A more hopeful Mormon LGBT conversation

[kllindley]

This article was a nice contrast to what I usually read on the subject these days:

http://ldslights.org/nsthrive/

 

Quote

Two truths of the restored gospel have become very meaningful to me. The first comes from father Lehi as he taught his family about the Plan of Salvation.

“[…] Men are, that they might have joy.” (2 Nephi 2:25)

The second comes from modern-day prophet Howard W. Hunter.

“Christ’s way is not only the right way, but ultimately the only way to hope and joy.” (Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Howard W. Hunter)

Consider these statements in the context of your life’s purpose. God, our loving Heavenly Father, created and placed us on Earth to live joyfully! He sent His beloved Son, Jesus Christ, to teach us by word and example the only way to hope and joy. God knew we would make mistakes along the way, so He allowed His perfect, sinless child to atone for us so that we might grow through repentance. It’s a beautiful plan, isn’t it!

Quote

If that’s the case, why does life sometimes feel anything but joyous? Throughout my life I have observed many friends and loved ones struggling through bitter trials and difficulties. I’ve observed voices promising joy and happiness outside of the gospel path. These voices can be persuasive and compelling.

Within the context of our community – men and women seeking to navigate sexual orientation or gender identity with faith in the restored gospel – I’ve heard voices calling to us that sound something like this:

“The leadership of the LDS Church doesn’t understand you. You will never find happiness there. Why do you stay?”

“If God made you this way, why would He be opposed to you choosing what feels natural?”

“You are not being true or authentic to yourself. Accept who you are and live accordingly. Until you do, you will be miserable.”

These are powerful voices that seem to have broadly permeated our societies, yet just last General Conference we received the following reassurance:

“If we do the best we can to live the gospel, then tomorrow—and every other day—is ultimately going to be magnificent, even if we don’t always recognize it as such. Why? Because our Heavenly Father wants it to be! He wants to bless us. A rewarding, abundant, and eternal life is the very object of His merciful plan for His children!” (“Tomorrow the Lord Will Do Wonders Among You”, Jeffrey R. Holland, April 2016

Quote

So how then do we find this promised joy? How can we truly thrive instead of just struggling to get by? First, we must believe that it is possible. That is the mission of North Star – “to empower individuals and families […] to authentically and joyfully live the gospel of Jesus Christ and keep sacred covenants.” We are a community of believing Latter-day Saints bound together with this great hope – that the gospel of Jesus Christ will bring us incomprehensible joy – now and in the eternities.

To assist you in this endeavor, I announced at our recent conference the creation of a new North Star initiative called Project THRIVE. This project will feature the creation of a gospel principle-based framework designed to specifically address the common challenges and pitfalls regularly experienced by men and women navigating the complexities of sexual orientation and/or gender identity and their LDS faith. The framework will highlight key gospel principles that have helped members of the North Star community live authentically, find peace, and make and keep covenants. Individuals will be encouraged to apply these principles in a personal, unique way under the guidance of personal revelation from God. We plan to create resources for each demographic starting with men who experience same-sex attraction or identify as gay.

 

[theplains]

I can understand the belief of some that they are born with LGBT tendencies so they don't 
consider this as a sinful lifestyle.  Is this based on some scientific evidence that the 
LDS Church has verified or produced?  If science one day comes out and says that it has 
determined that a gene causes a person to be a thief or a drunkard, should we refrain from 
expecting the gospel of Christ to lead these people to change their lifestyle?

Thanks,
Jim

[Robert F. Smith]

23 minutes ago, theplains said:

I can understand the belief of some that they are born with LGBT tendencies so they don't 
consider this as a sinful lifestyle.  Is this based on some scientific evidence that the 
LDS Church has verified or produced?  If science one day comes out and says that it has 
determined that a gene causes a person to be a thief or a drunkard, should we refrain from 
expecting the gospel of Christ to lead these people to change their lifestyle?

Thanks,
Jim

The Gospel is designed to appeal to people with any sort of challenge, Jim, and all people have challenges.  Some are a result of human failings (ourselves or those around us), while others are genetic or formed in utero.  Take, for example, the blind man who was born that way:  Jesus made it plain that he was not blind because of any sin by his parents (Jn 9).  The Gospel doesn't necessarily remove any difficulties we encounter.  It  only helps us cope, and holds the promise of something much better in the next life.

Edited July 25, 2016 by Robert F. Smith

[theplains]

1 minute ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Some are a result of human failings (ourselves or those around us), while others are genetic or formed in utero.  Take, for example, the blind man who was born that way:  Jesus made it plain that he was not blind because of any sin by his parents.  The Gospel doesn't necessarily remove any difficulties we encounter.  It  only helps us cope, and holds the promise of something much better in the next life.

What sinful actions are not really sinful to God but rather the result of genetics?

Jim

[Robert F. Smith]

12 minutes ago, theplains said:

What sinful actions are not really sinful to God but rather the result of genetics?

Jim

I said nothing of sin, but of challenges -- which all of us face.  Mormons believe that those challenges are a good thing, and that they build character.  Do you concur?  Jesus tells us that neither the blind man nor his parents sinned that he was born blind.  Maybe you didn't get that message, Jim.  Read John 9 again.  Do you understand the principle?  Do you reject it?

[Guest]

To the OP, all of these have been discussed without end. The truth is, for those who are n love with others of the same sex, and I mean "in love", to ask them to stop loving them to have "joy" is a very hard sale. For many it is not just about same sex attraction, they are in love and are loved. Maybe early on they could choose to live as others in different Faiths, but once married to someone they love, it would mean choosing not for themselves but for their spouses, by rejecting the promises they made to that person. Also there are many in every faith who do choose to follow scriptural teachings, and live happy lives, dispite the world telling them to do otherwise. Also, was your OP all cut and paste? I ask because I would like to read your thoughts on the issue. 

Edited July 26, 2016 by Pa Pa

[carbon dioxide]

6 hours ago, theplains said:

I can understand the belief of some that they are born with LGBT tendencies so they don't 
consider this as a sinful lifestyle.  Is this based on some scientific evidence that the 
LDS Church has verified or produced?  If science one day comes out and says that it has 
determined that a gene causes a person to be a thief or a drunkard, should we refrain from 
expecting the gospel of Christ to lead these people to change their lifestyle?

Thanks,
Jim

The natural man is an enemy to God and will always be.  All types of sin plays off our natural tendencies.  When people say that homosexuality is natural and part of nature we can say fine.  It is part of nature but so what.  God expects us to put off what comes natural to use and be submissive to God.  As Abraham 3 says, we were put here to see if we would do all the things that God commands us.  We were not put here to maximize our natural tendencies and see how we could develop our character flaws to their full potential.  The world tells us to celebrate who we are.  God tells us to change who we are to what he wants us to become.

[mfbukowski]

Sexual love can be a false god which we worship

That is certainly the case with pornography and any practice which reduces humans to objects

To me that raises interesting questions about at what point we are worshiping an object as opposed to loving someone "Other" than ourselves as opposed to a mirror image of ourselves.  What is there to gain by sexual "knowledge" of ourselves?   What do we learn about the Other?  The principle of opposition in all things teaches us a dialectic- that truth is found by "proving contraries".  Where there is no dialectic, there is no "knowledge".  There is no figure without a background, no words without silence, no symbols without first an empty page.  There is no knowledge without contrast within a dialectic

How do we learn to know ( hebrew: "yada")  the other half of humanity by "knowing" an image of ourselves?

