Calm Posted January 2, 2017 Posted January 2, 2017 57 minutes ago, theplains said: It seems to have become important to Muslims only after Israel miraculously defeated their enemies in 1948 and subsequent wars. Jim 691 AD is significantly before 1948. Are you suggesting that Muslims viewed the Dome of the Rock as unimportant before 1948. Have you heard of the Crusades?
Robert F. Smith Posted January 2, 2017 Posted January 2, 2017 15 hours ago, strappinglad said: I wonder if there has been any time in the last 2500 years that might be seen as the fulfillment of the OPs scriptures about Jerusalem. Of course , prophecies can be fulfilled several times and it seems to me that citizens of Jerusalem during various eras like 70 AD or the crusades etc. could be excused for thinking Zech. was speaking of them. If we look at Zechariah as a whole that is unlikely to be the case. Especially for a Mormon who takes seriously D&C 45:39-56, which describes the End-time with manifold Zechariah references (esp Zech 12:9-10, 13:6, 14:4).
Robert F. Smith Posted January 2, 2017 Posted January 2, 2017 4 hours ago, longview said: I noticed that you bolded my phrase "priestcrafts of the Pharisees." My personal definition for the term priestcraft includes not only abuse of priesthood authority or office but also any profession in which the "insiders" contrive greater exclusivity for their position and potential for self-enrichment and to drastically reduce membership of the group. One example might be the AMA (American Medical Association). They have put in place several very difficult hurdles, such as long years of university training, extraordinarily expensive tuition, arduous internship (long hours of duty with very little sleep), etc. There can be varying degrees among individuals and professions. The Pharisees abused their position by allowing kings to "charge" candidates to attaining the office of High Priest at the temple. And for allowing the "money changers" to carry out their racket in the temple courtyards. I agree that there was widespread corruption among Jewish populations throughout Israeli history. I always think it helpful to point out that both Jesus and Paul were Pharisaic rabbis (of Beth Hillel). That may appear shocking to those who do not understand that the Pharisaic version of Judaism was a powerfully ethical and moral one, which simultaneously claimed a tradition of unwritten interpretation of Scripture (the Mishnah). That is the rabbinic tradition which won out over other versions of Judaism in the course of time. Rabbis are teachers, not priests.
Robert F. Smith Posted January 2, 2017 Posted January 2, 2017 3 hours ago, cdowis said: Well, Jim, it is possible that it became important after Mohammed ascended into heaven from the very spot of the temple in Jerusalem. The Dome of the Rock is now at that location, and presents a slight problem for those who want to rebuild the Temple. As one observer commented, before the temple can be rebuilt, there will either be a miracle where an earthquake brings it down, or another miracle where it is bought down by dynamite. Religious Jews will likely wait until the Messiah comes to build their temple there.
Robert F. Smith Posted January 2, 2017 Posted January 2, 2017 3 hours ago, theplains said: If I remember correctly, Jerusalem is never mentioned in the Quran. It seems to have become important to Muslims only after Israel miraculously defeated their enemies in 1948 and subsequent wars. Jim Not so. Islam is an offshoot of Judaism, and the earliest Muslim direction of prayer (qibla) was toward Jerusalem -- as for Jews. Second, sura 17:1 says Quote "Exalted is He who took His Servant by night from al-Masjid al-Haram to al-Masjid al- Aqsa, whose surroundings We have blessed, to show him of Our signs." This has nothing to do with the 1948 war, is a thousand-year-old tradition, and is respected by Israeli law. 1
cdowis Posted January 2, 2017 Posted January 2, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said: Religious Jews will likely wait until the Messiah comes to build their temple there. ==The Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi of Israel, David Lau, said he would like to see the Jewish temple rebuilt on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. ==The Temple Institute, an organization in Jerusalem which works toward the rebuilding of the Third Temple, began a revolutionary campaign on Sunday to literally rebuild the Third Temple – through the power of crowdfunding. ==Third Temple Closer Than Ever as Search Begins for Eligible Jewish Priests The registry will include men who have a clear patriarchal heritage from the priestly class, were born and raised in Israel, and have observed the relevant laws of purity. ==According to an Army Radio expose the Israeli government has been subsidizing nonprofit organizations that call for the rebuilding of the Third Temple on the Temple Mount. According to the Jerusalem Post, over the past ten years the Education MinistryRead more at https://www.breakingisraelnews.com/tag/rebuilding-the-third-temple/#tLAcHpXdkIyE7PZr.99 ===The Temple Institute, an organization dedicated to preparing the reconstruction of a Third Temple in Jerusalem, has been attempting to identify Red Heifer candidates consistent with the requirements of Numbers 19:1–22 and Mishnah Tractate Parah.[5][6] In recent years, the institute thought to have identified two candidates, one in 1997 and another in 2002.[7] The Temple Institute had initially declared both kosher, but later found each to be unsuitable but currently claim that they have a third candidate. Of late, the Institute has been raising funds in order to use modern technology to produce a red heifer that is genetically based on the Red Angus.[8] wiki Edited January 2, 2017 by cdowis 1
strappinglad Posted January 3, 2017 Posted January 3, 2017 If one wants to set the stage for the Second Coming , demolishing the Dome of the Rock, will bring about many of the prophesied wars etc. I do, however , remember reading an article about how the Jewish temple actually was originally built much further down the mount, closer to the well , so maybe there would be no need for messing with the Dome. Does it count if the Red Heifer is genetically modified and not directly 'God produced ' ? Wouldn't some of the ' miracleness ' be lost ?
