The purpose of Church

[Rain]

Now the pupose of church.  It goes back to the scripture: the church did meet together oft to fast and to pray, and to speak one with another concerning the welfare of their souls. And (to partake of the sacrament.)

I don't think it is a bad thing to speak up over this kind of thing IF you do it with the right state of heart.  I was just reading about this in the 7 Habits book.  I will see if I can copy this. Really, there was a lot more to this that I highly recommend reading. He gives ideas and examples that were really helpful for me in understanding.

"My experience has been that there are times to teach and times not to teach. When relationships are strained and the air charged with emotion, an attempt to teach is often perceived as a form of judgment and rejection. But to take the child alone, quietly, when the relationship is good and to discuss the teaching or the value seems to have much greater impact."

This is why it is important to know when to speak up in church.

I mentioned awile ago that when crocheting in RS years ago someone very critically and openly expressed judgment on me for crocheting on Sunday. One of the things the Spirit told me after I got over my embarrassment was that I needed to get to know her better. So I started going over to her house to get to know her better.  As I talked with her I began to understand her better. As I understood her better, she became less critical. 

I'm not saying that you should go over to this man's house and become best buds. I'm just saying that you cannot change him,  but maybe before making choices about whether to keep going to church, based in part of what other people say or who they are, it might be wise to understand them better.  

And now I am really debating on posting this because I realize that I don't have a good understanding of your heart either so who am I to give advice?

 

[stemelbow]

49 minutes ago, Rain said:

I think asking is a great way too study it out,  but 'm not sure anyone can really answer that question without knowing the Lord's while plan, because one person leaning has an effect on others around him,  but also on posterity. This is not a thing that only affects self.

So I have to go back to the whole prayer thing and being willing to do what the Lord wants and doing what you need to in order to hear the answers.  I know that answer gets scoffed at by some, but if your actions affect the eternal lives of so many then God is the only one who can give the answer. 

Don't get me wrong.  I'm not trying to guilt you into staying. I, personally, think staying is the best answer,  but I can't receive inspiration for someone else. I just know that with the most important decisions in my own life it has been critical to make sure I am willing to hear and live the Lord's answer. 

 

Thanks I'd agree.  It's all individual.  God works on the person, it seems.

[stemelbow]

18 minutes ago, Rain said:

Now the pupose of church.  It goes back to the scripture: the church did meet together oft to fast and to pray, and to speak one with another concerning the welfare of their souls. And (to partake of the sacrament.)

I don't think it is a bad thing to speak up over this kind of thing IF you do it with the right state of heart.  I was just reading about this in the 7 Habits book.  I will see if I can copy this. Really, there was a lot more to this that I highly recommend reading. He gives ideas and examples that were really helpful for me in understanding.

"My experience has been that there are times to teach and times not to teach. When relationships are strained and the air charged with emotion, an attempt to teach is often perceived as a form of judgment and rejection. But to take the child alone, quietly, when the relationship is good and to discuss the teaching or the value seems to have much greater impact."

This is why it is important to know when to speak up in church.

I mentioned awile ago that when crocheting in RS years ago someone very critically and openly expressed judgment on me for crocheting on Sunday. One of the things the Spirit told me after I got over my embarrassment was that I needed to get to know her better. So I started going over to her house to get to know her better.  As I talked with her I began to understand her better. As I understood her better, she became less critical. 

I'm not saying that you should go over to this man's house and become best buds. I'm just saying that you cannot change him,  but maybe before making choices about whether to keep going to church, based in part of what other people say or who they are, it might be wise to understand them better.  

And now I am really debating on posting this because I realize that I don't have a good understanding of your heart either so who am I to give advice?

 

It's fine advice.  I know the guy, have played basketball with him quite a bit.  But, it really is, in my mind, one opinion/event added to many other opinions/events that have led me here.  I'm still thinking about finding a time to go talk to him one on one.  Not sure it'll be a productive event or not.  I dont' know that he's willing to hear from me, so we'll see. 