[california boy]

I am so sick of being compared to a thief a drunkard a drug addict a whatever.  

Being gay is Like being straight. Do we compare anyone having sex that is straight a thief, drinkard  or as Scott said only yesterday a cocaine addict? Do we say their love is like being addicted to porn?

 I am so getting tired of the way Mormons look at gays  Who needs the abuse and demeaning attitudes.  Let's have yet another thread about those sinful gays where we can comment on how much better OUR love is. God approves of our love.  God condemns gay love. We need to talk about this again because I feel so much better about my own sins when I can talk about the sins of the gays. Heaven forbid if they actually fall in love like I did. They are just like thieves and drunkards when they do that. I on the other hand are on the road to celestial glory because I love the right kind of person. 

 

End of rant. Continue on with your discussion on how sinful and discussing gays are. Our favorite topic on this board

[CV75]

13 hours ago, theplains said:

I can understand the belief of some that they are born with LGBT tendencies so they don't 
consider this as a sinful lifestyle.  Is this based on some scientific evidence that the 
LDS Church has verified or produced?  If science one day comes out and says that it has 
determined that a gene causes a person to be a thief or a drunkard, should we refrain from 
expecting the gospel of Christ to lead these people to change their lifestyle?

Thanks,
Jim

It was discovered a long time ago that genes do not operate in isolation. We need to consider epigenetics of every kind, including the spiritual kind for which there is no science that I can think of. The beauty of the Gospel that all that needs to be changed is our hearts, our willingness and intent to love the Lord and follow Him in patience and faith.

Genes can affect mortal accountability, but who can really affirm in careful analysis and ministry that they are not accountable for choosing or changing their lifestyle choices?

[kllindley]

12 hours ago, Pa Pa said:

To the OP, all of these have been discussed without end. The truth is, for those who are n love with others of the same sex, and I mean "in love", to ask them to stop loving them to have "joy" is a very hard sell. For many it is not just about same sex attraction, they are in love and are loved. Maybe early on they could choose to live as others in different Faiths, but one married to someone they love, it would mean choosing not for themselves but for their spouses, by rejecting the promises they made to that person. Also there are many in every faith who do choose to follow scriptural teachings, and live happy lives, dispite the world telling them to do otherwise. Also, was your OP all cut and paste? I ask because I would like to read your thoughts on the issue. 

Sorry, yes; the OP was all quoted from the announcement.  I would be happy to share some thoughts on the subject. I hope it isn't insulting or rude to share thoughts that I've written and shared before.  

http://reachingupward.blogspot.com/2011/09/francis-websters-bigger-story.html

“I ask you to stop this criticism. You are discussing a matter you know nothing about. Cold historic facts mean nothing here for they give no proper interpretation of the questions involved. Mistakes in handling homosexuality? Yes. Mistakes in Church policy and Church discipline? Probably. Mistake to support prop 8? Maybe. But I was affected by those choices and my wife was also. We sufered beyond anything you can imagine and many died not only spiritually but literally as well. Many lost families, friends, faith. Some lost hope. But I will never complain about that. I will never leave my faith, because I came through my experiences with the absolute knowledge that God lives for I became acquainted with him my our extremities.

I have risen from bed when I was so weak and weary from depression and hopelessness, that I could hardly put one foot ahead of the other. I have looked ahead to tomorrow and I have said I can go only that far and there I must give up for I cannot endure this suffering. I have gone on to that day and when I reached it I found just enough strength to try for the next. I have looked many times to see who was keeping me alive and I saw and felt many people. I knew then that the Angels of God were there, both mortal and immortal.

Am I sorry that I chose to experience homosexual attractions within the context of the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ? No. The price I have paid to become acquainted with God was a privilege to pay and I am thankful that I was privileged to experience homosexuality and the LDS Church in the time and culture where I did.”

You may recognize the framework of that quote from a story about the handcart companies. Wendy Ulrich explained why that quote is so powerful "Francis Webster did more that day than quiet a heated Sunday school class. He opened up a story. A story big enough to hold both leaders who make mistakes, and a God who can turn all things to our good. In fact he opened up story for all of us. A story that includes the possibility that we too may come to know God in our extremities. They find the hand of angels in our most difficult hours. They come to see the price we pay for mortality as a privilege, for it can open our blind eyes to see the face of God.

For instance, Webster’s story is one of many stories however, among the handcart pioneers. Some of those pioneers may not have felt the hand of angels or come to know God in a tangible way. Some of them may have simply finished the track, moved on with their lives. Some may have simply given up, some may have never made much sense out of what happened, and others may never have really questioned at all.

But for Francis Webster the bigger story was one of unseen angels, and acquaintance with God. For others the biggest story may be one of personal stamina, and extraordinary luck, for others the bigger story may be one of the power of friendship and human compassion. It may have taken 40 years for some to learn to see the hand of God in some redemptive way in that experience, or that clear vision may not come until the dawning of a much brighter day. But the stories we create of our experience, stories shaped by our past but invested with our creativity and hope. These are what in turn shape our future."
 

http://reachingupward.blogspot.com/2011/01/rambling-about-kinsey.html

Kinsey's scale is definitely a big step up from the simple gay-straight-bi classification. I know one of my biggest challenges is falling into all or nothing thinking and failing to recognize the subtleties of human experience (my own as well as others'). 

Still I think that the Kinsey scale is limited in its usefulness. It creates an artificial continuum of heterosexual to homosexual. I do like the way you've written out the descriptions as they focus more on overt behaviors than on subjective judgments. 

One of the reasons I dislike Kinsey's scale is because it assumes that heterosexuality and homosexuality are opposite poles of a single spectrum. My personal experience and judging from the vast majority of men that I have interacted with, is that sexuality is much more like an infinite Stereo equalizer. In an equalizer, each slider controls the volume of a set range of frequencies. Those sliders can be moved independently and only work in relation to the overall volume control. Most equalizers use fairly large ranges and have relatively few sliders. However, it is possible to use much more restricted ranges and have many more sliders. It is also possible to give the sliders a greater ability to increase or decrease the volume of certain ranges.

I believe sexual, (and romantic, physical, and emotional) attractions are largely learned desires. The process of learning those attractions is largely influenced by the genetic and physical composition of the brain, spiritual attributes brought from premortality, and the environment/experiences of the individual. Those attractions can be influenced by very broad ranges or very narrow and specific ranges(i.e. I'm attracted to everything that's human; I'm only attracted to men; My attraction to men is very high, but there is a subtle attraction to women; I'm only attracted to women; I'm only attracted to blonds; I'm attracted to lots of men, but as far as women go I'm only attracted to my wife and Holly Marie Combs.) There are an infinite number of specific attractions that can be learned. For example, I would argue that Polynesian men are not born with a gene that makes them attracted to large women rather than skinny women. Rather this attraction is more the product of their culture. Also consider the learned boundary-for most people-of not being sexually attracted to one's siblings. Despite arguments to the contrary, there really isn't sufficient evidence to suppose that there is an anti-family gene. That's much more of a cultural (a.k.a. learned) boundary.

http://reachingupward.blogspot.com/2010/12/i-originally-wrote-this-letter-with.html

A segment about same-gender attraction and Mormons, aired on ABC's Nightline last night. Another piece was done on Fox 13 in Utah. As, I watched both and reflected on them, I've had a number of feelings come to me. I've felt a need to write some of my feelings down and share them with my family.

