bsjkki Posted January 18, 2017 Posted January 18, 2017 Stories highlighting a letter sent to President Worthen protesting the appointment of two new Title IX coordinators at BYU, have sparked a plethora of lds blog pieces. Sexual assault victims are upset with the appointment of BYU insiders to the Title IX office who supported BYU's honor code/title IX policies last year. They named Carrie Jenkins and Tiffany Turley to the positions. The other concern is these two women have had no previous experience as Title IX coordinates or victim advocates. I agree, the two appointees should receive all the necessary training needed to do their jobs effectively. I find their other complaint a little over the top. I think both these women will do what BYU wants them to do. If BYU wants them to defend current or past practices they will do so. If BYU wants them to follow the recommendations for Title IX found in the BYU Advisory Council report and advocate for victims, I think they will do that too. http://www.feministmormonhousewives.org/2017/01/30178/ https://wheatandtares.org/2017/01/17/byus-title-ix-pick-prompts-an-open-letter-to-pres-worthen/ http://www.the-exponent.com/a-statement-and-open-letter-to-byu-from-sexual-assault-survivors-and-byu-alumni/ https://www.scribd.com/document/328990626/BYU-Advisory-Council-Report#from_embed
Robert F. Smith Posted January 19, 2017 Posted January 19, 2017 6 hours ago, bsjkki said: Stories highlighting a letter sent to President Worthen protesting the appointment of two new Title IX coordinators at BYU, have sparked a plethora of lds blog pieces. Sexual assault victims are upset with the appointment of BYU insiders to the Title IX office who supported BYU's honor code/title IX policies last year. They named Carrie Jenkins and Tiffany Turley to the positions. The other concern is these two women have had no previous experience as Title IX coordinates or victim advocates. I agree, the two appointees should receive all the necessary training needed to do their jobs effectively. I find their other complaint a little over the top. I think both these women will do what BYU wants them to do. If BYU wants them to defend current or past practices they will do so. If BYU wants them to follow the recommendations for Title IX found in the BYU Advisory Council report and advocate for victims, I think they will do that too. http://www.feministmormonhousewives.org/2017/01/30178/ https://wheatandtares.org/2017/01/17/byus-title-ix-pick-prompts-an-open-letter-to-pres-worthen/ http://www.the-exponent.com/a-statement-and-open-letter-to-byu-from-sexual-assault-survivors-and-byu-alumni/ https://www.scribd.com/document/328990626/BYU-Advisory-Council-Report#from_embed What do you want Jenkins and Turley to do? Which policy would you prefer? And generally, do you think that Victim Services in Provo do an adequate job? I'm speaking of the unit run by Kortney Hughes. http://fox13now.com/2016/11/02/500k-federal-grant-will-help-treat-victims-of-domestic-violence-and-sexual-assault-in-provo/ . There is also such a unit for all of Utah County -- http://www.utahcounty.gov/Dept/Sheriff/Information/VictimServices.asp . Should BYU Title IX people defer to these more professional units for protective orders and prosecution, and will they suggest that BYU student victims seek assistance there?
Popular Post Thinking Posted January 19, 2017 Popular Post Posted January 19, 2017 (edited) While I was at BYU, the professor in one of my classes was leading a discussion about responsibility and accountability. He made a statement which I will paraphrase that I think fits this situation. "You should be wary of any organization whose primary goal is to protect the organization more than doing what's right." If the administrators at BYU put the needs of the victims first, I believe they will make good decisions. Edited January 19, 2017 by Thinking 6
bsjkki Posted January 19, 2017 Author Posted January 19, 2017 9 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: What do you want Jenkins and Turley to do? Which policy would you prefer? And generally, do you think that Victim Services in Provo do an adequate job? I'm speaking of the unit run by Kortney Hughes. http://fox13now.com/2016/11/02/500k-federal-grant-will-help-treat-victims-of-domestic-violence-and-sexual-assault-in-provo/ . There is also such a unit for all of Utah County -- http://www.utahcounty.gov/Dept/Sheriff/Information/VictimServices.asp . Should BYU Title IX people defer to these more professional units for protective orders and prosecution, and will they suggest that BYU student victims seek assistance there? I think Jenkins and Turley will do what BYU wants them to do so I agree with Thinking, that if BYU has decided to put the needs of the victims first, Jenkins and Turley will do so. I don't know anything about the unit run by Kortney Hughes but I would hope BYU will provide any and all victim services available to students and contact law enforcement when appropriate.
