Danzo Posted October 7, 2016 Posted October 7, 2016 2 minutes ago, Gray said: To perhaps stretch the metaphor past its breaking point, you could be leaving the safety of the roof for a boat that will ultimately sink. I've attended bishop's trainings. Great if you want to learn how to manage tithing. Not so helpful for helping people bishops know how to deal with delicate personal problems. Funny how we think they need regular training when it comes to managing money, but we expect them to just wing it when it comes to these delicate personal issues. If God can step in and tell these bishops how to respond appropriately to victims of abuse, why can't God step in and tell them how to manage tithing funds? The fact is that revelation is not a substitute for study and training. Like I said, if you are going to the bishop expecting therapy, you're doing it wrong.
Tacenda Posted October 7, 2016 Author Posted October 7, 2016 39 minutes ago, rongo said: I haven't watched the video. I don't like these hidden camera exposes. Can someone tell me if the father, after secretly recording this, then posted it on the internet? Even if all is as it appears to be in this (based on comments), going about it in this way is completely inappropriate. This shows first and foremost attention and making the Church look bad as the primary motive, not "it's for the children." Even if one is upset at how his leader has worked with his children, this is not an appropriate way to go about addressing the issue. Unless one's goal is embarrassing the Church. The couple was probably on their way out, according to seeing this being talked about today on a podcast with this couple. The family left the church. Maybe they posted, not necessarily to embarrass, just to make a change? This couple had an issue mainly with the bishop. It's too bad, and I feel like I shouldn't have posted the video now, because most bishops will leave the touching part out since in the handbook it mentions they don't need to bring that up. And I need to make known, Danzo if they're reading, that I believe confessing sins is a good thing for so many out there, including my self. So I'm not against it, just that sometimes human error can hurt someone. I believe for a seven or eight year they shouldn't be quizzed about any sins they may have committed since as someone has pointed out, they haven't sinned before the age of accountability. 3
rongo Posted October 7, 2016 Posted October 7, 2016 2 minutes ago, Gray said: I've attended bishop's trainings. Great if you want to learn how to manage tithing. Not so helpful for helping people bishops know how to deal with delicate personal problems. Funny how we think they need regular training when it comes to managing money, but we expect them to just wing it when it comes to these delicate personal issues. If God can step in and tell these bishops how to respond appropriately to victims of abuse, why can't God step in and tell them how to manage tithing funds? The fact is that revelation is not a substitute for study and training. I think that "training" and "therapy" and "counseling" are overrated when it comes to counseling people with problems. Many of the people whom we refer to counselors and therapists aren't actually helped by the counseling or therapy; they are people who have "counsel-itis" and crave eternal counseling much like eternal students get four BAs and a couple of graduate degrees as a means of avoiding starting with life. I find President Packer's counsel about weaning people off of the counseling to be very https://www.lds.org/ensign/1975/08/self-reliance?lang=eng Life-experience and inherent wisdom are much more important, in my experience --- especially when helped by the Spirit and the mantle. God doesn't remote control leaders, and there are mistakes and botched/mishandled things. But overall, I think the system works very well for the overwhelming majority of people who follow their bishops' counsel. 2
rongo Posted October 7, 2016 Posted October 7, 2016 6 minutes ago, Tacenda said: The couple was probably on their way out, according to seeing this being talked about today on a podcast with this couple. The family left the church. Maybe they posted, not necessarily to embarrass, just to make a change? No surprise, whatsoever. I know families who have legitimate grievances and concerns about how priesthood leaders have handled things. But they work with higher-up leaders and have charity and compassion for the offending leader. And, above all, they strive to keep this dirty laundry out of the public sphere and to not inflict damage on the Church. This was quite obviously not the case in this case. If they wanted to "change the system" or "make sure this doesn't happen to anyone else," hidden-camera-video-posted-on-the-internet is not an effective way to bring about change. it reminds me of Elder Benson talking about the UN (I think it was in "The United Nations: Planned Tyranny") and how it exacerbates problems rather than solving them. He compared it to an arguing couple inviting neighbors in to hear their sides and take sides. I think trying to bring about change by trying to embarrass and shame the Church with hidden camera exposes has the opposite effect. And they know this --- that isn't the point. 4