The first is a gratitude for the Gospel of Jesus Christ, taught in its fullness through the Restored Church. I've lived through some very difficult circumstances. These trials and challenges have had an enormous impact on who I am today. I don't know that my life has been uniquely challenging. I can only speak about my own experiences and how I perceived them. I know that the the mortal afflictions I've experienced, have had the power to bring me closer to Christ. Through them I've learned what it means to rely wholly on the merits of Him who is mighty to save. I've been taught how to be humble; I've grown in charity, towards myself and my fellow men.

I feel a need to bear testimony that Heavenly Father does love each of us as his children. He is anxiously waiting for us to turn to Him, to open our hearts to His power and his love. I know that the Atonement of Jesus Christ has the power to save us from ourselves. It allows us to grow and become more like our Father. I know that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is God's true and living church--that the men called as leaders are called by God.

Over the last three years, I have worked through issues relating to my feelings of same-gender attraction. It has been quite a journey! I am grateful that Heavenly Father has guided that journey (as much as I've allowed Him to). A critical part of my healing has been counseling with an inspired, well-trained therapist. Journey into Manhood, the weekend that is featured in the Nightline segment, also had a profound impact on me. These are some of the means God used to heal me. I know that if I had trusted in either of these resources as my sole support, they would have failed. But with a foundation of Faith in Christ, a testimony of the plan of salvation, and an open heart and a willing mind, I was able to grow, overcome the obstacles of mortality, and become more like Heavenly Father.

Like Lehi, one of my greatest desires since tasting of the peace and joy that are available through the Atonement of Jesus Christ has been to help others find that fruit. It is natural for me to wish, like Alma, that I would accomplish that through great and miraculous means--like the voice of an angel. But I'm learning that the Lord really does work by small and simple things. Like me bearing testimony to my family members and friends who at some point may in turn be in a position to help someone else.

There is so much debate in the world about same-gender attraction. Far too often the issue becomes polarized, which leaves many conflicted, confused, and lost. I am grateful for living prophets who have testified of the truth of the plan of salvation and make very clear what is right and wrong. I am grateful that they speak of foundational principles: faith, repentance, prayer, scripture reading, fasting. These principles apply to everyone and are essential to growth and progress. . I am also grateful for Apostles who teach that through these means, we are able to receive guidance through the Holy Ghost that will be individualized and tailored to our circumstances. Sometimes that guidance will come through a variety of different means, such as good books, inspired priesthood leaders, trained professionals. Which tools we use and how we apply the things we hear or read is done as directed by the Spirit.

But sometimes, members of the Church (especially those with challenges like same-gender attraction) can become convinced that these foundational steps are the entire process. Many may be like I was, and strive diligently to do everything they are taught. But if those things are done without a broken heart, without humility and a true willingness to learn, even true principles like fasting and prayer will not provide resolution to our challenges. This can be the cause of a great dilemma. Individuals may feel that they have tried to live the gospel, to do all the things they should do, and still are not happy. Most are sincere in their desperation. The conflict between what they believe to be true and what they are experiencing is very intense. Unfortunately, many find relief from that conflict by abandoning their beliefs and surrendering to the natural man. Though they cannot ever find happiness in sin, they can experience a reduction of the conflict, which reinforces their choice.

I believe that it is part of our covenant to bear one anothers burdens to help those who may struggle with same-gender attraction. The issue carries a very negative stigma with it. This feeling of shame can discourage those who need help and support from reaching out. We as a church are making great progress in combating this problem of ignorance and judgment. The General Authorities are making an effort to increase awareness and compassion. There is another area where we as members of the church can also make progress. We can be more informed about the issue and about the resources available to those who are struggling. I've come to understand that this is not the duty of the Brethren. Part of that obligation rests on me and others who have personal experience to share our experience and offer our testimonies and our support.

That's why I've typed this incredibly long email. It is my hope that you would feel of my testimony. Maybe what I have shared today won't mean anything to the majority of those who read it. But perhaps one of you knows someone who is affected by same-gender attraction who wants desperately to do what is right and be happy, but may not know how to do that. I'm very open to questions or comments. I am very willing to share more about my experiences if asked.

http://reachingupward.blogspot.com/2010/07/opened-eyes.html

So, I've recently spoken with a young man who has helped me better understand that people differ from each other. I've come to see more clearly that the path which has worked for me--that the Lord has prepared for me--is not the only path for other people. I still believe that true happiness is to be found in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The Plan of Salvation--the Plan of Happiness--is designed to make us happy. I love that. I know that. 

I also know that for some, the Lord's time-line is different. I am not saying that we just give up for this life and do whatever feels good. However, we all need to have an open heart and a willingness to do whatever we are prompted. Having the courage and strength to pursue those promptings faithfully in spite of difficulty. . . That's what we need the Savior for.

--From Remarks at an Area Fireside for LGBT members and their friends, family, and Leaders: 

 “First, people often use the same words to mean different things. Tonight you may hear words such as gay, homosexual, same-gender, or same-sex attraction used in different ways. Please be careful about making judgments based on your own definitions of these words. If necessary, ask for clarification.

Second, tonight, you will likely hear many suggestions and ideas. Some may resonate with you. Others may not. That’s okay. Not all solutions will work for all people. We are all unique individuals in different places in our journeys. Only the Lord can help you know how to apply these suggestions or ideas to your own personal and unique circumstances.

Finally, there may also be times this evening when you are pushed outside of your comfort zone. For many, just showing up here has already done that. One of our greatest challenges as members of the Church is to dispel the shadows of fear and shame that surround this issue. This can only be done by bringing it into the open and exposing it to the light of the Son. The ways we talk about same-gender attraction, the extent to which we are open in our discussions with each other and especially with our youth—This is what is going to determine whether or not those who feel alone and discouraged because of their same-gender attraction will have the courage to reach out for help. Creating an atmosphere of love and acceptance where that can happen, and responding compassionately to the reaching of others is a central part of our covenants to follow Jesus Christ. Please be patient with others and with yourselves as we seek to better understand how we can keep our covenants in regards to this issue.

I recognize that all of us have our own challenges and trials. I know that they are unique to each individual. But I also know that the most effective solution to every one of our trials and challenges is found within the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ. Through the Atonement of our Savior, we can find the promised peace and joy we seek. That happiness can come to us regardless of, and in part, because of our mortal circumstances. It is my prayer that the Spirit of the Lord will be with each of us tonight to help us learn how we can more effectively access the power of the Atonement in our own lives and teach us how we can help others to do the same.

http://reachingupward.blogspot.com/2010/05/peace-joy-and-happiness.html

As I’ve allowed God into my heart and into my mind, I have felt His guidance. He has led me to resolve the issues that interfere with my peace of mind. New things come up. Old things creep back in. But as I turn to Him, I am given solutions to my problems. If I follow those promptings, I find peace of conscience and of mind. When I have that peace, I am able to feel of the happiness that is who I am. It’s my nature. It’s me.

