would have been that big of an issue the surrounding society, especially on the western frontier, and that's what i thought we were talking about.  

My point was that society is not a great barometer on what is moral and what isn't.  For one, society's views on the subject are constantly changing, and for another, whether or not something is viewed by the majority to be acceptable has no impact whatsoever on whether or not God finds it acceptable.

So i think it's reasonable to say that JS would not be seen favorably today if he lived in this era and did everything exactly as he did in the mid 1800's (just like it's reasonable to say that if we lived in his era, and did everything exactly as we do today, we would not be seen favorably).  

But it's not reasonable to try to argue that that has any impact on whether or not he's a prophet of God. 

[JLHPROF]

11 minutes ago, JulieM said:

I've been consistent here with stating that the age of some of his wives are not the only aspect of Joseph's marriages that I find troubling.  And yes, the manner in which he practiced polygamy was unsavory for that time.  That was the point I was making.  There would have been no need for all the secrecy and lies if it had been acceptable.

I agree.
However I don't see the fact that it was unacceptable in society to be an issue, nor even a guide to right and wrong.
Societies have been wrong on moral issues since the beginning of time.

[JLHPROF]

6 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Why do you believe she hated polygamy?

Jealousy.  What other reason would she need?