What are your thoughts on the reasons why members of the Church are called to specific callings, why mistakes are made, and judging the Church based on the merits of those who perform these callings.

[gopher]

39 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

When I was called for a position in the RS, the Bishop let me know that I was the RS President's choice. How does this work?  Was I called to a position because I was God's choice, the RS President's choice or the Bishop?  Does input from others make a difference on whether it is a calling from God?

Handbook 2, Chart of Callings shows that Auxiliary presidents recommend counselors and secretaries in ward auxiliaries (except Young Men), advisers, teachers, or instructors; music directors; and other callings in ward auxiliaries (except Young Men).

Why can't RS Presidents receive revelation for their recommendations?  Smart Bishops listen to their RS Presidents.

[Jeanne]

2 minutes ago, gopher said:

Handbook 2, Chart of Callings shows that Auxiliary presidents recommend counselors and secretaries in ward auxiliaries (except Young Men), advisers, teachers, or instructors; music directors; and other callings in ward auxiliaries (except Young Men).

Why can't RS Presidents receive revelation for their recommendations?  Smart Bishops listen to their RS Presidents.

Oh...I agree.  I am thinking that after her choices, the Bishop's work is done.  I just wondered if inspiration from God comes from just more sources than just the Bishop as this is how it is contrived when you sit down with him.  Organization heads should always have input but wondered, too, if a Bishop has ever disregarded that.  I imagine this is where prayer is key.

[Rain]

6 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Fourth, given the foregoing possibility, we are each of us entitled - and I think expected and required - to seek confirmation from the Spirit about a calling that may not feel right.  Some folks are ready, willing and able to serve in pretty much any calling anywhere because owing to their circumstances in the moment they "cannot go amiss."  But we need to be reasonable about such things.  There are times when we can "go amiss."  There are times when a calling may be too much of an undue, running-faster-than-you-have-strength burden, or otherwise not the right fit.  If that is a possibility, it is incumbent upon us to seek spiritual guidance for ourselves (we're entitled to it), and to counsel with the bishop.

 

Agreed. That had never been more clear to me then with this calling. It was very important that I pray about it the first time when I didn't feel right about it. I wanted to make sure I was in a place where the Lord could tell me if it was right - making sure I was humbled enough to accept the calling if It was right.  I needed prayer to get there and then I needed prayer to make sure what his will was in the matter.   

This time had been different. It's interesting to me because in my scripture studies currently I am searching for how to receive inspiration so it is much on my mind, yet I never felt I needed to pray about the calling this time around. In fact,  when I ask myself about it,  I find myself asking back,  "why would I do that? " It is just so common sense to me that I could fill in where needed that I don't need to be praying about it.

 

 

[ERMD]

This thread wins the "Longest Title, Ever" award.

[Calm]

And I have a glitch that makes titles run down, not across the page...so way too much scrolling involved.  

[Guest]

19 hours ago, James Tunney said:

I think a lot of callings are a result of who the higher ups know. I grew up in a ward that had several 70s and apostles over the years and so it wasn't surprising to me when half the ward were called as mission presidents. It's also not surprising that there are a lot of familial relationships among the Q12/FP with past leaders. You call who you know already. You call people to callings that you know people can handle, especially if it's a calling that no one else wants.

As opposed to calling someone to serve that you have never met? Having discussed and called many, and having been called to serve, some familial information must be known. 

[mfbukowski]

14 hours ago, rongo said:

What an important topic! 

Brigham Young, who is my favorite prophet (Joseph Smith being in his own category), had two insights about revelation with a special bearing on callings and other things that are very important to us, personally.

 

 

 

Both of these are very true in my experience, and crucial for members to understand. I'm in my second go-around as a bishop, and I served as a bishopric counselor in two prior bishoprics. I don't like it when people ask "Did you pray about this?" or "Did you receive inspiration?" when they are extended a calling. In my experience, members who say this are not happy about the calling, and that's why they say it (granted, most are willing to accept it in the end, but they use this passive/aggressive way of gently registering their protest). 

