Rasband Promises

[HappyJackWagon]

Elder Rasband made some promises during his talk on Sunday. He essentially said that if a person faithfully reads the Book of Mormon and keeps their covenants their testimony will be protected.

Quote

To all who wish to bolster their faith, I give you this promise: as you faithfully live the gospel of Jesus Christ and abide by its teachings, your testimony will be protected, and it will grow.

I have a couple of questions:

1- Do prophets and apostles have the right to make these kinds of promises? Do they have power to keep their promises or do they have the right to promise things for God?

2- How should I view an apostle who makes a "promise" that in my experience isn't valid? Should I give him a pass for good intentions even though he is promising something to people I know doesn't hold up? (I "know" because I was faithfully living the gospel, serving faithfully, attending the temple, studying the scriptures, saying prayers etc etc)

3- Should I dismiss his promise as empty rhetoric of a man or empty rhetoric of a prophet?

 

 

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Elder Rasband made some promises during his talk on Sunday. He essentially said that if a person faithfully reads the Book of Mormon and keeps their covenants their testimony will be protected.

I have a couple of questions:

1- Do prophets and apostles have the right to make these kinds of promises? Do they have power to keep their promises or do they have the right to promise things for God?

2- How should I view an apostle who makes a "promise" that in my experience isn't valid? Should I give him a pass for good intentions even though he is promising something to people I know doesn't hold up? (I "know" because I was faithfully living the gospel, serving faithfully, attending the temple, studying the scriptures, saying prayers etc etc)

3- Should I dismiss his promise as empty rhetoric of a man or empty rhetoric of a prophet?

 

 

He's pretty new at this apostle business I guess. And his comment was a little naive, it's frustrating to listen to something like that. It's as if someone who doesn't live up to it, then we failed, not his promise. This thought process is the same when we are told to read the BoM and get a testimony of it, pretty much if we don't then it must be something wrong with us.

Moroni 10:4

And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

[HappyJackWagon]

6 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

He's pretty new at this apostle business I guess. And his comment was a little naive, it's frustrating to listen to something like that. It's as if someone who doesn't live up to it, then we failed, not his promise. This thought process is the same when we are told to read the BoM and get a testimony of it, pretty much if we don't then it must be something wrong with us.

Moroni 10:4

And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

It's definitely a tactic which places all the blame on the victim (the person who struggles with testimony) while absolving the church (teachings, policies, history etc) of any responsibility. If you don't have a testimony it's your fault because you weren't faithful to begin with. "Naïve" is a kind word for it

 

[stemelbow]

19 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Elder Rasband made some promises during his talk on Sunday. He essentially said that if a person faithfully reads the Book of Mormon and keeps their covenants their testimony will be protected.

I have a couple of questions:

1- Do prophets and apostles have the right to make these kinds of promises? Do they have power to keep their promises or do they have the right to promise things for God?

2- How should I view an apostle who makes a "promise" that in my experience isn't valid? Should I give him a pass for good intentions even though he is promising something to people I know doesn't hold up? (I "know" because I was faithfully living the gospel, serving faithfully, attending the temple, studying the scriptures, saying prayers etc etc)

3- Should I dismiss his promise as empty rhetoric of a man or empty rhetoric of a prophet?

 

 

I think it's a good question we should be asking ourselves.  I've normally gone with the number 3 option, basically. 

[hope_for_things]

21 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Elder Rasband made some promises during his talk on Sunday. He essentially said that if a person faithfully reads the Book of Mormon and keeps their covenants their testimony will be protected.

I have a couple of questions:

1- Do prophets and apostles have the right to make these kinds of promises? Do they have power to keep their promises or do they have the right to promise things for God?

2- How should I view an apostle who makes a "promise" that in my experience isn't valid? Should I give him a pass for good intentions even though he is promising something to people I know doesn't hold up? (I "know" because I was faithfully living the gospel, serving faithfully, attending the temple, studying the scriptures, saying prayers etc etc)

3- Should I dismiss his promise as empty rhetoric of a man or empty rhetoric of a prophet?

