Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

[Johnnie Cake]

Oft times on this board we lose sight of the fact that the LDS Church produces some pretty awesome people.  While one can always find exceptions, for the most part the members of the LDS Church are wonderful, God fearing people who are respected throughout the world for their integrity, their honestly, their hard work ethics and even though much of their service is due to assignment or out of obligation they are also known for performing some wonderful service throughout the world.

While I do have my issues with the church and its truth claims, the people are good decent caring loving people. Just wanted to get that out there and give credit where credit is due

[Tacenda]

You're right, I read this once on a discussion board of disaffected LDS. "The people are perfect, the church is not". A take on the old adage, "The church is perfect, the people are not". Of course it was silly stuff, but really, the church isn't perfect from the top down. The people, IMO, make it hardest to leave for me. 

[ladyshanae]

 

9 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

You're right, I read this once on a discussion board of disaffected LDS. "The people are perfect, the church is not". A take on the old adage, "The church is perfect, the people are not". Of course it was silly stuff, but really, the church isn't perfect from the top down. The people, IMO, make it hardest to leave for me. 

My adage is - the gospel is perfect, the church and its people are not.

[JLHPROF]

Perfection is a journey, not a destination.

Brigham Young -

•  "Be ye as perfect as ye can," for that is all we can do, though it is written, be ye perfect as your Father who is in heaven is perfect. To be as perfect as we possibly can, according to our knowledge, is to be just as perfect as our Father in heaven is. He cannot be any more perfect than He knows how, any more than we. When we are doing as well as we know how in the sphere and station which we occupy here, we are justified in the justice, righteousness, mercy, and judgment that go before the Lord of heaven and earth.

Edited July 7, 2016 by JLHPROF

[Johnnie Cake]

The Mormon people I love are the ones in the trenches...doing the work, loving their neighbors, not passing judgement irrespective of religious or non-religious affiliation, who love and reach out to their non member neighbors and have no expectation of converting them...just being a friend for friends sake, always there to lend a helping hand.

While the LDS Church does not have a monopoly on these kinds of people...they do tend to produce a fair share of them

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Oft times on this board we lose sight of the fact that the LDS Church produces some pretty awesome people.  While one can always find exceptions, for the most part the members of the LDS Church are wonderful, God fearing people who are respected throughout the world for their integrity, their honestly, their hard work ethics and even though much of their service is due to assignment or out of obligation they are also known for performing some wonderful service throughout the world.

While I do have my issues with the church and its truth claims, the people are good decent caring loving people. Just wanted to get that out there and give credit where credit is due

No, or service is not due to assignment, as all can refuse. I have worked with "habitat for humanity". I went down to to aid with Kritina relief, countless service days, electrical work for neighbors (next week will be talking my neighbor through how to wire his home) none without assignment. Many of my friends in Church have done far more than I have. This is an all volunteer Church, and we can refuse any assignment. Everything we do is based on volunteering to do so, born out of Christlike Charity. If someone ordered me to do something, I would not do it. 

[Ahab]

37 minutes ago, Pa Pa said:

No, or service is not due to assignment, as all can refuse. I have worked with "habitat for humanity". I went down to to aid with Kritina relief, countless service days, electrical work for neighbors (next week will be talking my neighbor through how to wire his home) none without assignment. Many of my friends in Church have done far more than I have. This is an all volunteer Church, and we can refuse any assignment. Everything we do is based on volunteering to do so, born out of Christlike Charity. If someone ordered me to do something, I would not do it. 

That is a very good point and I am glad that you made it.  And I think it should also be said that it is by our own choice that we accept others as our leaders or authority figures with jurisdiction above our own authority.  

I don't accept anyone as a leader due to someone ordering me to accept that person as a leader.  It's ALL on a volunteer basis, with me choosing to accept someone as a leader only when I voluntarily choose tobconsider that person as a leader.

[rongo]

4 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

While the LDS Church does not have a monopoly on these kinds of people...they do tend to produce a fair share of them

I really like good, observant Catholics. They are also exceptional people, and good friends. 

[Robert F. Smith]

9 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

The Mormon people I love are the ones in the trenches...doing the work, loving their neighbors, not passing judgement irrespective of religious or non-religious affiliation, who love and reach out to their non member neighbors and have no expectation of converting them...just being a friend for friends sake, always there to lend a helping hand.

While the LDS Church does not have a monopoly on these kinds of people...they do tend to produce a fair share of them

Yeh, but some people say some pretty nasty things about the Mormons . . .

[Robert F. Smith]

7 hours ago, Pa Pa said:

............................................................................

.................................................................... If someone ordered me to do something, I would not do it. 

Like if Jesus said to you: "go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, . . and come and follow me."  Matt 19:21

Or when the Lord said to Jonah, "Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it." (Jonah 1:2)

Both of them refused.