My heart aches for my brothers and sisters who seek to find happiness outside of Father’s plan for us. I love them. I know that they are likely finding reprieve from the conflicts and longings that have caused so much pain and suffering in their lives. I’m not judging them or condemning them. I’m happy if they feel less pain, less despair. But I am sad for them, because I know that the solutions they have chosen will never lead to lasting peace, true happiness, or full joy. Even worse, those solutions have a way of trapping individuals—of binding them with the chains of hell. Still, though, I am comforted in the knowledge that the power of Jesus Christ is greater than the power of the devil. His Atonement is strong enough to free any caught in the snares of the adversary.

I am so grateful for the Atonement. I’m even more grateful that I have learned how to access its infinite power. I know that my own imperfections and shortcomings would prevent me from finding true, lasting happiness if it weren’t for the Savior’s sacrifice. I know that not everyone who tries to keep the commandments finds happiness. I am all too personally and intimately familiar with that feeling. I am, however, also sure beyond any doubt that it is not possible to experience peace of conscience, peace of mind, or true happiness unless we are living in harmony with the commandments and constantly repenting.

I know that it is the Lord’s plan for each of His children to find peace and joy. He is anxiously waiting for us to return to Him—to allow Him to restore our peace of conscience. He is ready and willing to provide us with the solutions we need to restore our peace of mind. He is aching for us to feel the happiness and joy for which He created us.May we each humble ourselves, open our hearts, sincerely seek His guidance, and faithfully follow His counsel. May we be willing to make the changes that He suggests. I testify that as we do, He will bless us with peace and happiness. I know that this is true.

 

 

[kllindley]

15 hours ago, theplains said:

I can understand the belief of some that they are born with LGBT tendencies so they don't 
consider this as a sinful lifestyle.  Is this based on some scientific evidence that the 
LDS Church has verified or produced?  If science one day comes out and says that it has 
determined that a gene causes a person to be a thief or a drunkard, should we refrain from 
expecting the gospel of Christ to lead these people to change their lifestyle?

Thanks,
Jim

Jim,

From this comment, I wonder if you read the post or the full link.  North Star is a group formed by individuals who are committed to living fully the Gospel of Jesus Christ and sustaining the Leaders of the Church.  Many of their stories are found on the Church's official mormonsandgays.org website.  Others can be found at http://ldsvoicesofhope.org/ 

If you did read that this organization fully supports the Doctrines of the Church and is trying to help people live those Doctrines joyfully, it seems like you reject the Church's teaching that experiencing same-sex attractions is not a sin.  I can respect that position, but recognize that it is in opposition to the Brethren.  

[kllindley]

7 hours ago, california boy said:

I am so sick of being compared to a thief a drunkard a drug addict a whatever.  

Being gay is Like being straight. Do we compare anyone having sex that is straight a thief, drinkard  or as Scott said only yesterday a cocaine addict? Do we say their love is like being addicted to porn?

 I am so getting tired of the way Mormons look at gays  Who needs the abuse and demeaning attitudes.  Let's have yet another thread about those sinful gays where we can comment on how much better OUR love is. God approves of our love.  God condemns gay love. We need to talk about this again because I feel so much better about my own sins when I can talk about the sins of the gays. Heaven forbid if they actually fall in love like I did. They are just like thieves and drunkards when they do that. I on the other hand are on the road to celestial glory because I love the right kind of person. 

 

End of rant. Continue on with your discussion on how sinful and discussing gays are. Our favorite topic on this board

I can empathize with your frustration and pain at the comments above and on other threads.  It was certainly not my intention to generate more of those.  In fact, my goal is just the opposite. I still hold out hope that through respectful dialogue, we can change the part of the culture that makes it harder for LGBT members to find happiness (whether they choose to do so within or without the Restored Gospel).  

I can really see both sides of the comparison issue.  On the one hand, I know what it feels like to be assumed to be a child molester after sharing about my sexuality.  I also recognize that the object of comparison is not really as important as the degree of assumed similarity to the comparison.  When I have a child psychologist share insights into parenting based on experiments done with rats and pigeons, I don't get offended because she is trying to say that my kids are rats or pigeons.  I understand that there is a limit to the analogy and that there may be some important similarities which provide improved understanding of child behavior.  

When you say "being gay is like being straight" I understand that as coming from a particular view of sexuality and human nature.  Isn't is possible to remain respectful and loving without adopting that paradigm?  Can individuals who accept the essentialist explanation of sexual orientation accept that from a constructivist perspective, these analogies are not intended to be demeaning or abusive in any way?  Is there a way we could better express our understanding of sexuality and it's role in an individual's mortal and eternal identity without offending?

[Guest]

3 hours ago, kllindley said:

Sorry, yes; the OP was all quoted from the announcement.  I would be happy to share some thoughts on the subject. I hope it isn't insulting or rude to share thoughts that I've written and shared before.  

http://reachingupward.blogspot.com/2011/09/francis-websters-bigger-story.html

“I ask you to stop this criticism. You are discussing a matter you know nothing about. Cold historic facts mean nothing here for they give no proper interpretation of the questions involved. Mistakes in handling homosexuality? Yes. Mistakes in Church policy and Church discipline? Probably. Mistake to support prop 8? Maybe. But I was affected by those choices and my wife was also. We sufered beyond anything you can imagine and many died not only spiritually but literally as well. Many lost families, friends, faith. Some lost hope. But I will never complain about that. I will never leave my faith, because I came through my experiences with the absolute knowledge that God lives for I became acquainted with him my our extremities.

I have risen from bed when I was so weak and weary from depression and hopelessness, that I could hardly put one foot ahead of the other. I have looked ahead to tomorrow and I have said I can go only that far and there I must give up for I cannot endure this suffering. I have gone on to that day and when I reached it I found just enough strength to try for the next. I have looked many times to see who was keeping me alive and I saw and felt many people. I knew then that the Angels of God were there, both mortal and immortal.

Am I sorry that I chose to experience homosexual attractions within the context of the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ? No. The price I have paid to become acquainted with God was a privilege to pay and I am thankful that I was privileged to experience homosexuality and the LDS Church in the time and culture where I did.”

You may recognize the framework of that quote from a story about the handcart companies. Wendy Ulrich explained why that quote is so powerful "Francis Webster did more that day than quiet a heated Sunday school class. He opened up a story. A story big enough to hold both leaders who make mistakes, and a God who can turn all things to our good. In fact he opened up story for all of us. A story that includes the possibility that we too may come to know God in our extremities. They find the hand of angels in our most difficult hours. They come to see the price we pay for mortality as a privilege, for it can open our blind eyes to see the face of God.

For instance, Webster’s story is one of many stories however, among the handcart pioneers. Some of those pioneers may not have felt the hand of angels or come to know God in a tangible way. Some of them may have simply finished the track, moved on with their lives. Some may have simply given up, some may have never made much sense out of what happened, and others may never have really questioned at all.