1.  Anyone can make a promise, but do they have the ability to deliver the results?  I would argue no.  

2. I think his intentions were good, but he's assuming that his paradigm will apply equally to everyone.  This shows a naivety on his part. 

3.  Perhaps an alternative interpretation of his promise could apply.  I personally feel like I've grown a lot throughout my faith journey.  So maybe his use of the word "protected" could be looked at in a different way.  I feel much more free to think for myself and to consider all sources of information. Not sure this is a protection in the same way he's looking at it, but I feel like I'm protected against dogma because I'm a much better critical thinker.  

[bluebell]

I've found that if people have faith in the promises of apostles (that they have the authority to bestow such promises in the name of God), that God honors them.  In other words, if someone truly wanted to bolster and protect their testimony and they had faith that Rasband's promise on their behalf would be fulfilled if they did their part, God will do so.

[stemelbow]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

I've found that if people have faith in the promises of apostles (that they have the authority to bestow such promises in the name of God), that God honors them.  In other words, if someone truly wanted to bolster and protect their testimony and they had faith that Rasband's promise on their behalf would be fulfilled if they did their part, God will do so.

I'm curious how you know whom God honors?  How do you know the heart of many other people to the point of knowing if they have faith in the promises of apostles?  Or in another way, you wouldn't seem to know if there's been a person who has faithfully lived the gospel and yet did not have his/her testimony protected.  We can't even really know if a person who claims to live faithfully really lives faithfully, though.  I think that's why we often like to tag those who do lose faith and leave as those who were not faithful. 

[ksfisher]

54 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Elder Rasband made some promises during his talk on Sunday. He essentially said that if a person faithfully reads the Book of Mormon and keeps their covenants their testimony will be protected.

I have a couple of questions:

1- Do prophets and apostles have the right to make these kinds of promises? Do they have power to keep their promises or do they have the right to promise things for God?

2- How should I view an apostle who makes a "promise" that in my experience isn't valid? Should I give him a pass for good intentions even though he is promising something to people I know doesn't hold up? (I "know" because I was faithfully living the gospel, serving faithfully, attending the temple, studying the scriptures, saying prayers etc etc)

3- Should I dismiss his promise as empty rhetoric of a man or empty rhetoric of a prophet?

 

 

Your summary of Elder Rasband's quote, and the quote you have provided do not match.

Your summary says: read Book of Mormon and keep covenants and your testimony will be protected.

Your quote says: if you want to bolster your testimony then faithfully live the gospel of Jesus Christ, abide by it's teachings; your testimony will grow and be protected.

1) Apostles hold priesthood keys, the keys of the kingdom.  They do have the right to make promises in the name of Jesus Christ.  The power to keep these promies comes through the Spirit to those who have faith.

2) These promises are only valid in the lives of those who fulfill the conditions of the promise.  ain this case living the gospel of Jesus Christ and abiding by it's trachings.  

3) I would not be quick to dismiss anything that was said by one of the Lord's apostles.  He chose them, he hears their words.

Edited October 3, 2016 by ksfisher

[bluebell]

20 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I'm curious how you know whom God honors?  How do you know the heart of many other people to the point of knowing if they have faith in the promises of apostles?  Or in another way, you wouldn't seem to know if there's been a person who has faithfully lived the gospel and yet did not have his/her testimony protected.  We can't even really know if a person who claims to live faithfully really lives faithfully, though.  I think that's why we often like to tag those who do lose faith and leave as those who were not faithful. 

If this was all about proving who was right, or knowing why someone does something, etc. then you would be right.  There is no way to prove any of that or to know what is in another's heart so Rasband's promises fail if that is how we would measure them.

But I doubt that Rasband said what he said because he's interested in proving anything to outside observers.  It's all about the individual person, and they'll know, which is all that matters.