[waveslider]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Yeh, but some people say some pretty nasty things about the Mormons . . .

Some people have, and still say some pretty nasty things about our Savior too. It comes with the territory when you decide to take His name upon us.

Personally it matters not what people say as long as I can be led by His Spirit to do good, spreading His light even in the small gestures towards our fellow man, even if it is in the form of a smile and friendly greeting. That is what brings satisfaction to my soul, not if people talk good about me. Flattery tends to leave pretty quickly, and leaves me empty after the rush of the initial boost to my ego fades.

[ERMD]

2 hours ago, waveslider said:

Some people have, and still say some pretty nasty things about our Savior too. It comes with the territory when you decide to take His name upon us.

Personally it matters not what people say as long as I can be led by His Spirit to do good, spreading His light even in the small gestures towards our fellow man, even if it is in the form of a smile and friendly greeting. That is what brings satisfaction to my soul, not if people talk good about me. Flattery tends to leave pretty quickly, and leaves me empty after the rush of the initial boost to my ego fades.

I just saw your location.  We went to Hawaii for the first time this past January and at the end of our trip spent a couple of days on the North Shore.  Loved it!

[stemelbow]

This is difficult for me.  I want it to be true but in my life the members of the Church are no more decent or good than those who aren't members.  While I agree members generally are good, I'd say all people are, generally.  members dont' seem to have anything on any group of people I've come in contact with. 

[Johnnie Cake]

23 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

This is difficult for me.  I want it to be true but in my life the members of the Church are no more decent or good than those who aren't members.  While I agree members generally are good, I'd say all people are, generally.  members dont' seem to have anything on any group of people I've come in contact with. 

I agree that the church does not have a monopoly on producing good decent people...the world is full of good decent people, Atheists, Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, religious and non religious.  I say this because when I was a believer in Mormonism I falsely believed that the church had an edge over other philosophies' in producing good people and that the church did produce better families than anyone else.   I was completely wrong.  Not only was this a false belief, it is just not true.   Having an amazing, loving, supportive family that produces amazing well behaved, intelligent children who grow up to make major contributions to society is not dependent on being a Mormon.  I would dare say that the some philosophies actually produce mentally healthier children who grow up unbridled with the many constraints that Mormonism requires.  But that's for another thread.

The point of this thread was to merely point out that...sometimes in the back and forth that necessarily takes place on this board we oft times forget (pointing at myself) that despite its faults, the church does a pretty good job of consistently churning out good decent people...hey and I'm one of those people and I think I'm pretty awesome :-)

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

This is difficult for me.  I want it to be true but in my life the members of the Church are no more decent or good than those who aren't members.  While I agree members generally are good, I'd say all people are, generally.  members dont' seem to have anything on any group of people I've come in contact with. 

I agree with you as most of my co-workers aren't LDS and I find them to be wonderful people, many of which are much more inclined to serve others, and are more thoughtful and caring than I am.  I think Mormons are a particular breed of good people, but I don't know if Mormonism makes them that way or not, implying a cause and effect type relationship.  

I'm also not sure if the idea of being a "God fearing" person is qualitatively better than not being a God fearing person.  

Maybe its the skeptic in me, but I don't like the idea of saying that Mormonism produces these people.  I think Mormonism certainly has an effect, but I'm not sure that you can give it credit for producing a better people.  Conversely I don't like to say that Mormonism is the source of so many ills that are a part of our culture.  Its an influencing factor in both good and bad for sure.  

[thesometimesaint]

18 hours ago, Tacenda said:

You're right, I read this once on a discussion board of disaffected LDS. "The people are perfect, the church is not". A take on the old adage, "The church is perfect, the people are not". Of course it was silly stuff, but really, the church isn't perfect from the top down. The people, IMO, make it hardest to leave for me. 

Christ is the head of the Church. He is perfect. Us mortals have a ways to go.

Ephesians 4:11-16King James Version (KJV)

¹¹ And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

¹² For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

¹³ Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

¹⁴ That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

¹⁵ But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

¹⁶ From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Like if Jesus said to you: "go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, . . and come and follow me."  Matt 19:21

Or when the Lord said to Jonah, "Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it." (Jonah 1:2)

Both of them refused.

I am still working on my perfection training.  

[Guest]

6 hours ago, waveslider said:

Some people have, and still say some pretty nasty things about our Savior too. It comes with the territory when you decide to take His name upon us.

Personally it matters not what people say as long as I can be led by His Spirit to do good, spreading His light even in the small gestures towards our fellow man, even if it is in the form of a smile and friendly greeting. That is what brings satisfaction to my soul, not if people talk good about me. Flattery tends to leave pretty quickly, and leaves me empty after the rush of the initial boost to my ego fades.