Robert F. Smith Posted January 3, 2017 Posted January 3, 2017 1 hour ago, strappinglad said: If one wants to set the stage for the Second Coming , demolishing the Dome of the Rock, will bring about many of the prophesied wars etc. I do, however , remember reading an article about how the Jewish temple actually was originally built much further down the mount, closer to the well , so maybe there would be no need for messing with the Dome. Does it count if the Red Heifer is genetically modified and not directly 'God produced ' ? Wouldn't some of the ' miracleness ' be lost ? The red heifer requirement needs no miracle to assist it. It is a straightforward matter. However, Israeli law prohibits damage to any Muslim holy sites, and demolishing the Dome of the Rock or Al Aqsa would not change that. No one will consider building the Jewish temple anywhere else.
theplains Posted January 4, 2017 Posted January 4, 2017 On 02/01/2017 at 2:57 PM, Calm said: Have you heard of the Crusades? http://www.sbts.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2016/10/SBJT-20.2-Stark-Case-for-Crusades.pdf Jim
thesometimesaint Posted January 8, 2017 Posted January 8, 2017 On 1/4/2017 at 3:34 PM, theplains said: http://www.sbts.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2016/10/SBJT-20.2-Stark-Case-for-Crusades.pdf Jim Gold. Glory, and the Gospel in that order.
Robert F. Smith Posted January 9, 2017 Posted January 9, 2017 4 hours ago, cdowis said: del Was that meant for me? I am so disappointed that I didn't get to read it. PM me.
The Nehor Posted January 9, 2017 Posted January 9, 2017 On 1/2/2017 at 4:25 PM, Robert F. Smith said: Not so. Islam is an offshoot of Judaism, and the earliest Muslim direction of prayer (qibla) was toward Jerusalem -- as for Jews. Actually Islam is an offshoot of Christianity. On 1/2/2017 at 8:14 PM, Robert F. Smith said: The red heifer requirement needs no miracle to assist it. It is a straightforward matter. You would think so but I suspect that the purity standards are way beyond the standards Moses and others used.
cdowis Posted January 9, 2017 Posted January 9, 2017 3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Was that meant for me? I am so disappointed that I didn't get to read it. PM me. No, it was a question about the Red Hefer, but had already been answered. 1
Atheist Mormon Posted January 12, 2017 Posted January 12, 2017 On 12/31/2016 at 1:45 AM, The Nehor said: As a matter of practicality Zechariah 12 suggests that Israel will be protected but will be a burden to all nations. Sounds like the best advice is to leave Israel alone whether you are for it or against it. Zechariah 2 may be dualistic but its primary purpose is to have the Israelites come home from actual historical Babylon. HahHa../..So apt..That's the special genius side of God......Create burdens for nations.......
The Nehor Posted January 12, 2017 Posted January 12, 2017 1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said: HahHa../..So apt..That's the special genius side of God......Create burdens for nations....... How is this odd. Christ is often referred to as a stumbling block.
Atheist Mormon Posted January 12, 2017 Posted January 12, 2017 (edited) 10 hours ago, The Nehor said: How is this odd. Christ is often referred to as a stumbling block. It's not odd at all, it's the reality.....Show me a Nation He elevated to a peaceful status.....(Very sorry for you Nehor you did not choose your side well)...Lucifer Wins almost everywhere.....; Edit to add; "No Jesus, it won't help you an iota to command "Get behind me Satan!!!!!" Edited January 12, 2017 by Atheist Mormon
thesometimesaint Posted January 12, 2017 Posted January 12, 2017 On 1/2/2017 at 2:25 PM, Robert F. Smith said: Not so. Islam is an offshoot of Judaism, and the earliest Muslim direction of prayer (qibla) was toward Jerusalem -- as for Jews. Second, sura 17:1 says This has nothing to do with the 1948 war, is a thousand-year-old tradition, and is respected by Israeli law. Not sure that is correct. IIRCC Islam is an offshoot from Abraham not Judah. I believe Islam teaches that The Dome of the Rock is where Abraham almost sacrificed Issac.