As for how I know whom God honors--that is nothing that I can prove either.  It comes from my experiences and other experiences that I have read and heard.

[stemelbow]

16 minutes ago, bluebell said:

If this was all about proving who was right, or knowing why someone does something, etc. then you would be right.  There is no way to prove any of that or to know what is in another's heart so Rasband's promises fail if that is how we would measure them.

But I doubt that Rasband said what he said because he's interested in proving anything to outside observers.  It's all about the individual person, and they'll know, which is all that matters.

As for how I know whom God honors--that is nothing that I can prove either.  It comes from my experiences and other experiences that I have read and heard.

I'm not disagreeing with this.  The problem is, we don't really know.  I'm not sure how the promises work.  As it is we'll all falter in some way regarding our faithfulness anyway.  We just try. 

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, stemelbow said:

I'm not disagreeing with this.  The problem is, we don't really know.  I'm not sure how the promises work.  As it is we'll all falter in some way regarding our faithfulness anyway.  We just try. 

That's what faithfulness is-trying.  Faithfulness is following Christ, even if it's imperfectly.  It's being loyal to Him, even if it's imperfectly.  It's hungering and thirsting after righteousness (which only happens when you want it but don't have it yet).

We can do all of those things and still falter in some ways while we are doing them and still be faithful. 

[stemelbow]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

That's what faithfulness is-trying.  Faithfulness is following Christ, even if it's imperfectly.  It's being loyal to Him, even if it's imperfectly.  It's hungering and thirsting after righteousness (which only happens when you want it but don't have it yet).

We can do all of those things and still falter in some ways while we are doing them and still be faithful. 

Ok.  So if you try to keep the faith you are now promised you'll keep it.  Your testimony won't be lost.  Then are we to assume all who have lost their testimony didn't try?  If so, that seems harsh and perhaps unfair.  If not, then the promise loses meaning, no? 

[HappyJackWagon]

54 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Your summary of Elder Rasband's quote, and the quote you have provided do not match.

Your summary says: read Book of Mormon and keep covenants and your testimony will be protected.

Your quote says: if you want to bolster your testimony then faithfully live the gospel of Jesus Christ, abide by it's teachings; your testimony will grow and be protected.

1) Apostles hold priesthood keys, the keys of the kingdom.  They do have the right to make promises in the name of Jesus Christ.  The power to keep these promies comes through the Spirit to those who have faith.

2) These promises are only valid in the lives of those who fulfill the conditions of the promise.  ain this case living the gospel of Jesus Christ and abiding by it's trachings.  

3) I would not be quick to dismiss anything that was said by one of the Lord's apostles.  He chose them, he hears their words.

What's your point? My statement is as I remember the talk and the quote is just a small piece (the only excerpt that is currently available). I don't see much of a distinction between my summary and the one quote I could find.

1- so if the promises don't come true, should I blame God or Elder Rasband? Does a bishop or SP have the right to similarly make promises for God or is that power restricted to apostles and prophets?

Similar promises have been made in the past. One speaker specifically repeated a promise of a past apostle that if a mother reads the BoM to her children every day, none will leave the church. My mother has often stated a similar promise she received. While no one has officially left the church, it's not working so well in our family despite scripture study every morning growing up.

2- Did you read my post? How do you explain people who are living the gospel faithfully, studying faithfully, and keeping the conditions of the promise, yet still lose their testimony? Are you claiming that doesn't happen?

3- "He hears their words". So did He do a face palm or is He planning to uphold the promises of a man?

[HappyJackWagon]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I've found that if people have faith in the promises of apostles (that they have the authority to bestow such promises in the name of God), that God honors them.  In other words, if someone truly wanted to bolster and protect their testimony and they had faith that Rasband's promise on their behalf would be fulfilled if they did their part, God will do so.