That said, I have had people decline callings, and I have "pulled out of the dive" myself when discussion about the calling and circumstances reveals that it would be best not to go forward with the calling. I've had a member of the 70 tell me, proudly, that he has never had a person decline a calling while a bishop, stake president, or general authority. Where people declined or expressed concerns, he played the "this is like it's being extended by Jesus himself" card. I don't like that. In my book, we extend callings to people who have agency, and I respect their agency (I really respect it, which means that I continue to respect them when they exercise it contrary to what is convenient for me in managing callings). I have learned of genuine concerns and circumstances that I feel counseling together with them has yielded further light on the matter, and I don't regard it as being a "bad member" per se if a calling is declined or concerns are expressed.

What I get out of Brigham Young's statements above (and my own experience) is:

1) God doesn't always give us revelation. Even when we are worthy, and even when we really need it. In his wisdom, it is better for us to not have our prayers always instantly answered (or sometimes, answered at all). We grow through the total experience of positive and negative --- and sometimes no --- revelation.

2) If we earnestly seek for revelation for important things (in this discussion: callings), and he doesn't give it (and my experience is that this happens, and that it is wisdom in God that it is this way), then we use our heart and our mind and do the best we can. And God will "own and honor" that. In my experience, many/some experiences with callings are in this category.  Regardless of whether or not the bishop's inspiration meets the standard of the person being extended the calling, it is being extended through the priesthood keys for that ward. 

3) Further, as Brigham Young said above, "it is only when experience fails that revelation is necessary." For many, many callings, experience and knowledge are sufficient. The demand that each and every calling have a back-of-the-Ensign story attached to the inspiration for the calling is inappropriate and unrealistic. 

4) Personally, I don't leave people in callings longer than 18 months (sometimes, when people are really, really happy and really, really good in primary callings, I leave them in longer). This especially includes presidencies. And, I try more so than most, I think, to not simply rotate "the usual suspects" (the handful of most competent, strong people) among the various presidencies (RS, YW, P / YM, EQ). My "obvious presidency material" is largely in primary (I try to put my absolutely best people in primary). This means that a lot of different people have had or will have the opportunity to be in leadership, instead of just "the usual suspects." All of this is my personal "studying it out in my mind" outline, but revelation trumps it sometimes. And thank God for that!  

5) I am very sympathetic to people who have had a certain calling lots of times before, and are asked to do it again. I have changed my callings based on frank discussion about this with the person ("pulling out of the dive"). For some reason, many people do not want to be in nursery (and have been in it many times, including recently). To me, this is a valid factor to consider, and may be subject to change. I hope I get called into nursery when I'm done!

6) I also take very seriously the revelation/attempts at revelation for my presidents. We recently released our young women's presidency and called a new president. She submitted her proposed counselors and presidency members, and on paper it could not have been a worse list for a number of reasons. She was very sincere and discussed her thought process and attempts at revelation. As we discussed as a bishopric, my counselors had serious concerns --- especially with the group as a whole or as a unit. As we prayed about it, and had a second discussion with her, we felt to move forward with it except for one recommended replacement. The sisters and their husbands were very excited, and I'm excited to see what happens in the next year and a half with this presidency! It is not a presidency I am likely to have picked myself, and many of these sisters will now have an opportunity they would not have otherwise had. I'm grateful for the counsel we received in this process, and for the experience of the process itself.