The Nehor Posted January 12, 2017 Posted January 12, 2017 9 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: Show me a Nation He elevated to a peaceful status..... Enoch's Zion, city of Melchizedek, Nephites/Lamanites right after Christ appeared. Now admittedly it is rare but God has a tendency to have high bars. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted January 13, 2017 Posted January 13, 2017 3 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: Not sure that is correct. IIRCC Islam is an offshoot from Abraham not Judah. I believe Islam teaches that The Dome of the Rock is where Abraham almost sacrificed Issac. Scholars understand that the saj'-oracular style of the Qur'an came from the prophetic style of the Quraish tribe of Muhammad's fathers, who already preached Islam. Since they already had biblical oral traditions, the Arabs were certainly familiar with the Hebrew Bible stories of Ibrahim and Ismail, of Yusuf, and of the great prophets such as Nebi Samwil. Muhammad saw himself as the "seal of the prophets," i.e., the end of a long line of Jewish and Arab prophets. Their kahins and kahinas were certainly equivalent to Jewish kohens. Muhammad knew the Jews and was familiar with the Jewish tribes which lived along the Incense Trail (the Hijaz, and into the Yemen). Much of Islam came directly from Jewish prayer and ritual, such as the five-times-a-day praying, the yellow heifer in Islam comes from the red heifer in Judaism (2:69), and the halal dietary laws (forbidding pork, for example). Indeed, it is likely that the strict hanifi monotheism familiar to Muhammad and clan was also taken from Jewish tradition (they even termed Ibrahim as "The Hanif"). Qur'an surah 12 has Yusuf preaching Islam (12:40-58), while the most important surah (2, "The Cow") says that Jews, Christians, and Sabaeans are "people of the Book" (2:62), and has its central focus on Ibrahim. Only when Muhammad could not gain the support of the Jews of the Hijaz (he consequently killed all the Jewish men and enslaved the women and children) did he then change the direction of prayer from focus on Jerusalem to Mecca (2:168). 2
ERayR Posted January 13, 2017 Posted January 13, 2017 On 1/2/2017 at 0:57 PM, Calm said: 691 AD is significantly before 1948. Are you suggesting that Muslims viewed the Dome of the Rock as unimportant before 1948. Have you heard of the Crusades? The difference is that in 1948 it finally came under Jewish control.
thesometimesaint Posted January 13, 2017 Posted January 13, 2017 15 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Scholars understand that the saj'-oracular style of the Qur'an came from the prophetic style of the Quraish tribe of Muhammad's fathers, who already preached Islam. Since they already had biblical oral traditions, the Arabs were certainly familiar with the Hebrew Bible stories of Ibrahim and Ismail, of Yusuf, and of the great prophets such as Nebi Samwil. Muhammad saw himself as the "seal of the prophets," i.e., the end of a long line of Jewish and Arab prophets. Their kahins and kahinas were certainly equivalent to Jewish kohens. Muhammad knew the Jews and was familiar with the Jewish tribes which lived along the Incense Trail (the Hijaz, and into the Yemen). Much of Islam came directly from Jewish prayer and ritual, such as the five-times-a-day praying, the yellow heifer in Islam comes from the red heifer in Judaism (2:69), and the halal dietary laws (forbidding pork, for example). Indeed, it is likely that the strict hanifi monotheism familiar to Muhammad and clan was also taken from Jewish tradition (they even termed Ibrahim as "The Hanif"). Qur'an surah 12 has Yusuf preaching Islam (12:40-58), while the most important surah (2, "The Cow") says that Jews, Christians, and Sabaeans are "people of the Book" (2:62), and has its central focus on Ibrahim. Only when Muhammad could not gain the support of the Jews of the Hijaz (he consequently killed all the Jewish men and enslaved the women and children) did he then change the direction of prayer from focus on Jerusalem to Mecca (2:168). IIRC Muhammad came a few years after Abraham.
Robert F. Smith Posted January 13, 2017 Posted January 13, 2017 13 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: IIRC Muhammad came a few years after Abraham. Yeh, about 2500 years after Ibrahim. Muhammad was on the road a lot on behalf of his wife's vast trading company. So he heard a lot of campfire stories in the evenings on the road. Met a lot of different types of people. He especially respected the Jews and was deeply disappointed when they rejected his new religion.
thesometimesaint Posted January 13, 2017 Posted January 13, 2017 1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said: Yeh, about 2500 years after Ibrahim. Muhammad was on the road a lot on behalf of his wife's vast trading company. So he heard a lot of campfire stories in the evenings on the road. Met a lot of different types of people. He especially respected the Jews and was deeply disappointed when they rejected his new religion. That's my understanding too. IIRC both Judaism and Islam claim a common ancestor to Abraham. Islam though Abraham's son Ishmael, and Judaism through Issac.
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