rodheadlee Posted December 31, 2016 Posted December 31, 2016 The thread "My Prediction" got shut down before i had a chance to post some scripture regarding Jerusalem. I think the entire book of Zechariah should be read but this is a pertinent section in chapter 12 regarding the fate of Jerusalem. I'd like to keep this thread comprised of scripture regarding Jerusalem in the latter days and your interpretation of it or the church's interpretation. Zech 12: 1 The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the aearth, and formeth the bspirit of man within him. 2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a acup of trembling unto all the bpeople round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. 3 ¶ And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be agathered together against it. 4 In that day, saith the Lord, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. 5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the Lord of hosts their God. 6 ¶ In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an ahearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the bpeople round about, on the right hand and on the left: and cJerusalem shall be dinhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
rodheadlee Posted December 31, 2016 Author Posted December 31, 2016 These verses in Zechariah 2 are the call for Judah to come home to Jerusalem and the Lord will be with them. Zech2: 1 I lifted up mine eyes again, and looked, and behold a man with a measuring aline in his hand. 2 Then said I, Whither goest thou? And he said unto me, To measure Jerusalem, to see what is the breadth thereof, and what is the length thereof. 3 And, behold, the angel that talked with me went forth, and another angel went out to meet him, 4 And said unto him, Run, speak to this young man, saying, Jerusalem shall be ainhabited as towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein: 5 For I, saith the Lord, will be unto her a wall of afire round about, and will be the bglory in the midst of her. 6 ¶ Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the anorth, saith the Lord: for I have bspread you abroad as the cfour winds of the heaven, saith the Lord. 7 aDeliver thyself, O Zion, that dwellest with the daughter of Babylon. 8 For thus saith the Lord of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye. 9 For, behold, I will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me.
The Nehor Posted December 31, 2016 Posted December 31, 2016 As a matter of practicality Zechariah 12 suggests that Israel will be protected but will be a burden to all nations. Sounds like the best advice is to leave Israel alone whether you are for it or against it. Zechariah 2 may be dualistic but its primary purpose is to have the Israelites come home from actual historical Babylon.
thesometimesaint Posted December 31, 2016 Posted December 31, 2016 Jerusalem was ended in 70 CE by the Romans.
Glenn101 Posted December 31, 2016 Posted December 31, 2016 34 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: Jerusalem was ended in 70 CE by the Romans. Seems to still be on my map of the world. 2
Robert F. Smith Posted January 1, 2017 Posted January 1, 2017 6 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: On my map it is البلاط. You mean to imply albalat almalaki "the royal court, palace"? Most Arabs call it al-Quds "The Holy."
longview Posted January 1, 2017 Posted January 1, 2017 The Temple will be built. I call it the Fifth Temple (1-Moses' Tabernacle, 2-Temple of Solomon, 3-Temple of Zerubabbel, 4-Refurbished Temple of Herod, 5-the Latter Day Temple to be built in Old Jerusalem replacing the moslem buildings, 6-the Latter Day Temple to be built in Independence Missouri). Some previous LDS leaders (I forget who) have stated that the moslem buildings will be moved somewhere else.