I agree, and really want the Church to be a place, wherein we meet together to worship, partake of the sacrament giving us time to personally reflect and all that and then really be a good open place where we can share with each other exactly what we're going through and dealing with.  In my estimation the Church has put itself in a corner on too many things wherein people aren't welcome to share plenty of stuff that would otherwise be great things to discuss as it pertains to the welfare of our souls. 

[Rivers]

There is a great chapter in the book The Crucible of Doubt by Terryl and Fiona Givens called "The Role and Function of the Church."  They advise that we should go to church to serve rather than look to be served.  Its like that famous JFK quote but with the church.

[Gray]

10 hours ago, Rivers said:

There is a great chapter in the book The Crucible of Doubt by Terryl and Fiona Givens called "The Role and Function of the Church."  They advise that we should go to church to serve rather than look to be served.  Its like that famous JFK quote but with the church.

Honorable, but my experience with church is that a lot of people are going, attempting to serve others, but very few are actually getting served. It bears looking into finding ways to more effectively serve, so that that the service has impact and that more people can be edified. I think we fly too much by the seat of our pants and rely on manuals too much to take the place of real training and dedication. It may not be fixable without some kind of semi-professional clergy situation. 

[stemelbow]

15 hours ago, Rivers said:

There is a great chapter in the book The Crucible of Doubt by Terryl and Fiona Givens called "The Role and Function of the Church."  They advise that we should go to church to serve rather than look to be served.  Its like that famous JFK quote but with the church.

It's certainly not bad advice to say we should go to church to serve.  For sure.  We should probably do all that we do in the spirit of service.  But if all we did was serve, we'd have no one to serve.   

[Meadowchik]

On Tuesday, February 14, 2017 at 3:43 PM, CV75 said:

When the “real Church” has become non-existent, that would be apostasy. While I believe some apostate belief systems are better than others (accommodate the light of Christ better than others), and the Lord might lead someone into one belief system over another, He certainly does not instigate apostasy nor lead someone out of the real Church. Even within these apostate systems, I believe His aim, however long-term, is to bring people to a fullness of the Gospel.

 

I suppose there could be a unit of the real Church where the members are so toxic, dysfunctional and beyond correction that the unit must be closed. But the faithful who hold to “the eternal truth of the restored gospel” will still be provided another unit where they can enjoy the full blessings. Otherwise the Lord will look to them to endure as the leaven and improve the situation for the struggling unit that remains open, from the inside out.

 

At the same time, I’m sure the Lord continues to reach out to someone who has decided to leave such a branch or ward. If he can respond to the Lord's reaching and feel His Spirit outside of that environment, he will soon be inclined to do whatever it takes to partake of the sacrament, go to the temple, etc.

 

I have abandoned the assumption that all those who have "fallen away" have all fallen. We are all human beings, all built differently and perceiving differently. I think it quite possible that one person's perception of the "same" Church experience to be quite different from another's. 

And so, letting that lead to its infinite number of possibilities, there may really be people who need to not be in church, and not always because of sin.

Edited February 15, 2017 by Meadowchik

[JLHPROF]

30 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

I have abandoned the assumption that all those who have "fallen away" have all fallen. We are all human beings, all built differently and perceiving differently. I think it quite possible that one person's perception of the "same" Church experience to be quite different from another's. 

And so, letting that lead to its infinite number of possibilities, there may really be people who need to not be in church, and not always because of sin.

If they have violated their covenants as part of the "falling away" process then they have fallen and it is sin.

[CV75]

3 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I have abandoned the assumption that all those who have "fallen away" have all fallen. We are all human beings, all built differently and perceiving differently. I think it quite possible that one person's perception of the "same" Church experience to be quite different from another's. 

And so, letting that lead to its infinite number of possibilities, there may really be people who need to not be in church, and not always because of sin.

I didn’t use the term “fallen away”. I believe some have just “gone away” for reasons of their own. To quote Elder Uchtdorf again, “…we respect those who honestly search for truth. It may break our hearts when their journey takes them away from the Church we love and the truth we have found, but we honor their right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their own conscience, just as we claim that privilege for ourselves.” https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/10/come-join-with-us?lang=eng I would say that includes those who conclude they need to not be in church.