7) Sometimes, powerful revelation comes, and it is unmistakable. It is not on demand, though. In my previous ward, we were nearing the point where we were going to release our Relief Society president. She had been in for around a year and a half, and was nearing her delivery date in her pregnancy. During sacrament meeting, I had a strong feeling in sacrament meeting that a young sister (25 years old, mother of two young children) should be the next RS president. When this clear thought occurred to me, I instantly had several counter-thoughts about why the idea was ridiculous. She was so young, she was a convert of just a few years, she and her husband had recently emerged from a two-year period of inactivity, she had strong liberal political views much different from my own, etc. As these thoughts came to me, a very forceful thought pressed itself into my mind: "Yes. Her."  I was struck by how forceful and powerful the thought was. The feeling was so different from my own thoughts, that it was almost like hearing the words spoken. I then imagined what things would be like, what she would do, if she was the RS president, and a very peaceful feeling came over me. Hard to put into words, but much more than a "peaceful, easy feeling." It was as if the veil were parted, and I could see what would happen --- all of it good. I shared my experience with my counselors, and we prayed about it and agreed to consider it longer. As the next week went by, every time I thought about it, I had the same feeling of peace, and this gave me absolute confidence to move forward with it. We released the presidency, called the sister (she was quite surprised, but did a good job of submitting a presidency). That Sunday, the outgoing president was in the hospital with her baby clinging to life, so she wasn't there for the release in front of the congregation. The timing was perfect, given the months of worry and hospital procedures that followed. And, the new presidency did an excellent job and served well. 

8 ) Rain reminded me of something that isn't common, but still happens: sometimes, callings may not work out well for the ward or organization or the person himself, but can be instrumental for the person at the same time. I have a brother in our ward who transgressed as a prominent priesthood leader. He and his wife recently found out via a letter to the stake president that reinstatement will require First Presidency approval, and that they won't consider it for a minimum of five years. They are devastated, and struggling with it. I met with the sister recently, and in the course of our discussion, shared that I think that he was called into his position to bring about the full repentance process. He previously had not been honest with her or with other priesthood leaders, but his calling put things in motion that brought things to a head, and while it's painful and long process, he is finally fully resolving things. And this would not have happened if he had not been in his position. 

I believe it is possible that sometimes God's reason for why people are in a certain calling is to help them or others make the personal growth they need to make. This can look to us outwardly as a really bad choice or a botched calling. 

These are some thoughts that I have on this . . .

Great post- thanks!   I mostly agree

While I was bishop I too experienced a sudden impression to call individuals to a particular calling- they seemed to "pop out" to me- almost as if I saw them bathed in light.   I had the experience also for a few whom I felt to simply be called into my office for a chat, and always there were special concerns they were having, questions, or just something they needed to say.

We had an an area leadership conference at one point led by Elder Perry and he voiced the opinion very forcefully that positions in the top ward leadership should be for 5 years, especially for the Elder's Quorum president, because he felt that a process of maturation was necessary to create good leaders.  I always had trouble with that- 5 years is the average calling for a Bishop, and seems far too long for an EQP in my opinion, but on the other hand I think a year and a half is too short.   I think Elder P was right that there is a process of maturation which is necessary, unless it becomes clear that the individual is "burning out"

I now serve on the HC with the responsibility, among others, of serving and training a ward's Melchizadek Priesthood- HP and elders and think probably if I were to pick a time limit in general terms I would say probably about 3 years.

That seems to be about what mission presidents and temple presidents serve, which are "higher" callings but no less difficult I think for an EQP with a young family, working full time and striving to magnify his calling.  It takes time to learn to balance the responsibilities of an EQP, learning how to manage giving the quorum great lessons, compassionate home teaching, and general service like setting up chairs and helping people move etc.  And I would lean toward the same limits for Primary Presidents, RS presidents, YM and YW leaders as well- same kind of stuff!

With that exception- great post!

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, Jeanne said:

Oh...I agree.  I am thinking that after her choices, the Bishop's work is done.  I just wondered if inspiration from God comes from just more sources than just the Bishop as this is how it is contrived when you sit down with him.  Organization heads should always have input but wondered, too, if a Bishop has ever disregarded that.  I imagine this is where prayer is key.

 It's NEVER that simple!

Each leader prays about their counselors and the bishop approves them- or not.  The bishop is privy to information about every member no one else knows.  A RS president may be inspired to call someone from another leadership position, perhaps a primary presidency counselor etc- which could very well be an inspired choice, yet the bishop may know that would throw the ward into chaos to replace the primary counselor with the choice of the RS president, thereby creating a need for a new primary counselor, thereby perhaps getting someone from the YW presidency who would then have to be replaced by..........   ad infinitum.   And that primary counselor has to be there because she is able to deal with the special needs child of someone moving into the ward in a few weeks who......  ETC!