Gray Posted October 7, 2016 Posted October 7, 2016 19 minutes ago, Danzo said: Like I said, if you are going to the bishop expecting therapy, you're doing it wrong. If you're expecting good counsel regarding personal problems, it's a roll of the dice. 1
Gray Posted October 7, 2016 Posted October 7, 2016 (edited) 14 minutes ago, rongo said: I think that "training" and "therapy" and "counseling" are overrated when it comes to counseling people with problems. Many of the people whom we refer to counselors and therapists aren't actually helped by the counseling or therapy; they are people who have "counsel-itis" and crave eternal counseling much like eternal students get four BAs and a couple of graduate degrees as a means of avoiding starting with life. I find President Packer's counsel about weaning people off of the counseling to be very https://www.lds.org/ensign/1975/08/self-reliance?lang=eng Life-experience and inherent wisdom are much more important, in my experience --- especially when helped by the Spirit and the mantle. God doesn't remote control leaders, and there are mistakes and botched/mishandled things. But overall, I think the system works very well for the overwhelming majority of people who follow their bishops' counsel. Whatever the limitations of professional training might be, it's still far superior compared to the limitations of having no professional training at all. Anti-intellectualism should have no place in the church. As Joseph Smith said, "superstition ... placing itself where it ought not, is oftentimes in the way of the prosperity of this Church." We should seek all truth, no matter what the source. Edited October 7, 2016 by Gray 1
Danzo Posted October 7, 2016 Posted October 7, 2016 1 minute ago, Gray said: If you're expecting good counsel regarding personal problems, it's a roll of the dice. If purpose is to get counsel, you are doing it wrong as well. Going to the bishop to see the man, isn't the right way to do it. Going to the bishop is symbolically going to the Lord. Sometimes, even often, the lord will answer through the bishop, but the bishop, as a person, is not the source of the answer. We don't go the bishop to receive the bishop's wisdom, or because his advice is better than others advice. Quite often, the answer will come through other means. Just because it comes from other means, doesn't mean going to the bishop was unnecessary, or even unhelpful. I have seen it work that way many times. Someone will say, "I can't go to the bishop, because I think he's an idiot " "Well you may be right, he may be an idiot, but you aren't going for his help, you are going for the Lords help" And their problem gets resolved once they see the bishop, and often, the solution doesn't come directly from the bishop. 3
Jeanne Posted October 7, 2016 Posted October 7, 2016 4 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said: Exactly. Now you're getting the hang of it
JAHS Posted October 7, 2016 Posted October 7, 2016 33 minutes ago, Gray said: 53 minutes ago, Danzo said: Like I said, if you are going to the bishop expecting therapy, you're doing it wrong. If you're expecting good counsel regarding personal problems, it's a roll of the dice. But the Bishop can and will recommend counseling with a trained LDS counselor. One who is professionally trained but understands the LDS culture and doctrines. 3
mfbukowski Posted October 7, 2016 Posted October 7, 2016 1 hour ago, rongo said: I'm kind of getting tired of the word "disavow" lately . . . So you disavow "disavow"?
mfbukowski Posted October 7, 2016 Posted October 7, 2016 1 hour ago, Danzo said: we need to suspend our judgement and just listen to it for its true purpose . . . Entertainment Ah! The first church reality show! A camera in a bishop's office- great idea! 2
thesometimesaint Posted October 7, 2016 Posted October 7, 2016 1 hour ago, rongo said: I think that "training" and "therapy" and "counseling" are overrated when it comes to counseling people with problems. Many of the people whom we refer to counselors and therapists aren't actually helped by the counseling or therapy; they are people who have "counsel-itis" and crave eternal counseling much like eternal students get four BAs and a couple of graduate degrees as a means of avoiding starting with life. I find President Packer's counsel about weaning people off of the counseling to be very https://www.lds.org/ensign/1975/08/self-reliance?lang=eng Life-experience and inherent wisdom are much more important, in my experience --- especially when helped by the Spirit and the mantle. God doesn't remote control leaders, and there are mistakes and botched/mishandled things. But overall, I think the system works very well for the overwhelming majority of people who follow their bishops' counsel. It is long past time that you disabused yourself of such idea's. SEE https://bycommonconsent.com/2012/01/04/mental-illness-and-george-albert-smith/
rongo Posted October 7, 2016 Posted October 7, 2016 41 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: It is long past time that you disabused yourself of such idea's. SEE https://bycommonconsent.com/2012/01/04/mental-illness-and-george-albert-smith/ I've been sending people to counselors for years now (LDS and secular). Sorry, but my experience is my experience.