Robert F. Smith Posted January 1, 2017 Posted January 1, 2017 19 minutes ago, longview said: The Temple will be built. I call it the Fifth Temple (1-Moses' Tabernacle, 2-Temple of Solomon, 3-Temple of Zerubabbel, 4-Refurbished Temple of Herod, 5-the Latter Day Temple to be built in Old Jerusalem replacing the moslem buildings, 6-the Latter Day Temple to be built in Independence Missouri). Some previous LDS leaders (I forget who) have stated that the moslem buildings will be moved somewhere else. You left out at least a dozen Israelite temples along with most LDS temples -- not to mention all the other temples built by various groups throughout the world. Just because worship was centralized on Jerusalem in the 8th century B.C. doesn't mean that there were not other temples. For example, Bryce Haymond lists a large number of Israelite temples on his graphic at http://www.templestudy.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/Ancient-Israelite-Temples-Timeline4.jpg , including temples at Gilgal, Mt Gerizim, Mt Ebal, Shechem, Shilo, Kiryat Yearim, Gibeon, Arad, Megiddo, Lachish, Beersheba, Dan, Bethel, Elephantine, and Leontopolis, which leaves out a large number of Israelite sanctuaries and high places at which Levites regularly functioned. 1
longview Posted January 1, 2017 Posted January 1, 2017 11 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: You left out at least a dozen Israelite temples along with most LDS temples -- My focus is on the major (top flight) temples throughout Israelite history. I consider the SLC temple to be the current major temple. If I heard right, the SLC temple is the only one that has the "Holy of Holies" (I believe it is next to the Celestial Room). I remember reading a couple decades ago of an Israeli general calling another on the phone as the Six Day War was unfolding, asking the question: "Is this the end of the Fifth Temple?" I believe my labeling of the six temples I listed in my previous post to be "on track." Speaking of Shiloh, it was the major temple of its time (although it was still in the form of tent like fabrics of Moses' tabernacle). It was destroyed by the Philistines (the namesake of modern day Palestinians) as direct result of the corruption and thievery by the sons of Eli, the High Priest, as attested to by Samuel the Seer. Then occurred the amazing trek of the Ark of the Covenant as it was taken to various places in Philistine territory, wreaking havoc on the heathens. The temple of Solomon was destroyed as a direct result of the repeated desecrations and thievery of the Jerusalem priestly leaders and kings, as attested to by Jeremiah. The temple of Herod was destroyed in 70 A.D. as a direct result of the priestcrafts of the Pharisees and others (the money changers), as attested to by Jesus. The temple that will be built at Independence Missouri will be part of a powerful center called the New Jerusalem. Both the old and new Jerusalems will be the two ruling capitals of the world during the Millennium. 1
thesometimesaint Posted January 1, 2017 Posted January 1, 2017 15 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: You mean to imply albalat almalaki "the royal court, palace"? Most Arabs call it al-Quds "The Holy." Yep.
cdowis Posted January 1, 2017 Posted January 1, 2017 Let add an interesting possibility, this great war will be initiated as a result of attempts to prevent Iran from producing nuclear weapons.
strappinglad Posted January 2, 2017 Posted January 2, 2017 When, to the best estimate, was Zechariah written?
Marmonboy Posted January 2, 2017 Posted January 2, 2017 It is my understanding that there is an opinion in Islam (not unlike a similar belief in Christianity) that the Islamic version of the Second Coming will not happen until the Muslims capture Jerusalem and wipe out the Jews. It sounds very much like the Battle of Armageddon in Christian belief, but with a different outcome. Rather than the returning Christ desroying the invaders, the Muslim savior (whose name escapes me--somebody here will tell us, I'm sure) will wipe out the Jews. My big concern is that a segment of the Muslim populace will attempt to hasten this apocalypse, either because they're getting crushed on some battlefield somewhere (think of it as a last ditch, game-saving Hail-Mary type play) or because they have grown sufficiently powerful that they decide to just go for it. Either way, I fear the time is far spent and we are assuredly in the very last days. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted January 2, 2017 Posted January 2, 2017 12 hours ago, longview said: My focus is on the major (top flight) temples throughout Israelite history. I consider the SLC temple to be the current major temple. If I heard right, the SLC temple is the only one that has the "Holy of Holies" (I believe it is next to the Celestial Room). I remember reading a couple decades ago of an Israeli general calling another on the phone as the Six Day War was unfolding, asking the question: "Is this the end of the Fifth Temple?" I believe my labeling of the six temples I listed in my previous post to be "on track." Speaking of Shiloh, it was the major temple of its time (although it was still in the form of tent like fabrics of Moses' tabernacle). It was destroyed by the Philistines (the namesake of modern day Palestinians) as direct result of the corruption and thievery by the sons of Eli, the High Priest, as attested to by Samuel the Seer. Then occurred the amazing trek of the Ark of the Covenant as it was taken to various places in Philistine territory, wreaking havoc on the heathens. The temple of Solomon was destroyed as a direct result of the repeated desecrations and thievery of the Jerusalem priestly leaders and kings, as attested to by Jeremiah. The temple of Herod was destroyed in 70 A.D. as a direct result of the priestcrafts of the Pharisees and others (the money changers), as attested to by Jesus. .............................................................................. Jeremiah was himself a priest, and his two scribes were also priests. In Jesus' time the priestly party was the Sadducees. The reason for the destruction of both the First and Second Temples (on the same day and month each time) was failure of the Jewish people in general to obey the Lord. The entire congregation of Israel was at fault, not simply certain leaders. And for the past two thousand years, their rabbis have told the Jewish people that the Diaspora was caused by their failure to follow the commandments. They blame themselves, and they actively seek to repent.