I do not believe God leads them to that conclusion (and what I believe is inconsequential as far as they are concerned), but that belief comes a far second to my belief in honoring personal agency. While He only leads in one direction, He does not give up reaching out to lead.

[Rain]

11 hours ago, Gray said:

Honorable, but my experience with church is that a lot of people are going, attempting to serve others, but very few are actually getting served. It bears looking into finding ways to more effectively serve, so that that the service has impact and that more people can be edified. I think we fly too much by the seat of our pants and rely on manuals too much to take the place of real training and dedication. It may not be fixable without some kind of semi-professional clergy situation. 

I too think that sometimes we don't serve well.  It seems to me though the problem comes more from not really listening for needs,  not willing to share when you have a need and sometimes just being unable to think out of the box. The go to service is to bring in a meal for nearly everything out there. Meals are wonderful, but there are so many other ways to serve at church during services and away. 

[Meadowchik]

6 hours ago, CV75 said:

I didn’t use the term “fallen away”. I believe some have just “gone away” for reasons of their own. To quote Elder Uchtdorf again, “…we respect those who honestly search for truth. It may break our hearts when their journey takes them away from the Church we love and the truth we have found, but we honor their right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their own conscience, just as we claim that privilege for ourselves.” https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/10/come-join-with-us?lang=eng I would say that includes those who conclude they need to not be in church.

 

I do not believe God leads them to that conclusion (and what I believe is inconsequential as far as they are concerned), but that belief comes a far second to my belief in honoring personal agency. While He only leads in one direction, He does not give up reaching out to lead.

 

That's the thing--and thank you for the very apt quote--what but the Spirit of Christ leads a person to be true to their conscience?

[CV75]

5 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

That's the thing--and thank you for the very apt quote--what but the Spirit of Christ leads a person to be true to their conscience?

I believe the only thing that leads a person to be true to his conscience is his own will, and neither the Spirit nor the devil. While we typically consider the conscience to be the light of Christ, our management of that light is up to us individually. The conscience can be seared (1 Timothy 4:2), past feeling (Moroni 9:20) and self-defined (Isaiah 50:11) as well as divinely quickened (D&C 88:7-11).

Whatever condition his conscience is in, it is his will alone that keeps him true to it or not. He can allow his will to be influenced, informed and led by the Spirit (repentance), or by the devil (rebellion). Because of our limited spiritual perspective, I do not suppose we can shut ourselves off from both influences, or shut ourselves off from one without submitting to the other. But God certainly honors our agency, whatever we choose. I think this might be why we might use the term "invite" than "lead."

[rongo]

11 hours ago, Rain said:

I too think that sometimes we don't serve well.  It seems to me though the problem comes more from not really listening for needs,  not willing to share when you have a need and sometimes just being unable to think out of the box. The go to service is to bring in a meal for nearly everything out there. Meals are wonderful, but there are so many other ways to serve at church during services and away. 

One of the hardest things for me has been to accept service and help for myself and my family. I don't think less of people who need help, and I love helping them, but it was very hard for me to be on the receiving end, and that has been a thing I need to repent of. 

A few months after I was called as a bishop for the first time, my wife was hospitalized twice for a couple of months each time. We had four small children at the time, and after exhausting my paid leave, I had to take FMLA time to take care of the kids and visit her. The generosity and service of both our ward/stake and colleagues at the school was overwhelming, but at first I was quite embarrassed to be in need. We didn't receive any fast offering help, because there wasn't a need --- it was literally like the end scene from "It's a Wonderful Life" where Bedford Falls is pouring in and adding what they can to help George Bailey. I was able to get over the embarrassment of needing help, and I was really grateful. This was a humbling experience for me! 

I've learned that it just as important to be able to appropriately receive service as it is to give service. The former is the harder of the two, for me, because of pride.

[Rain]

6 hours ago, rongo said:

One of the hardest things for me has been to accept service and help for myself and my family. I don't think less of people who need help, and I love helping them, but it was very hard for me to be on the receiving end, and that has been a thing I need to repent of. 