Gray Posted October 7, 2016 Posted October 7, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, Danzo said: If purpose is to get counsel, you are doing it wrong as well. I think this would be news to most members of the church. Quote Going to the bishop to see the man, isn't the right way to do it. Going to the bishop is symbolically going to the Lord. Sometimes, even often, the lord will answer through the bishop, but the bishop, as a person, is not the source of the answer. We don't go the bishop to receive the bishop's wisdom, or because his advice is better than others advice. A recipe for disappointment. No bishop can speak for God. What is the purpose then of personal revelation? Quote Quite often, the answer will come through other means. Just because it comes from other means, doesn't mean going to the bishop was unnecessary, or even unhelpful. I have seen it work that way many times. Someone will say, "I can't go to the bishop, because I think he's an idiot " "Well you may be right, he may be an idiot, but you aren't going for his help, you are going for the Lords help" And their problem gets resolved once they see the bishop, and often, the solution doesn't come directly from the bishop. I've gotten plenty of bad counsel from bishops acting in their role as bishops. You know, we say we have no paid clergy at the ward level, but we have no real clergy at all. Bishops are trained to be ward managers. We give them the tools to handle operations and finance, and that's about it. Strange that we don't expect them to learn to handle operations and finance by the spirit alone. Edited October 7, 2016 by Gray
Danzo Posted October 7, 2016 Posted October 7, 2016 13 minutes ago, Gray said: I think this would be news to most members of the church. Not really
Danzo Posted October 7, 2016 Posted October 7, 2016 14 minutes ago, Gray said: A recipe for disappointment. No bishop can speak for God. What is the purpose then of personal revelation? Disagree with you there, as a presiding authority, he is there to represent god. That is what the priesthood is. The authority of god delegated to men. Many times people visit the bishop when they are having trouble with personal revelation. It is part of a system of checks and balances.
Danzo Posted October 7, 2016 Posted October 7, 2016 18 minutes ago, Gray said: I've gotten plenty of bad counsel from bishops acting in their role as bishops. Sorry to hear that. That has not been my experience, nor that of anyone I personally know.
Danzo Posted October 7, 2016 Posted October 7, 2016 21 minutes ago, Gray said: You know, we say we have no paid clergy at the ward level, but we have no real clergy at all. Bishops are trained to be ward managers. We give them the tools to handle operations and finance, and that's about it. Strange that we don't expect them to learn to handle operations and finance by the spirit alone. Every holder of the priesthood is part of the clergy. Training is held every Sunday, third hour. You should come sometime.
Gray Posted October 7, 2016 Posted October 7, 2016 10 minutes ago, Danzo said: Every holder of the priesthood is part of the clergy. Training is held every Sunday, third hour. You should come sometime. I've been there. It's not sufficient training, and it shows. The vast majority of us are not fit to be clergy. I think we could learn a lot from our Christian brothers and sisters on this.
Danzo Posted October 7, 2016 Posted October 7, 2016 4 minutes ago, Gray said: I've been there. It's not sufficient training, and it shows. The vast majority of us are not fit to be clergy. I think we could learn a lot from our Christian brothers and sisters on this. sorry to hear that your training isn't sufficient in your area Maybe you could suggest a better instructor.
Calm Posted October 7, 2016 Posted October 7, 2016 7 hours ago, Tacenda said: I disagree of course. There is something to not being under someone else or a go between but instead be beholden only to God. I believe it's conditioning that might hinder someone's spiritual growth.... Or it might help them. I know many who cannot feel a connection with God, he is too 'out there' to grab hold of for them, they even have doubts of his existence. Working with a bishop or others as his representative actually makes a God more real for them and helps them to learn to go to God for help and 'interviews' just as they do with his reps. Hard balance to achieve (increased trust towards God while avoiding dependence on the person trying to help lead you to God), the Spirit is essential.
Jeanne Posted October 7, 2016 Posted October 7, 2016 (edited) 56 minutes ago, Gray said: I think this would be news to most members of the church. A recipe for disappointment. No bishop can speak for God. What is the purpose then of personal revelation? I've gotten plenty of bad counsel from bishops acting in their role as bishops. You know, we say we have no paid clergy at the ward level, but we have no real clergy at all. Bishops are trained to be ward managers. We give them the tools to handle operations and finance, and that's about it. Strange that we don't expect them to learn to handle operations and finance by the spirit alone. When I have gone to the Bishop...he has gone to his wife. I would never do that again. I am sure they do the best they can..but hopefully a bishop will counsel for one with real problems..to get other counsel. Then again..if they are getting financial training...he could do my taxes. Edited October 7, 2016 by Jeanne 1
ksfisher Posted October 7, 2016 Posted October 7, 2016 3 hours ago, Gray said: If you're expecting good counsel regarding personal problems, it's a roll of the dice. Best advice I've heard from a former bishop on counseling people: "The longer you let people talk, the more likely they are to work out their problems on their own." 1
Gray Posted October 7, 2016 Posted October 7, 2016 30 minutes ago, Danzo said: sorry to hear that your training isn't sufficient in your area Maybe you could suggest a better instructor. It's the material. You can't feed people 8th grade educational material their whole lives and expect to produce college professors.
Gray Posted October 7, 2016 Posted October 7, 2016 4 minutes ago, ksfisher said: Best advice I've heard from a former bishop on counseling people: "The longer you let people talk, the more likely they are to work out their problems on their own." That sounds like great advice, actually.
Recommended Posts