ANY of these people could very well be inspired choices for any position- a good and righteous person can and should serve in all the callings available in the ward, in my opinion, in that person's lifetime.

So someone has to moderate the chaos which would result also considering a given individual NOT knowing that that person in question is about to get a divorce, move out of state, have a hazardous pregnancy, or whatever!

There is enough inspiration all around and the Lord could confirm, I think, any worthy person for any calling, but someone has to guide and direct which good and worthy person should actually be in a particular position right NOW due to circumstances that individual leaders of organization may have no clue about.   YES sister X WOULD be an inspired choice for RS president, or counselor except .... whatever circumstances might prevail

So yes it is always inspiration- but that has to be tempered with good judgement.

And yes, bishops being VERY human, make mistakes as well.  If prophets can make mistakes- somehow bishops should be immune from them??   I wish!!  

[Jeanne]

2 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

 It's NEVER that simple!

Each leader prays about their counselors and the bishop approves them- or not.  The bishop is privy to information about every member no one else knows.  A RS president may be inspired to call someone from another leadership position, perhaps a primary presidency counselor etc- which could very well be an inspired choice, yet the bishop may know that would throw the ward into chaos to replace the primary counselor with the choice of the RS president, thereby creating a need for a new primary counselor, thereby perhaps getting someone from the YW presidency who would then have to be replaced by..........   ad infinitum.   And that primary counselor has to be there because she is able to deal with the special needs child of someone moving into the ward in a few weeks who......  ETC!

ANY of these people could very well be inspired choices for any position- a good and righteous person can and should serve in all the callings available in the ward, in my opinion, in that person's lifetime.

So someone has to moderate the chaos which would result also considering a given individual NOT knowing that that person in question is about to get a divorce, move out of state, have a hazardous pregnancy, or whatever!

There is enough inspiration all around and the Lord could confirm, I think, any worthy person for any calling, but someone has to guide and direct which good and worthy person should actually be in a particular position right NOW due to circumstances that individual leaders of organization may have no clue about.   YES sister X WOULD be an inspired choice for RS president, or counselor except .... whatever circumstances might prevail

So yes it is always inspiration- but that has to be tempered with good judgement.

And yes, bishops being VERY human, make mistakes as well.  If prophets can make mistakes- somehow bishops should be immune from them??   I wish!!  

You know..I forgot that the Bishop may have better insite because he has better understanding/info on someone who may be suggested for a calling.  I feel better now.  He would have had to know my previous problems and yet thought I would do a good job.  Incidently, the RS President got the "let go" afterwords.  No blame to the church, but she wanted everything done to make her look good.  The Bishop saw this as RS sisters started dropping like flies.  I got burned by her..but kudos to the Bishop for seeing the problems.

[ksfisher]

3 hours ago, Jeanne said:

You know..I forgot that the Bishop may have better insite because he has better understanding/info on someone who may be suggested for a calling.  I feel better now.  He would have had to know my previous problems and yet thought I would do a good job.  Incidently, the RS President got the "let go" afterwords.  No blame to the church, but she wanted everything done to make her look good.  The Bishop saw this as RS sisters started dropping like flies.  I got burned by her..but kudos to the Bishop for seeing the problems.

I think with many of rhe problems/opportunities we face in our wards the Lord asks to counsel together and bring our solutions to him.  Just as he asked the Brother of Jared "what do you want me to do?" when he was asked about the lighting problem in the boats.  Same with callings.  If we were to aske the Lord if Brother A or Sister B would be right for a calling the Lord me tell us that "that person would be great for that calling, now go talk to the bishop about it.  Get his counsel and come to a conclusion together."

Most times it seems that revelation is more about working together, with the Lord, to reach the correct answer.  Through this process we learn, grow, and become as one, as He and His Father are one.

Edited July 16, 2016 by ksfisher

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, gopher said:

Handbook 2, Chart of Callings shows that Auxiliary presidents recommend counselors and secretaries in ward auxiliaries (except Young Men), advisers, teachers, or instructors; music directors; and other callings in ward auxiliaries (except Young Men).