But for Francis Webster the bigger story was one of unseen angels, and acquaintance with God. For others the biggest story may be one of personal stamina, and extraordinary luck, for others the bigger story may be one of the power of friendship and human compassion. It may have taken 40 years for some to learn to see the hand of God in some redemptive way in that experience, or that clear vision may not come until the dawning of a much brighter day. But the stories we create of our experience, stories shaped by our past but invested with our creativity and hope. These are what in turn shape our future."
 

http://reachingupward.blogspot.com/2011/01/rambling-about-kinsey.html

Kinsey's scale is definitely a big step up from the simple gay-straight-bi classification. I know one of my biggest challenges is falling into all or nothing thinking and failing to recognize the subtleties of human experience (my own as well as others'). 

Still I think that the Kinsey scale is limited in its usefulness. It creates an artificial continuum of heterosexual to homosexual. I do like the way you've written out the descriptions as they focus more on overt behaviors than on subjective judgments. 

One of the reasons I dislike Kinsey's scale is because it assumes that heterosexuality and homosexuality are opposite poles of a single spectrum. My personal experience and judging from the vast majority of men that I have interacted with, is that sexuality is much more like an infinite Stereo equalizer. In an equalizer, each slider controls the volume of a set range of frequencies. Those sliders can be moved independently and only work in relation to the overall volume control. Most equalizers use fairly large ranges and have relatively few sliders. However, it is possible to use much more restricted ranges and have many more sliders. It is also possible to give the sliders a greater ability to increase or decrease the volume of certain ranges.

I believe sexual, (and romantic, physical, and emotional) attractions are largely learned desires. The process of learning those attractions is largely influenced by the genetic and physical composition of the brain, spiritual attributes brought from premortality, and the environment/experiences of the individual. Those attractions can be influenced by very broad ranges or very narrow and specific ranges(i.e. I'm attracted to everything that's human; I'm only attracted to men; My attraction to men is very high, but there is a subtle attraction to women; I'm only attracted to women; I'm only attracted to blonds; I'm attracted to lots of men, but as far as women go I'm only attracted to my wife and Holly Marie Combs.) There are an infinite number of specific attractions that can be learned. For example, I would argue that Polynesian men are not born with a gene that makes them attracted to large women rather than skinny women. Rather this attraction is more the product of their culture. Also consider the learned boundary-for most people-of not being sexually attracted to one's siblings. Despite arguments to the contrary, there really isn't sufficient evidence to suppose that there is an anti-family gene. That's much more of a cultural (a.k.a. learned) boundary.

http://reachingupward.blogspot.com/2010/12/i-originally-wrote-this-letter-with.html

A segment about same-gender attraction and Mormons, aired on ABC's Nightline last night. Another piece was done on Fox 13 in Utah. As, I watched both and reflected on them, I've had a number of feelings come to me. I've felt a need to write some of my feelings down and share them with my family.

The first is a gratitude for the Gospel of Jesus Christ, taught in its fullness through the Restored Church. I've lived through some very difficult circumstances. These trials and challenges have had an enormous impact on who I am today. I don't know that my life has been uniquely challenging. I can only speak about my own experiences and how I perceived them. I know that the the mortal afflictions I've experienced, have had the power to bring me closer to Christ. Through them I've learned what it means to rely wholly on the merits of Him who is mighty to save. I've been taught how to be humble; I've grown in charity, towards myself and my fellow men.

I feel a need to bear testimony that Heavenly Father does love each of us as his children. He is anxiously waiting for us to turn to Him, to open our hearts to His power and his love. I know that the Atonement of Jesus Christ has the power to save us from ourselves. It allows us to grow and become more like our Father. I know that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is God's true and living church--that the men called as leaders are called by God.

Over the last three years, I have worked through issues relating to my feelings of same-gender attraction. It has been quite a journey! I am grateful that Heavenly Father has guided that journey (as much as I've allowed Him to). A critical part of my healing has been counseling with an inspired, well-trained therapist. Journey into Manhood, the weekend that is featured in the Nightline segment, also had a profound impact on me. These are some of the means God used to heal me. I know that if I had trusted in either of these resources as my sole support, they would have failed. But with a foundation of Faith in Christ, a testimony of the plan of salvation, and an open heart and a willing mind, I was able to grow, overcome the obstacles of mortality, and become more like Heavenly Father.

Like Lehi, one of my greatest desires since tasting of the peace and joy that are available through the Atonement of Jesus Christ has been to help others find that fruit. It is natural for me to wish, like Alma, that I would accomplish that through great and miraculous means--like the voice of an angel. But I'm learning that the Lord really does work by small and simple things. Like me bearing testimony to my family members and friends who at some point may in turn be in a position to help someone else.

There is so much debate in the world about same-gender attraction. Far too often the issue becomes polarized, which leaves many conflicted, confused, and lost. I am grateful for living prophets who have testified of the truth of the plan of salvation and make very clear what is right and wrong. I am grateful that they speak of foundational principles: faith, repentance, prayer, scripture reading, fasting. These principles apply to everyone and are essential to growth and progress. . I am also grateful for Apostles who teach that through these means, we are able to receive guidance through the Holy Ghost that will be individualized and tailored to our circumstances. Sometimes that guidance will come through a variety of different means, such as good books, inspired priesthood leaders, trained professionals. Which tools we use and how we apply the things we hear or read is done as directed by the Spirit.

But sometimes, members of the Church (especially those with challenges like same-gender attraction) can become convinced that these foundational steps are the entire process. Many may be like I was, and strive diligently to do everything they are taught. But if those things are done without a broken heart, without humility and a true willingness to learn, even true principles like fasting and prayer will not provide resolution to our challenges. This can be the cause of a great dilemma. Individuals may feel that they have tried to live the gospel, to do all the things they should do, and still are not happy. Most are sincere in their desperation. The conflict between what they believe to be true and what they are experiencing is very intense. Unfortunately, many find relief from that conflict by abandoning their beliefs and surrendering to the natural man. Though they cannot ever find happiness in sin, they can experience a reduction of the conflict, which reinforces their choice.

I believe that it is part of our covenant to bear one anothers burdens to help those who may struggle with same-gender attraction. The issue carries a very negative stigma with it. This feeling of shame can discourage those who need help and support from reaching out. We as a church are making great progress in combating this problem of ignorance and judgment. The General Authorities are making an effort to increase awareness and compassion. There is another area where we as members of the church can also make progress. We can be more informed about the issue and about the resources available to those who are struggling. I've come to understand that this is not the duty of the Brethren. Part of that obligation rests on me and others who have personal experience to share our experience and offer our testimonies and our support.

That's why I've typed this incredibly long email. It is my hope that you would feel of my testimony. Maybe what I have shared today won't mean anything to the majority of those who read it. But perhaps one of you knows someone who is affected by same-gender attraction who wants desperately to do what is right and be happy, but may not know how to do that. I'm very open to questions or comments. I am very willing to share more about my experiences if asked.

http://reachingupward.blogspot.com/2010/07/opened-eyes.html

So, I've recently spoken with a young man who has helped me better understand that people differ from each other. I've come to see more clearly that the path which has worked for me--that the Lord has prepared for me--is not the only path for other people. I still believe that true happiness is to be found in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The Plan of Salvation--the Plan of Happiness--is designed to make us happy. I love that. I know that. 