Robert F. Smith Posted January 19, 2017 Posted January 19, 2017 4 hours ago, bsjkki said: I think Jenkins and Turley will do what BYU wants them to do so I agree with Thinking, that if BYU has decided to put the needs of the victims first, Jenkins and Turley will do so. I don't know anything about the unit run by Kortney Hughes but I would hope BYU will provide any and all victim services available to students and contact law enforcement when appropriate. Well, of course Jenkins and Turley will do as they are told, or they will be fired. I understand that. What I asked was what your preference is. In addition, should BYU Title IX matters be handled internally? Or should it be normal practice to seek outside victim services and prosecution? Which would be more effective in the long run?
Thinking Posted January 19, 2017 Posted January 19, 2017 39 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Well, of course Jenkins and Turley will do as they are told, or they will be fired. I understand that. What I asked was what your preference is. In addition, should BYU Title IX matters be handled internally? Or should it be normal practice to seek outside victim services and prosecution? Which would be more effective in the long run? With alleged sexual assault, I believe that outside victim services and prosecution should be involved. While at BYU back in the 80's I received a traffic ticket on the BYU campus. I was so happy when I learned that the ticket wouldn't go on my driving record because it happened on private property. What happens at BYU stays at BYU. I hope BYU treats sexual assault not like a traffic ticket, but like the serious crime that it is. 1
Johnnie Cake Posted January 19, 2017 Posted January 19, 2017 (edited) 15 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: What do you want Jenkins and Turley to do? Title IX advocates should be independent from the University that employs them. They should be advocates for the women and NOT the university. They would need to demonstrate the ability to stand up for the interests of the women they represent even when it conflicts with the interests of the University. This is what has been missing from BYU...a completely transparent Title IX policy that instills confidence in the women the policy is created to serve, that their best interests will come before those of BYU. If these woman can demonstrate this level of independence...then I'm guessing that they will be fine...but right now they have not been able to instill this level of confidence in the women that they have been hired to represent...and that is the problem...they have much to prove. Edited January 19, 2017 by Johnnie Cake 2
bsjkki Posted January 19, 2017 Author Posted January 19, 2017 17 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: Title IX advocates should be independent from the University that employs them. They should be advocates for the women and NOT the university. They would need to demonstrate the ability to stand up for the interests of the women they represent even when it conflicts with the interests of the University. This is what has been missing from BYU...a completely transparent Title IX policy that instills confidence in the women the policy is created to serve, that their best interests will come before those of BYU. If these woman can demonstrate this level of independence...then I'm guessing that they will be fine...but right now they have not been able to instill this level of confidence in the women that they have been hired to represent...and that is the problem...they have much to prove. I agree with you and think they should be given a chance to fulfill their new jobs. I'm giving BYU the chance to show they will adopt all 23 recommendations from their advisory committee and run the Title IX office as it is supposed to be run.
Tacenda Posted January 19, 2017 Posted January 19, 2017 (edited) I think having Elizabeth Smart's opinion helped get things going, along with news reports. Edited January 19, 2017 by Tacenda 1
Johnnie Cake Posted January 19, 2017 Posted January 19, 2017 37 minutes ago, bsjkki said: I agree with you and think they should be given a chance to fulfill their new jobs. I'm giving BYU the chance to show they will adopt all 23 recommendations from their advisory committee and run the Title IX office as it is supposed to be run. Agreed...