Same question I asked KSFisher: How do you explain people who lose their testimonies but have been faithful? Rasband isn't the first to make this kind of promise. Are the faithful people who lose their testimonies not exhibiting enough faith in the promise of the apostle? I've heard so many promises made by leaders that I no longer put any faith in them. They're words of men. But I used to believe and have faith until it became clear the promise was not kept in my life despite faith and faithfulness. I know MANY other people like me. I'm not unique. Unkept promises do nothing other than weaken testimonies.

[ksfisher]

12 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

What's your point? My statement is as I remember the talk and the quote is just a small piece (the only excerpt that is currently available). I don't see much of a distinction between my summary and the one quote I could find.

 

The point is, I guess, is that if we're going to have a discussion about a quote form Elder Rasband let's actually use the quote by Elder Rasband.  Wouldn't you expect the same if we were having a discussion about something you said?

[Kenngo1969]

I suppose you're right, in a sense.  If I doubted that anyone on the earth has authority to speak for God, I would respond in much the same way you, Tacenda, hope_for_things, and stemelbow have to someone purporting to do so.  Elder Rasband hasn't said anything new, though.  Christ said essentially the same thing: "If any man will do His will, he will know of the doctrine: whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself" (John 7:17). On occasion, I have made what some (indeed, what many, perhaps) would consider to be rather audacious (if contingent) promises to people.

In many cases, I haven't known whether those promises actually have been fulfilled. What I do know is that I wasn't the one making those promises: I was simply a conduit, an instrument.  Did they actually get Specific Blessing [Y] for doing Specific Thing [X]?  I dunno. Sometimes, all I can say is, "Well, God and Santa Claus are different." Were they any worse off, even if they didn't happen (or haven't yet happened) to get Blessing [Y] even after doing Thing [X]?  Is Thing [X] a "bad" thing?  Nope.  

Taking offense at Elder Rasband's statement strikes me as roughly the equivalent of worrying, "What if it's all simply a fraud?" Yeah, ergo, what?  Even if it's all a fraud, I did a lot of good in the name of that fraud: Loved my neighbor, tried to love myself and to love my enemy, tried to reach out and succor people according to their spiritual and temporal needs and wants, tried to be a shepherd, tried to look after the sheep, tried my best to discern what I thought God wanted me to to and then tried my best to do it, and so on, ad infinitum.  

Conversely, while your mileage probably varies, one could, instead say, "I'm not a sucker!  I don't want to be taken in!  I'm not gonna fall for something just because somebody claims authority to make an audacious promise I don't think he has any right to make!"  OK.  As Dr. Phil says (he may be something of a quack, if not a publicity hound, but that doesn't mean he isn't absolutely right here), "How's that workin' for ya?"  Mother Theresa has a lot of those same doubts, but she didn't let them stop her from doing an enormous amount of good in the world.  If the worst thing someone can say about me is that I'm a sucker who fell for a fraud, I'll take that.

Edited October 3, 2016 by Kenngo1969

[HappyJackWagon]

2 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Taking offense at Elder Rasband's statement strikes me as roughly the equivalent of worrying, "What if it's all simply a fraud?" Yeah, ergo, what?  Even if it's all a fraud, I did a lot of good in the name of that fraud: Loved my neighbor, tried to love myself and to love my enemy, tried to reach out and succor people according to their spiritual and temporal needs and wants, tried to be a shepherd, tried to look after the sheep, tried my best to discern what I thought God wanted me to to and then tried my best to do it, and so on, ad infinitum.  

 

Actually, no. I view the practice of making promises on behalf of God to be akin to taking His name in vain. Rasband seems to be claiming the authority to make promises that God will keep. And when I see that those promises aren't universally kept I either need to blame God for breaking the promise or I must conclude that it's not God's fault, but rather the person who made a promise on His behalf.

When I consider promises like the one Rasband made, and I can't see that those promises have been kept in my life, I have to conclude that the fruit of the promise is not good. So it's either Rasband or God. Who should I blame? If I can't trust Rasband because he has made promises that haven't been kept then it becomes harder to trust Rasband in other areas as well.