I also know that for some, the Lord's time-line is different. I am not saying that we just give up for this life and do whatever feels good. However, we all need to have an open heart and a willingness to do whatever we are prompted. Having the courage and strength to pursue those promptings faithfully in spite of difficulty. . . That's what we need the Savior for.

--From Remarks at an Area Fireside for LGBT members and their friends, family, and Leaders: 

 “First, people often use the same words to mean different things. Tonight you may hear words such as gay, homosexual, same-gender, or same-sex attraction used in different ways. Please be careful about making judgments based on your own definitions of these words. If necessary, ask for clarification.

Second, tonight, you will likely hear many suggestions and ideas. Some may resonate with you. Others may not. That’s okay. Not all solutions will work for all people. We are all unique individuals in different places in our journeys. Only the Lord can help you know how to apply these suggestions or ideas to your own personal and unique circumstances.

Finally, there may also be times this evening when you are pushed outside of your comfort zone. For many, just showing up here has already done that. One of our greatest challenges as members of the Church is to dispel the shadows of fear and shame that surround this issue. This can only be done by bringing it into the open and exposing it to the light of the Son. The ways we talk about same-gender attraction, the extent to which we are open in our discussions with each other and especially with our youth—This is what is going to determine whether or not those who feel alone and discouraged because of their same-gender attraction will have the courage to reach out for help. Creating an atmosphere of love and acceptance where that can happen, and responding compassionately to the reaching of others is a central part of our covenants to follow Jesus Christ. Please be patient with others and with yourselves as we seek to better understand how we can keep our covenants in regards to this issue.

I recognize that all of us have our own challenges and trials. I know that they are unique to each individual. But I also know that the most effective solution to every one of our trials and challenges is found within the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ. Through the Atonement of our Savior, we can find the promised peace and joy we seek. That happiness can come to us regardless of, and in part, because of our mortal circumstances. It is my prayer that the Spirit of the Lord will be with each of us tonight to help us learn how we can more effectively access the power of the Atonement in our own lives and teach us how we can help others to do the same.

http://reachingupward.blogspot.com/2010/05/peace-joy-and-happiness.html

As I’ve allowed God into my heart and into my mind, I have felt His guidance. He has led me to resolve the issues that interfere with my peace of mind. New things come up. Old things creep back in. But as I turn to Him, I am given solutions to my problems. If I follow those promptings, I find peace of conscience and of mind. When I have that peace, I am able to feel of the happiness that is who I am. It’s my nature. It’s me.

My heart aches for my brothers and sisters who seek to find happiness outside of Father’s plan for us. I love them. I know that they are likely finding reprieve from the conflicts and longings that have caused so much pain and suffering in their lives. I’m not judging them or condemning them. I’m happy if they feel less pain, less despair. But I am sad for them, because I know that the solutions they have chosen will never lead to lasting peace, true happiness, or full joy. Even worse, those solutions have a way of trapping individuals—of binding them with the chains of hell. Still, though, I am comforted in the knowledge that the power of Jesus Christ is greater than the power of the devil. His Atonement is strong enough to free any caught in the snares of the adversary.

I am so grateful for the Atonement. I’m even more grateful that I have learned how to access its infinite power. I know that my own imperfections and shortcomings would prevent me from finding true, lasting happiness if it weren’t for the Savior’s sacrifice. I know that not everyone who tries to keep the commandments finds happiness. I am all too personally and intimately familiar with that feeling. I am, however, also sure beyond any doubt that it is not possible to experience peace of conscience, peace of mind, or true happiness unless we are living in harmony with the commandments and constantly repenting.

I know that it is the Lord’s plan for each of His children to find peace and joy. He is anxiously waiting for us to return to Him—to allow Him to restore our peace of conscience. He is ready and willing to provide us with the solutions we need to restore our peace of mind. He is aching for us to feel the happiness and joy for which He created us.May we each humble ourselves, open our hearts, sincerely seek His guidance, and faithfully follow His counsel. May we be willing to make the changes that He suggests. I testify that as we do, He will bless us with peace and happiness. I know that this is true.

 

 

Are you suggesting that the area highlighted in yellow is the journal of a pioneer from the Saints while crossing the plains? Also if the other words posted are your own, do you think it important or wise to give the full name of your wife? If so, that is (or should be) unfair to your wife...by most standards. But even if from earlier writings of your own, it still has the feel on just cut and paste methods. Especially since in "your writings" have imbedded links to other writtings or articles. All cut and paste posts require you own comments, this rule is to help gage what posters believe and feel now, it helps,posters know and understand you better. Your call, but we would all like to know you as a poster, by reading who you are unrehurshed. So, here's hoping for that chance for us all to know you better.  

[Buckeye]

2 hours ago, kllindley said:

...

When you say "being gay is like being straight" I understand that as coming from a particular view of sexuality and human nature.  Isn't is possible to remain respectful and loving without adopting that paradigm?  Can individuals who accept the essentialist explanation of sexual orientation accept that from a constructivist perspective, these analogies are not intended to be demeaning or abusive in any way?  Is there a way we could better express our understanding of sexuality and it's role in an individual's mortal and eternal identity without offending?

First, welcome to the board!

As a general rule of dialogue (both on this board and elsewhere), you cannot expect others to act in ways you are not willing to.  So if you're asking someone to consider a different perspective, or drop their paradigm, or consider (really consider) that their views may be wrong, then you have to be willing to do the same. Unfortunately, the number of times that happens is very small. Most often people "dialogue" by asking that the other person open their mind, but without them doing the same. And that just doesn't work. 

To be clear, I'm not suggesting that you're being the hypocrite here. But I would suggest that if you want to credibly ask someone to reconsider a paradigm, that you take the good faith initiative first and demonstrate that behavior by reconsidering yours. 

I've said it before, the good news in all these gay marriage debates is that, because so many gay couples are getting married and raising families, we are quickly amassing a lot of experiential data to know whether such marriages and families are ordained of God. Either the fruit will be good or bad. In time, we will collectively be able to say with knowledge whether gay marriage is sin or blessing. 

[kllindley]

11 minutes ago, Pa Pa said:

Are you suggesting that the area highlighted in yellow is the journal of a pioneer from the Saints while crossing the plains?

Not at all.  Francis Webster was a pioneer in one of the Martin or Willie Handcart Companies.  30 years later, when some people were bashing the leaders and members of those companies in Sunday School, he stood and spoke up.  After hearing Wendy Ulrich talk about how his experience demonstrates that power of our narratives, I took the framework of his quote and adapted it to fit my experiences.  I'm sorry that was not more clear.  

 

15 minutes ago, Pa Pa said:

Also if the other words posted are your own, do you think it important or wise to give the full name of your wife? If so, that is (or should be) unfair to your wife...by most standards.

I have no Idea where you think you read the name of my wife in the posts above.  I did not.  

17 minutes ago, Pa Pa said:

But even if from earlier writings of your own, it still has the feel on just cut and paste methods. Especially since in "your writings" have imbedded links to other writtings or articles. All cut and paste posts require you own comments, this rule is to help gage what posters believe and feel now, it helps,posters know and understand you better. Your call, but we would all like to know you as a poster, by reading who you are unrehurshed. So, here's hoping for that chance for us all to know you better.