Why can't RS Presidents receive revelation for their recommendations?  Smart Bishops listen to their RS Presidents.

Of course they can and DO!!  As with all callings, they receive guidance within their calling, not outside it.

But should the bishop really burden the RS president with all he knows about everyone, even though she does not have the keys to deal with their problems?  Can she call the legal department over a possible molestation or complaint of one?  Can she recommend a disciplinary council for a Melchizadek priesthood member?

And who in their right mind would WANT to know every transgression of every member the bishop has to endure listening to?   And then deciding how to handle them?  Would it help her to know which couples watch pornography in their intimate moments?  Or which priest really should not be blessing the sacrament?   There's a lot of "EWWW" stuff a bishop has to listen to.

Being a bishop is not exactly fun and games.   If they seem gruff sometimes, no they should not, but you never know what just transpired a half hour ago.

[waveslider]

On 7/15/2016 at 10:26 AM, ERMD said:

This thread wins the "Longest Title, Ever" award.

Thank you. I did well for my first try then. I won an award! I will try to keep it more brief next time.

[waveslider]

On 7/15/2016 at 6:23 AM, Rain said:

I am searching for how to receive inspiration so it is much on my mind

I too had this weighing on my mind a lot, because I found that I definitely understood and received answers on some of the most important things in life, but often times I wasn't sure of answers to less critical things, such as getting confirmations about callings and things. I have made it a mission over the past year to constantly pray and ask for help in recognizing and understanding the Spirit and in discernment if it was indeed the Spirit, just in my head, or worse something other than these. I found a book that really helped me in this endeavor, to go along with my scripture study and prayer in this area: Following The Light Of Christ Into His Presence, by  John Pontius. I hope this helps you too.

I find that I am definitely getting better at determining what the Lord is telling me to do. I have received an answer that is satisfactory to me, even as I was originally asked if I would accept my new calling. I actually felt impressed to ask the counselor that question, I also felt impressed that it really didn't matter if I was asked to do this by inspiration, or not, only that God knew I would accept this calling and it fits in perfectly with His plan, so I accepted without any further adieu. My largest concern now is how I can magnify in this calling even more, and I'm sure I will be led into a way to accomplish that, but so far I can't see it yet.

My original discussion with my friend arose when she had doubts as to whether I was called of God to do this calling once again. I've actually had a few people amazed that I was called to it again, even the fist time this bishop called me to it, only one month after not having to do it anymore. Anyway my friend doubted our relatively new bishop, who called me to this, because she trusted the older one better and was convinced that he wouldn't have ever called me back to this calling. I then told her that the Lord usually calls those who are going to grow into their calling over those who would already be experts in that calling. I explained that I didn't get an answer one way or the other if it was an inspired decision, only that it was a decision that would do a lot of good and that it didn't matter to me if it was inspired or not. That just isn't up to me, or anyone else to judge. As long as it doesn't go against the Lord's plan, I am on board all the way, burned out or not. This is the reason I started this discussion in the first place, because I wanted to see what others thought as well.

I am grateful for everyone's input so far and look forward to even more! Thank you all!

[Calm]

It is not just skills that may grow in a calling.  Even if an expert in all the functioning of a calling, other areas of growth could be time management (which could mean figuring out one needs to give quality attention to our loved ones to balance out the less time with them and then hopefully that carries over into after the calling in just improving the communication and attention giving overall), patience, charity (love), or sacrifice...I am sure there are many more.

Just because you are good at a calling doesn't mean you handle everything else in your life that it may impact as well.

[Scott Lloyd]

What are your thoughts on word-count limit, if any, for thread titles?

[waveslider]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

What are your thoughts on word-count limit, if any, for thread titles?

My thoughts are; I'm sorry, someone else already brought this up. It was my first thread I have ever put up, and I promise I'll keep it short from now on.

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, waveslider said:

My thoughts are; I'm sorry, someone else already brought this up. It was my first thread I have ever put up, and I promise I'll keep it short from now on.

Every writer should spend some time composing newspaper headlines. It really does hone one's ability to be concise.