A few months after I was called as a bishop for the first time, my wife was hospitalized twice for a couple of months each time. We had four small children at the time, and after exhausting my paid leave, I had to take FMLA time to take care of the kids and visit her. The generosity and service of both our ward/stake and colleagues at the school was overwhelming, but at first I was quite embarrassed to be in need. We didn't receive any fast offering help, because there wasn't a need --- it was literally like the end scene from "It's a Wonderful Life" where Bedford Falls is pouring in and adding what they can to help George Bailey. I was able to get over the embarrassment of needing help, and I was really grateful. This was a humbling experience for me! 

I've learned that it just as important to be able to appropriately receive service as it is to give service. The former is the harder of the two, for me, because of pride.

It used to be a lot harder for me.  Some years ago I heard a talk about being a good receiver by E, I think, Elder Eyring.  I decided that I would do better with that. EVERY time my VT came she asked what she could do for me.  I always told her there was nothing, and in truth there really was nothing.  But she seemed to want to so badly and I had just heard this talk so the next time she asked I told her something I could use help with.  And she turned me down!  I actually laughed about it with my family latter.  The next month she asked again...and she turned me down again!  This time I was frustrated.  This woman is very sweet.  Our family loves her.  She does do a lot of things for others. Finally, I just made it a prayer to find out what kind of service "Jane" could do for me.  I finally asked her if she would keep my son's name on the prayer rolls when she went in for her shift to the temple.  Being a good receiver did not go how I was thinking it would go with all of that.  lol  I can laugh over it again now.

Later, my husband lost his job.  We had a savings.  We had food storage.  We were doing ok.  Within about 2 months he had another job, though it meant that we moved out of state to here.  I can remember very clearly though the Spirit telling me "let others help you."  I could have argued with the Spirit because financially we really didn't need help, but I decided that I would do what he asked.  It was the sweetest experience or receiving little bits of help from this person and that one.  It really changed my whole outlook on giving and receiving.  It's made me see how much  sweeter it is for the giver as well when I am a good and grateful receiver.    

 

[why me]

On 13.2.2017 at 6:14 PM, stemelbow said:

 

I was appalled.  It really made me sick to think he had this conversation with this girl.  This girl did nothing wrong, at least as his story indicated.  She did not drink.  She was a victim.  I was really down and not feeling good about it.  Really I was sick to my stomach, but I went to GD class anyway.  At some point the conversation about his talk broke out with everyone praising his part in the story and the "failure" of the girl.  I felt defeated at this time and didn't respond, which I regret.  I was just so disappointed.  I'm sad to think about this girl.  I'm sad to think those in my ward have such a view that it's ok, no, not ok, but that it's best to tell a girl she made bad choices and thus was raped.  That's not how to talk to a victim of rape, right?  That is in my view, probably the most destructive and heartless way he could have handled the conversation. 

 

Is it possible God will lead people out of the Church for HIs own purposes?  I've always felt like He does.  The Church is just one teeny tiny org among many resources God has to lead and guide people, to help us along.  I'm guessing some of you would not in a million years consider it like this.  But, if you are that way, I want to understand that too.  I want to know why or how. 

 

I will comment on these two parts of your post. For the last paragraph. Maybe God can lead people out of the church for the person's own purposes. And not for his own purpose. Lets say someone is struggling in the lds church and can find no comfort. But the person does find some comfort in the Catholic Church. Why not lead that person to the Catholic Church? I am sure that this can happen.

Now the first paragraph. Every church has well meaning people that seems to get their well meaningness wrong. This is not just a church issue but a human issue. If the person's heart was in the righjt place, I see no problem with the person. But the person can be corrected. Also, people encourage people to pray about the craziest things even keys. Catholics can encourage someone to pray to saint joseph for help etc. in finding keys and many other things. It is quite natural. Now of course, the  critics will blame the lds church for the opinions of the man you mentioned. But it is actually just a person showing his imperfectiveness.

Some claim that eveyone has a guardian angel. Where was the guardian angel in such circumstances as with the girl? Does this nullify the notion of gurardian angels that many faiths claim exist? Bad things happen to people every day. Why doesn't god interfere and change the heart of the rapist before he commits the act?

On a side note: the other board have picked up your post and are now using it against the church. Such is life.

Edited February 18, 2017 by why me