I apologize for not more clearly explaining that all links were to the original full blog posts I had written earlier.  I also apologize for not having the time to re-type all of my thoughts and experiences anew each time.  I had thought that by selectively quoting passages that I still believe to be accurate representations of what I believe, I had maintained integrity about that I believe and feel now.  Maybe I need to re-evaluate the extent of my participation here if there is an expectation of all new content.  I have just noticed a glaring absence of this perspective (active LGBT LDS) in recent discussions and thought it would be worthwhile to point out other perspectives that do exist.  I apologize if I have misunderstood the expectations of this board.  

If you need a fresh version in a nutshell: I fully believe that Heavenly Father loves each of His children and desires for each of them to be as happy as possible in this life, while also focusing on the eternal joy available through Eternal Life.  I believe that the Restored Gospel found in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints represents the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, that it is lead by priesthood authority, and that following the teachings and principles of that gospel is both our best chance for happiness in this life and our only chance for a fullness of joy in the life to come.  At the same time, I recognize that God has not seen fit to provide that opportunity to the vast majority of His children in Mortality.  I don't understand why, but I trust that He knows what he is doing.  So it doesn't bother me too much when some people state that they find peace or happiness outside of the Church.  I have faith in the redemptive power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ to make everything just and merciful in the end.  

 

[kllindley]

29 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

As a general rule of dialogue (both on this board and elsewhere), you cannot expect others to act in ways you are not willing to.  So if you're asking someone to consider a different perspective, or drop their paradigm, or consider (really consider) that their views may be wrong, then you have to be willing to do the same. Unfortunately, the number of times that happens is very small. Most often people "dialogue" by asking that the other person open their mind, but without them doing the same. And that just doesn't work. 

To be clear, I'm not suggesting that you're being the hypocrite here. But I would suggest that if you want to credibly ask someone to reconsider a paradigm, that you take the good faith initiative first and demonstrate that behavior by reconsidering yours. 

Thank you for the comment.  As I read and reflect I guess I have to admit that I just don't understand.  In the same post you quote I spent two paragraphs working to empathize and express validation for californiaboy's perspective.  In previous posts on other threads I have commented that I used to share a paradigm similar to what he has expressed and therefore believe that while I no longer find it useful/accurate, I respect it as a valid viewpoint.  I don't see my questions as asking anybody to reconsider their own paradigm or trying to accept mine.  I guess I believe that two (or more) people can respect and value other opinions while still holding firmly to their own beliefs.  

Maybe the problem is that I am assuming too much to expect that people know what is meant by the essentialist vs. constructionist debate in sexual orientation.  In other words there is a strong debate (outside of the Church or religion) about whether sexual orientation/identity/behavior is a biologically determined, unchageable, trait that is at the very essence of a person (essentialism) or whether social environment, culture, and personal experiences interact with biological predispositions in the formation of sexual orientation and identity (constructionism).  This is very different from claiming that people choose to "be gay" or that "parents/abuse/whatever makes people gay."  It recognizes that while a person rarely experiences any sense of choice in the development of sexual orientation, what meaning people assign to that experience (and how they subsequently choose to live their lives) varies greatly depending on personal choice, cultural expectations, socialization, and a host of other factors.  

Again, I acknowledge that many people find the essentialist perspective compelling and congruent with their personal experiences.  I am not asking them to change that view.  I am asking them to acknowledge that it is not the only reasonable way to view sexual orientation.  If we can accept this difference of opinion, maybe we can come to some peace on how not to constantly keep talking past each other and saying hurtful things.  

[UtahTexan]

Is there a reason we have a new of these every few days?

[Calm]

Probably because no one is reporting them.  In the past the mods limited them to a few active ones at a time because they tend to proliferate for various reasons while often ending in the same repetitious debate.

[strappinglad]

I took the time to read through all of kllindley's posts and found much that is refreshing and " new " to the debate. The comments of some others have be same ol' same ol'. Thanks for your perspective kl .

[mfbukowski]

13 hours ago, kllindley said:

 In previous posts on other threads I have commented that I used to share a paradigm similar to what he has expressed and therefore believe that while I no longer find it useful/accurate, I respect it as a valid viewpoint.

I am not sure what this could mean.  If it is not useful or accurate how is it "valid"?

[mfbukowski]

14 hours ago, kllindley said:

Thank you for the comment.  As I read and reflect I guess I have to admit that I just don't understand.  In the same post you quote I spent two paragraphs working to empathize and express validation for californiaboy's perspective.  In previous posts on other threads I have commented that I used to share a paradigm similar to what he has expressed and therefore believe that while I no longer find it useful/accurate, I respect it as a valid viewpoint.  I don't see my questions as asking anybody to reconsider their own paradigm or trying to accept mine.  I guess I believe that two (or more) people can respect and value other opinions while still holding firmly to their own beliefs.  

Maybe the problem is that I am assuming too much to expect that people know what is meant by the essentialist vs. constructionist debate in sexual orientation.  In other words there is a strong debate (outside of the Church or religion) about whether sexual orientation/identity/behavior is a biologically determined, unchageable, trait that is at the very essence of a person (essentialism) or whether social environment, culture, and personal experiences interact with biological predispositions in the formation of sexual orientation and identity (constructionism).  This is very different from claiming that people choose to "be gay" or that "parents/abuse/whatever makes people gay."  It recognizes that while a person rarely experiences any sense of choice in the development of sexual orientation, what meaning people assign to that experience (and how they subsequently choose to live their lives) varies greatly depending on personal choice, cultural expectations, socialization, and a host of other factors.  

Again, I acknowledge that many people find the essentialist perspective compelling and congruent with their personal experiences.  I am not asking them to change that view.  I am asking them to acknowledge that it is not the only reasonable way to view sexual orientation.  If we can accept this difference of opinion, maybe we can come to some peace on how not to constantly keep talking past each other and saying hurtful things.  

So essentialism is the view that sexual orientation cannot be changed. 

Quote

 In other words there is a strong debate (outside of the Church or religion) about whether sexual orientation/identity/behavior is a biologically determined, unchageable, trait that is at the very essence of a person (essentialism)

And constructivism is the view that sexual orientation cannot be changed.

Quote

 It recognizes that while a person rarely experiences any sense of choice in the development of sexual orientation,

Uh huh

I am not seeing the distinction

I am just tired of politically correct platitudes in these discussions.

Edited July 27, 2016 by mfbukowski

[kllindley]

8 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

So essentialism is the view that sexual orientation cannot be changed. 

And constructivism is the view that sexual orientation cannot be changed.

Uh huh

I am not seeing the distinction

I am just tired of politically correct platitudes in these discussions.