Robert F. Smith Posted January 2, 2017 Posted January 2, 2017 4 hours ago, strappinglad said: When, to the best estimate, was Zechariah written? Since Zechariah is considered by many scholars to be a composite work begun at the same time as Haggai (with which it has much in common) the date of the various sections is all over the map -- from 520 B.C on into the Persian period.
strappinglad Posted January 2, 2017 Posted January 2, 2017 1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said: Since Zechariah is considered by many scholars to be a composite work begun at the same time as Haggai (with which it has much in common) the date of the various sections is all over the map -- from 520 B.C on into the Persian period. I wonder if there has been any time in the last 2500 years that might be seen as the fulfillment of the OPs scriptures about Jerusalem. Of course , prophecies can be fulfilled several times and it seems to me that citizens of Jerusalem during various eras like 70 AD or the crusades etc. could be excused for thinking Zech. was speaking of them.
Rajah Manchou Posted January 2, 2017 Posted January 2, 2017 6 hours ago, Marmonboy said: It is my understanding that there is an opinion in Islam (not unlike a similar belief in Christianity) that the Islamic version of the Second Coming will not happen until the Muslims capture Jerusalem and wipe out the Jews. It sounds very much like the Battle of Armageddon in Christian belief, but with a different outcome. Rather than the returning Christ desroying the invaders, the Muslim savior (whose name escapes me--somebody here will tell us, I'm sure) will wipe out the Jews. My big concern is that a segment of the Muslim populace will attempt to hasten this apocalypse, either because they're getting crushed on some battlefield somewhere (think of it as a last ditch, game-saving Hail-Mary type play) or because they have grown sufficiently powerful that they decide to just go for it. The end day prophesies of Islam, Christianity and Judaism (and even Buddhism) have been interconnected for millennia. There is a lot of overlap and it becomes impossible to distinguish between the characters and events. For example, you mention the Muslim savior. This could be Jesus, or al Mahdi, both who are anticipated to return in the last days. But there is also the anti-Christ (dajjal) who may appear as Jesus and lead many Christians and Muslims into error. Just like we see in Palestine/Israel today. Lines are not always drawn across religious boundaries. Palestinian Christians have historically identified more closely with their Muslim neighbors than the have the recent populations (mostly Jewish) that have built settlements on land that they have lived on for 2000+ years. As the situation deteriorates in the Middle East, it will be hard to predict allegiances and draw lines. I suspect we'll see Palestinian Muslims fighting with Palestinian Christians against Zionists and Evangelical Christians and foreign Muslims. Each group will hold up their "messiah(s)" which opposing groups will identify as the anti-christ(s). One perfect example of how messy and confusing things can get, watch this video with Hugo Chavez suggesting Jesus and "true Christians" will join with Mahdi and "true Muslims": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5xWEi2pMsg Politicians use religion to push their agenda. We need to be careful about letting Muslim, Christian and Jewish extremists define scripture for us. 1
The Nehor Posted January 2, 2017 Posted January 2, 2017 10 hours ago, cdowis said: Let add an interesting possibility, this great war will be initiated as a result of attempts to prevent Iran from producing nuclear weapons. So we should stop? While I agree in general with nuclear non-proliferation it seems strange that the one nation to ever use them in war is trying to limit their existence to a select few nations.