I am 59 years old, I have never heard anyone say nasty things about Jesus Christ. I cannot count the horrifying things said about all our Prophets, and members. It does matter what people say, as speaking evil and hatred keeps them from feeling the (or being  led by) the Holy Spirit. Here is this very Nation, founded upon "freedom of religion", Joseph and Hyrum were murdered by a Christian mob, men who were never convicted, but were in Church the following Sunday. No one was convicted for the many murders, rapes and property stolen from Kirtland to Nauvoo, the burning of our Temple in Nauvoo. Words matter, words are what incite others to violence and murder. Also we are told often to govern our mouths, the words that we speak, "Let thy communication by yea, yea or nay nay, anything more than this commeth of evil". I hope I quoted it correctly, my father quoted it enough while I was growing up. Christ warned that "But I say unto you, that idle word men shall speak, they shall give an account on the day of judgement" (again to paraphrase working from memory). 

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

I agree with you as most of my co-workers aren't LDS and I find them to be wonderful people, many of which are much more inclined to serve others, and are more thoughtful and caring than I am.  I think Mormons are a particular breed of good people, but I don't know if Mormonism makes them that way or not, implying a cause and effect type relationship.  

I'm also not sure if the idea of being a "God fearing" person is qualitatively better than not being a God fearing person.  

Maybe its the skeptic in me, but I don't like the idea of saying that Mormonism produces these people.  I think Mormonism certainly has an effect, but I'm not sure that you can give it credit for producing a better people.  Conversely I don't like to say that Mormonism is the source of so many ills that are a part of our culture.  Its an influencing factor in both good and bad for sure.  

There is good in everyone. 

[hope_for_things]

6 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

There is good in everyone. 

I agree.  I think a better question would be what ways has Mormonism contributed positively to society?  Another equally important question would be in what ways has Mormonism had a negative impact on society?  

[Jeanne]

2 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I agree.  I think a better question would be what ways has Mormonism contributed positively to society?  Another equally important question would be in what ways has Mormonism had a negative impact on society?  

Mormons do much good.  I have seen it.  The  greatest good any religion can do for another..and all people for one another..is measured by example. 

 

2 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

 

 

[theplains]

12 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Yeh, but some people say some pretty nasty things about the Mormons . . .

Imagine how the Christians around Joseph Smith felt like when he said all their creeds were an abomination.

Jim

[Robert F. Smith]

9 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I agree that the church does not have a monopoly on producing good decent people...the world is full of good decent people, Atheists, Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, religious and non religious.  I say this because when I was a believer in Mormonism I falsely believed that the church had an edge over other philosophies' in producing good people and that the church did produce better families than anyone else.   I was completely wrong.  Not only was this a false belief, it is just not true.   Having an amazing, loving, supportive family that produces amazing well behaved, intelligent children who grow up to make major contributions to society is not dependent on being a Mormon.  I would dare say that the some philosophies actually produce mentally healthier children who grow up unbridled with the many constraints that Mormonism requires.  But that's for another thread.

..................................................................................................   

A young Jewish girl named Anne Frank once wrote that 

Quote

Human greatness does not lie in wealth or power, but in character and goodness.  People are just people, and all people have faults and shortcomings, but all of us are born with a basic goodness.

She also said that 

Quote

It’s twice as hard for us young ones to hold our ground, and maintain our opinions, in a time when all ideals are being shattered and destroyed, when people are showing their worst side, and do not know whether to believe in truth and right and God. 

The Jewish community has long had an edge in producing people of powerful intellect and who espouse extraordinarily strong commitment to high ethical and moral ideals.  Their thousands of years of survival as a people is no accident, and not every culture is as effective as every other.  That is relativistic nonsense.  Some groups have actually done a better job of organizing themselves than others, and the results are measurable.  We can learn a lot from successful cultures, but careless, off-hand observations might not be the best way to go about it.  If we really want to know what the relative merits of this or that culture might be, we should apply serious statistical measuring techniques to the question.  We need clarity, not kudos.

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, theplains said:

Imagine how the Christians around Joseph Smith felt like when he said all their creeds were an abomination.

Jim

So, Jim, you picture Joseph going about loudly declaring that to every Methodist and Presbyterian he met?  Or was that what Jesus told him?

In fact, even after his First Vision, didn't Joseph actually attend Methodist services?  And wasn't Joseph always extremely courteous and kind to members of other religions, saying that Mormonism should accept truth from any group?  Indeed, unlike other religions, the LDS Church has always had a policy of just preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ, instead of bad-mouthing and persecuting other religions.

[waveslider]

11 hours ago, ERMD said:

I just saw your location.  We went to Hawaii for the first time this past January and at the end of our trip spent a couple of days on the North Shore.  Loved it!

Yeah, the North shore is pretty special to me too. That's why for the better part of the past 27 years I have called it home. My ward here in Waialua is a very special ward to me too!