I'm reminded of this quote by BH Roberts-

Quote

It is well nigh as dangerous to claim too much for the inspiration of God in the affairs of men as it is to claim too little. By the first men are led into superstition, and into blasphemously accrediting their own imperfect actions, their blunders, and possibly even their sins to God; and by the second they are apt to altogether eliminate the influence of God from human affairs. I pause in doubt as to which extreme would be the worse.” — B. H. Roberts, A Defense of the Faith and the Saints(Provo: Maasai, 2002), p. 346

I choose to blame the imperfect actions and words and promises of men on those men instead of attributing the errors to God.

[ksfisher]

17 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

 

1- so if the promises don't come true, should I blame God or Elder Rasband? Does a bishop or SP have the right to similarly make promises for God or is that power restricted to apostles and prophets?

 

Bishops and stake presidents can make similar promises within their stewardship.

[hope_for_things]

9 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I suppose you're right, in a sense.  If I doubted that anyone on the earth has authority to speak for God, I would respond in much the same way you, Tacenda, hope_for_things, and stemelbow have to someone purporting to do so.  Elder Rasband hasn't said anything new, though.  Christ said essentially the same thing: "If any man will do His will, he will know of the doctrine: whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself" (John 7:17). On occasion, I have made what some (indeed, what many, perhaps) would consider to be rather audacious (if contingent) promises to people.

In many cases, I haven't known whether those promises actually have been fulfilled. What I do know is that I wasn't the one making those promises: I was simply a conduit, an instrument.  Did they actually get Specific Blessing [Y] for doing Specific Thing [X]?  I dunno. Sometimes, all I can say is, "Well, God and Santa Claus are different." Were they any worse off, even if they didn't happen (or haven't yet happened) to get Blessing [Y] even after doing Thing [X]?  Is Thing [X] a "bad" thing?  Nope.  

Taking offense at Elder Rasband's statement strikes me as roughly the equivalent of worrying, "What if it's all simply a fraud?" Yeah, ergo, what?  Even if it's all a fraud, I did a lot of good in the name of that fraud: Loved my neighbor, tried to love myself and to love my enemy, tried to reach out and succor people according to their spiritual and temporal needs and wants, tried to be a shepherd, tried to look after the sheep, tried my best to discern what I thought God wanted me to to and then tried my best to do it, and so on, ad infinitum.  

Conversely, while your mileage probably varies, one could, instead say, "I'm not a sucker!  I don't want to be taken in!  I'm not gonna fall for something just because somebody claims authority to make an audacious promise I don't think he has any right to make!"  OK.  As Dr. Phil says (he may be something of a quack, if not a publicity hound, but that doesn't mean he isn't absolutely right here), "How's that workin' for ya?"  Mother Theresa has a lot of those same doubts, but she didn't let them stop her from doing an enormous amount of good in the world.  If the worst thing someone can say about me is that I'm a sucker who fell for a fraud, I'll take that.

Thanks for your thoughts.  I've been thinking about things I've said in the past while giving priesthood blessings, things that at the time I felt inspired to say.  First let me say that I have said some things that at the time I felt very inspired to say, and I stand by that feeling of inspiration.  I don't know where those thoughts came from, whether God or somewhere deep in my mind, or some cosmic connection between myself and someone else.  I have no words to explain how or why I felt the way I did.  

So in this context, I'm thinking Elder Rasband made his comments, and I don't fault him for it, I think its something that has been ingrained and taught in our culture.  I think it goes back to Joseph Smith and the early culture of the church influenced by 19th century mysticism.  

Today, I have to say that I look at these experiences much differently.  I am leery of this kind of inspiration, primarily because I've started to learn about scientific studies that have been conducted on how the human brain works, and how we are biased to certain things, and how our emotions are influenced in certain situations.  So I still try to listen to my instincts but I don't automatically assume these feelings are inspiration from God, instead I start to ask questions about why I'm feeling the way I do about something, and I try to use this as a catalyst for more well rounded decision making.  