longview Posted January 2, 2017 Posted January 2, 2017 11 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Jeremiah was himself a priest, and his two scribes were also priests. I noticed that you bolded my phrase "priestcrafts of the Pharisees." My personal definition for the term priestcraft includes not only abuse of priesthood authority or office but also any profession in which the "insiders" contrive greater exclusivity for their position and potential for self-enrichment and to drastically reduce membership of the group. One example might be the AMA (American Medical Association). They have put in place several very difficult hurdles, such as long years of university training, extraordinarily expensive tuition, arduous internship (long hours of duty with very little sleep), etc. There can be varying degrees among individuals and professions. The Pharisees abused their position by allowing kings to "charge" candidates to attaining the office of High Priest at the temple. And for allowing the "money changers" to carry out their racket in the temple courtyards. I agree that there was widespread corruption among Jewish populations throughout Israeli history.
theplains Posted January 2, 2017 Posted January 2, 2017 On 31/12/2016 at 8:42 PM, Robert F. Smith said: You mean to imply albalat almalaki "the royal court, palace"? Most Arabs call it al-Quds "The Holy." If I remember correctly, Jerusalem is never mentioned in the Quran. It seems to have become important to Muslims only after Israel miraculously defeated their enemies in 1948 and subsequent wars. Jim
cdowis Posted January 2, 2017 Posted January 2, 2017 (edited) 14 minutes ago, theplains said: If I remember correctly, Jerusalem is never mentioned in the Quran. It seems to have become important to Muslims only after Israel miraculously defeated their enemies in 1948 and subsequent wars. Jim Well, Jim, it is possible that it became important after Mohammed ascended into heaven from the very spot of the temple in Jerusalem. The Dome of the Rock is now at that location, and presents a slight problem for those who want to rebuild the Temple. Quote One of the most famous Islamic monuments in the world is the Dome of the Rock which stands on the site of the original Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. It is the third-holiest in the Muslim world after the Ka'aba in Mecca and Prophet's Mosque in Medina and commemorates the alleged occasion of Muhammad's ascent through the seven heavens to the very presence of Allah. It stands above the rock from which Muhammad is believed to have ascended to heaven. As one observer commented, before the temple can be rebuilt, there will either be a miracle where an earthquake brings it down, or another miracle where it is bought down by dynamite. Edited January 2, 2017 by cdowis 1
theplains Posted January 2, 2017 Posted January 2, 2017 5 minutes ago, cdowis said: Well, Jim, it is possible that it became important when Mohammed ascended into heaven from the very spot of the temple in Jerusalem. http://jerusalem.com/articles/islam/muhammads_night_journey_to_jerusalem-a6295 "Muhammad's Night Journey, an important part of the Islamic tradition, relays the story of the prophet's transportation from Mecca to "the farthest mosque", which is believed to be the Al Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem. The Quran does not mention this as Jerusalem. Jim
cdowis Posted January 2, 2017 Posted January 2, 2017 (edited) 18 minutes ago, theplains said: http://jerusalem.com/articles/islam/muhammads_night_journey_to_jerusalem-a6295 "Muhammad's Night Journey, an important part of the Islamic tradition, relays the story of the prophet's transportation from Mecca to "the farthest mosque", which is believed to be the Al Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem. The Quran does not mention this as Jerusalem. Jim And you will note that I did not say it was. However, the Dome of the Rock IS in Jerusalem, so somebody thinks it happened there. Edited January 2, 2017 by cdowis
theplains Posted January 2, 2017 Posted January 2, 2017 2 minutes ago, cdowis said: And you will note that I did not say it was.f However, the Dome of the Rock IS in Jerusalem, so somebody thinks it happened there. You should read the Hadiths (the traditions) some day. A lot is attributed to Muhammad (what he said and did). Whereas he performed no miracles according to the Quran, the Hadith re-images him into someone more powerful. Jim
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