The Nehor Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 2 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: Title IX advocates should be independent from the University that employs them. They should be advocates for the women and NOT the university. They would need to demonstrate the ability to stand up for the interests of the women they represent even when it conflicts with the interests of the University. This is what has been missing from BYU...a completely transparent Title IX policy that instills confidence in the women the policy is created to serve, that their best interests will come before those of BYU. If these woman can demonstrate this level of independence...then I'm guessing that they will be fine...but right now they have not been able to instill this level of confidence in the women that they have been hired to represent...and that is the problem...they have much to prove. This is an unrealistic pipe-dream. Unless you can find volunteers to staff a Title IX office out of the goodness of their hearts while funding themselves completely you either have to employ the Title IX advocates themselves or fund an outside agency to provide them (assuming they exist). In either case they are financially under the University's financial thumb if the University chooses to use that power to fire them. Remember there are no federal requirements for such an advocate and the government is not going to foot the bill for "independent advocates". If you want an advocate guaranteed to be devoted to your cause you can hire one. They are called lawyers and can fight cases under Title IX. There are probably also other independent groups that will fight these kinds of cases but expecting BYU to pay their way is kind of insane. 4
strappinglad Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 Well, I spent a while reading through the articles on Title IX in Wikipedia . Lots of info there ( Yes , I know, caveat, caveat... ). Interesting to me how a couple of lines in a bill can result in such vast change in society and warehouses full of debates and arguments. The lawyers , at least , must be thrilled. I also find it interesting that the assumption by most here is that when it comes to sexual assault on campus, the victims are exclusively female. Could it be that Rutgers , in its original form , and Douglas , its sister school were on to something?
Lemuel Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 4 hours ago, Thinking said: What happens at BYU stays at BYU. That's written on the front entrance, right?
bsjkki Posted January 20, 2017 Author Posted January 20, 2017 This article in the Salt Lake Tribune is worth reading. President Worthen defended his Title IX coordinators. They also hired a former NCIS agent names Marcus Williams. "Our Title IX coordinator and victim advocate are participating in professional training these next two weeks, where they are collaborating and discussing important issues with their peers across the country," he wrote. "That ongoing training will continue in the future." Before being named the new Title IX coordinator, Turley was manager of the university's Women's Services and Resources. Leavitt worked as a psychologist in the university's student counseling center. Worthen noted Williams "is well trained in responding to sexual assault issues. The Department of Defense has made multiple changes to adopt a trauma-informed and victim-centered approach to sexual assault investigations." He also ended the letter stating, " "Sexual assault is an abhorrent offense that violates sacred doctrines — such as moral agency, the sanctity of the body and the sacred nature of marriage and sexual intimacy — that are central to the restored gospel of Jesus Christ," he said. "We will not cease to work on the issue until our campus is safe for all." http://www.sltrib.com/news/4835422-155/byu-president-defends-new-hires-in 2
Thinking Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 1 hour ago, Lemuel said: That's written on the front entrance, right? The actual sign reads the world is our campus but the running joke is that it really means the campus is our world. How's that for some chiasmus?
Kenngo1969 Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 (edited) As though it really needs to be said, yes, sexual assault is deplorable. Yes, there is room for discussion about how it should be handled at Brigham Young University. Those things having been said, in my opinion, the handwringing about these appointments is premature: it creates the impression that there is no possible way BYU's detractors possibly could be pleased. If the performance of the personnel in their new roles proves to be deficient, by all means, bring that to the attention of BYU's powers-that-be. Absent such deficient performance, however, such a hue-and-cry appears even to reasonable observers as simply protesting to protest: As Tom Brown once wrote of his faculty nemesis at Oxford at Christchurch, "I do not love thee, Dr. Fell. The reason why, I cannot tell. But this I know, and know full well: I do not love thee, Dr. Fell." Edited January 20, 2017 by Kenngo1969 1
Johnnie Cake Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 15 hours ago, The Nehor said: This is an unrealistic pipe-dream. Unless you can find volunteers to staff a Title IX office out of the goodness of their hearts while funding themselves completely you either have to employ the Title IX advocates themselves or fund an outside agency to provide them (assuming they exist). In either case they are financially under the University's financial thumb if the University chooses to use that power to fire them. Remember there are no federal requirements for such an advocate and the government is not going to foot the bill for "independent advocates". If you want an advocate guaranteed to be devoted to your cause you can hire one. They are called lawyers and can fight cases under Title IX. There are probably also other independent groups that will fight these kinds of cases but expecting BYU to pay their way is kind of insane. And yet that is the standard required by law...or BYU can chose to forgo federal funding...including that received via federal insured student loans... The penalties are quite severe to the university should they fail to comply...and exposes them to financial liability should they fail to meet the standards set out in the law...something I'm sure BYU is experiencing first hand at the moment due to past violations