 

[CV75]

2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Elder Rasband made some promises during his talk on Sunday. He essentially said that if a person faithfully reads the Book of Mormon and keeps their covenants their testimony will be protected.

I have a couple of questions:

1- Do prophets and apostles have the right to make these kinds of promises? Do they have power to keep their promises or do they have the right to promise things for God?

2- How should I view an apostle who makes a "promise" that in my experience isn't valid? Should I give him a pass for good intentions even though he is promising something to people I know doesn't hold up? (I "know" because I was faithfully living the gospel, serving faithfully, attending the temple, studying the scriptures, saying prayers etc etc)

3- Should I dismiss his promise as empty rhetoric of a man or empty rhetoric of a prophet?

1- Of course they do. But is there a difference between making you a promise and giving you a promise? I might say God made the promise and anyone may pass it along.

2- Don't judge him personally and with the courage of your convictions, don't let it bother you.

3- I would only invite you not to

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

Ok.  So if you try to keep the faith you are now promised you'll keep it.  Your testimony won't be lost.  Then are we to assume all who have lost their testimony didn't try?  If so, that seems harsh and perhaps unfair.  If not, then the promise loses meaning, no? 

Rasband is basically just repeating the promise in Helaman 5:12.  Those who's foundation is the Savior, cannot lose that foundation as long as they continue to build on it.  And of course, they must endure in that until the end of their lives.

[bluebell]

47 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Same question I asked KSFisher: How do you explain people who lose their testimonies but have been faithful? Rasband isn't the first to make this kind of promise. Are the faithful people who lose their testimonies not exhibiting enough faith in the promise of the apostle? I've heard so many promises made by leaders that I no longer put any faith in them. They're words of men. But I used to believe and have faith until it became clear the promise was not kept in my life despite faith and faithfulness. I know MANY other people like me. I'm not unique. Unkept promises do nothing other than weaken testimonies.

I don't.  There is no way for me to explain the events of other people's lives.  As Stemelbow has said, there is no way for me to know the hearts of other people so i spend zero time trying.  If you have no faith in the promise, then of course there will be no fulfillment of it.  I'm sincerely sorry that you have lost faith in the prophet and apostles, i'm sure that makes it very difficult to be a member of the LDS church with any level of confidence in it has being lead by Christ, but that doesn't impact other people's ability to see the fulfillment of an apostle's promise to them.

God's promises, given thru HIs prophets, are kept.

[stemelbow]

6 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Rasband is basically just repeating the promise in Helaman 5:12.  Those who's foundation is the Savior, cannot lose that foundation as long as they continue to build on it.  And of course, they must endure in that until the end of their lives.

I get that.  But my questions and concerns go unaddressed. 

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I get that.  But my questions and concerns go unaddressed. 

No one else can answer those questions for you.  You've read the scriptures and you've heard the promises.  You have to decide what you believe about them.  My answer to them doesn't matter.

[ERayR]

3 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Elder Rasband made some promises during his talk on Sunday. He essentially said that if a person faithfully reads the Book of Mormon and keeps their covenants their testimony will be protected.

I have a couple of questions:

1- Do prophets and apostles have the right to make these kinds of promises? Do they have power to keep their promises or do they have the right to promise things for God?

2- How should I view an apostle who makes a "promise" that in my experience isn't valid? Should I give him a pass for good intentions even though he is promising something to people I know doesn't hold up? (I "know" because I was faithfully living the gospel, serving faithfully, attending the temple, studying the scriptures, saying prayers etc etc)

3- Should I dismiss his promise as empty rhetoric of a man or empty rhetoric of a prophet?

 

 

1 - Yes

2 - As an apostle whose own experience validates his promise.  You might try a reevaluation of your experiences. The tone of your statement in (3) doesn't square up with your statement in (2), for me.

3 - No.  See 2.