Not really.  Essentialism and Constructivism are more basic paradigms about what sexual orientation even is.  Part of the essentialist assumption about sexual orientation is that it is (at least relatively) permanent and cannot be changed because it is as biologically driven as height, skin tone, etc.  In the essentialist paradigm, there is no real distinction between attraction/orientation and behavior/identity.  On the other hand Constructivism posits that different people experience all sorts of sexual feelings and attractions.  How people make sense of those experiences depends on social factors and individual(including biological) factors.  This means that some Constructivists will make sense of attractions by arguing that all social constrictions on sexual expression are unnecessary and that a person should do whatever they feel like doing.  But Constructivism also allows for a person to view sexual attraction and desire as a natural experience that must be educated or bridled in harmony with God's Laws.  Constructivism also leaves open the possibility that some people may, whether through intentional effort or just life experience, experience changes in their experience of sexual attraction and desire.  

I can see how it might seem like a politically correct platitude to acknowledge that some people accept the essentialist paradigm.  From the lens of the Restored Gospel, an essentialist argument can be fully compatible.  It would mean that sexual orientation is a genetic defect akin to Down's Syndrome.  I can't imagine anyone trying to tell an individual with Down's Syndrome that if they try hard enough or have enough faith they can be cured.  At the same time, while this person's experience is biologically and genetically driven, I don't think anyone expects the condition to persist after mortality.  There is a lot of ambiguity about the extent to which such a person is accountable for their actions and what is expected of them in this life, nevertheless there is general acceptance that these people have a place in the plan of salvation.  

Can you see how this way of viewing the situation may be insulting and discouraging to a person who experiences same-sex attraction?  I think california boy has made an effort to point out that sexual orientation is about much more than urges for specific sexual activities.  It encompasses deep emotional, social, and physical feelings.  Trying to fit an essentialist argument in the gospel can work doctrinally, but it is a pretty bleak and hopeless situation.  I think this is why so many people, members and otherwise find the Church's position so discouraging and frustrating and believe that it must change to be just and moral.  Almost invariably these individuals accept an essentialist paradigm, often without even knowing that there is an alternative.  From an essentialist perspective, messages from the Church sounds insulting and discouraging and even inconsistent or dishonest.  At best it may seem like we are comparing them to people with Down's Syndrome, when we talk about all blessings being available to all of God's children and everything being made right in the afterlife (some "magical" change to being straight).  Other times it seems like we deny their existence ("no homosexual members of the Church") or assume that they are the moral equivalent of pedophiles, drug users, alcoholics, etc.  The message could be seen as you aren't really gay because God would never do that, but since you think you are, just pretend that part of you doesn't exist and we promise you will be happy after you are dead.  

I don't believe that is the message of the Church.  Because I don't accept the essentialist paradigm.  The Constructivist paradigm gives me the freedom to accept that my sexual attractions and emotional and social feelings are real and powerful.  However, they don't define me.  They are a part of me and I have the power to determine how that part of me fits into my identity and how I want to live my life.  It says that some parts of my attractions are likely influenced by biology, but that cannot be the whole answer.  If how I choose to act and think can have even a small impact on how I experience those attractions, wouldn't that make a huge difference?  Constructivism allows for this possibility by defining sexual orientation as the same as any other personality trait, preference, or even physical ability. This isn't meant to dismiss the reality of the experience, but allows for it to be repositioned. In constructivism there are many more analogies to sexual orientation that open up new possibilities. 

I think that some people are born inherently more shy.  This naturally shy person can intentionally cultivate more outgoing and charismatic aspects of his personality or to embrace shyness as part of his identity.  Learning to act more outgoing doesn't erase his internal sense of shyness.  It is unlikely that that person "forgets" how to be quiet and withdrawn, and it may still be easier that person to revert back to shyness at times.  But we don't have to call him inauthentic or self-loathing when he makes the choice to engage people.  

I was a clumsy child.  I tried to be more graceful and athletic, but things just got worse through adolescence.  Eventually, in early adulthood I found that my efforts started to pay off and I greatly reduced this physical awkwardness.  But I am just never going to be as coordinated and physically balanced as my brother.  Would we seek to outlaw my dad from agreeing to help when I asked him to help me know how to exercise and practice being athletic because I was a minor?  Does it matter that even though I hated my body for not responding the way I wanted it to, he felt like my lack of improvement indicated a lack of effort?  

I've heard people say that my wife is missing out on something by not being married to a straight man.  Some people are naturally musical and can sit down at a piano and play music without ever taking lessons or learning to read music.  Most of us need some training and practice to learn to play the piano well.  Does it really matter to the listener whether the person is playing from natural ability with minimal practice or whether the performance is the result of years of dedicated practice and effort?  Could it even be possible that the natural player is sometimes undisciplined or impulsive, or finds that his natural ability will only get him so far leaving him unprepared to overcome more challenging obstacles?  

What about intelligence?  It being smart a bad thing or a good thing.  I know kids who just pick up everything they see, hear, or read.  This amazing talent can be both a blessing and a curse.  Some of these kids become know-it-alls who think they are better than other kids and therefore become socially isolated.  Others might find themselves bored and use their intelligence to get into major trouble.  This isn't because being smart is a bad thing.  But intelligence has to be harnessed and directed.  Similarly maybe being able to experience strong feelings of brotherly love and closeness to other men is not inherently some "defect" or "temptation."  Maybe it can be a blessing when directed towards loving and serving and kept within the bounds the Lord has set.  

10 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I am not sure what this could mean.  If it is not useful or accurate how is it "valid"?

In the above examples, a person could easily take an more essentialist view and say that a shy person should just accept his shyness, a clumsy kid might be better off going out for band than basketball, and if you don't have musical talent, don't spend you life trying to become a concert pianist.  None of these really presents a moral problem.  But with sexual orientation, the Church teaches that any "expression" of that trait (from sex to dating/kissing/etc.) is a sin.  This isn't a problem for people who do not share or accept this religious belief.  They are free to stick with the essentialist paradigm and either never join the Church, leave the Church, or stay and believe that the Church is wrong and needs to/will eventually change.  For people making any of those choices or holding those beliefs, essentialism can remain valid and useful.  

Given my experiences and spiritual convictions, that paradigm could not work and I found the constructivist view to be much more congruent with my beliefs and experiences.  But I accept that for whatever reason, not everyone shares my experiences and beliefs. 

Does that help clarify where I am coming from?

 

[theplains]

On 25/07/2016 at 7:58 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

I said nothing of sin, but of challenges -- which all of us face.  Mormons believe that those challenges are a good thing, and that they build character.  Do you concur?  Jesus tells us that neither the blind man nor his parents sinned that he was born blind.  Maybe you didn't get that message, Jim.  Read John 9 again.  Do you understand the principle?  Do you reject it?

I understand the concept of challenges, which I accept.

What 'challenges' [in the context of LGBT] do you consider as being sinful to God?

Thanks,
Jim

[Calm]

I am the perfect example of the inherently shy child, as is my daughter.  I labeled my own shyness as "terminally shy" and it affected pretty much all aspects of my life to such a degree, I was thinking about it so much, it is indeed a very large part of my identity.  But I also have a huge desire to understand and be understood so I cultivated the ability to talk to others. It came down to making a conscious choice about what I wanted to have in my life.  Most people are surprised when I tell them I am extremely introverted, but then they aren't around when I spend days not being able to leave my house or even my bedroom comfortably.  Being shy has actually led to me in many ways being better at interacting with others from what I have been told  as I pay close attention to signs of discomfort and act on them because of my own experiences.

Edited July 27, 2016 by Calm