The Nehor Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 2 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: And yet that is the standard required by law...or BYU can chose to forgo federal funding...including that received via federal insured student loans... The penalties are quite severe to the university should they fail to comply...and exposes them to financial liability should they fail to meet the standards set out in the law...something I'm sure BYU is experiencing first hand at the moment due to past violations Uhhhhh.....nope. The school is required to have at least one person who investigates Title IX violations (does not have to be their only responsibility). They then have certain obligations under that law in investigating them. Your made up standards are not in the law and are not followed by other universities either. Of course you seem to have a grudge against anything carrying the taint of LDS affiliation so your self-righteous anger and condemnation are amazingly localized and selective. 1
Johnnie Cake Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 6 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Uhhhhh.....nope. The school is required to have at least one person who investigates Title IX violations (does not have to be their only responsibility). They then have certain obligations under that law in investigating them. Your made up standards are not in the law and are not followed by other universities either. Of course you seem to have a grudge against anything carrying the taint of LDS affiliation so your self-righteous anger and condemnation are amazingly localized and selective. BYU is a fine institution. While not a graduate of the Y, many of my close personal friends are. I hold no grudge against the Y. With respect to the thread subject, Title IX coordinators are required to put the interests of the individual above those of the university that pays their salary. If they fail to do so they put the university at risk of liability. The Y failed to do so which is why the Y is under federal investigation. Compliance does not lead to investigations
The Nehor Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 2 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: BYU is a fine institution. While not a graduate of the Y, many of my close personal friends are. I hold no grudge against the Y. With respect to the thread subject, Title IX coordinators are required to put the interests of the individual above those of the university that pays their salary. If they fail to do so they put the university at risk of liability. The Y failed to do so which is why the Y is under federal investigation. Compliance does not lead to investigations And the goalposts go charging down the field. I criticize your inane proposal and somehow you jump to me defending BYU's past policies and decisions. 1
Calm Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 5 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: And yet that is the standard required by law...or BYU can chose to forgo federal funding...including that received via federal insured student loans... The penalties are quite severe to the university should they fail to comply...and exposes them to financial liability should they fail to meet the standards set out in the law... CFR please.
Johnnie Cake Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 9 minutes ago, The Nehor said: And the goalposts go charging down the field. I criticize your inane proposal and somehow you jump to me defending BYU's past policies and decisions. Honestly I tire of our constant back and forth...I'm only trying to make the point that title IX coordinators are independent from the university administrations. Their sole purpose is to represent those who allege discrimination, sexual abuse or other forms of inequality. If they fail to do so they expose their employer to liability why is this something you feel the need to argue against? Chill out dude
Johnnie Cake Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Calm said: CFR please. Oh brother. Really?https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/letters/colleague-201504-title-ix-coordinators.pdf Edited January 20, 2017 by Johnnie Cake
The Nehor Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 20 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: Honestly I tire of our constant back and forth...I'm only trying to make the point that title IX coordinators are independent from the university administrations. Their sole purpose is to represent those who allege discrimination, sexual abuse or other forms of inequality. If they fail to do so they expose their employer to liability why is this something you feel the need to argue against? Chill out dude No, they are not independent from the administration. The instructions you linked to say they should be independent in that they report to the University President or to some senior organization or person. This is explicitly not the kind of independence you were advocating.
Calm Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: Oh brother. Really?https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/letters/colleague-201504-title-ix-coordinators.pdf I am not familiar with the law's details. Thank you for providing that info. It is 8 pages, where is the part about the required independence from the administration? "The Title IX coordinator’s role should be independent to avoid any potential conflicts of interest and the Title IX coordinator should report directly to the recipient’s senior leadership..." This appears to indicate they are not independent of administration, but need to be independent of conflicts of interests. Edited January 20, 2017 by Calm 1
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