theplains Posted July 25, 2016 Posted July 25, 2016 6 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Yes, that is the content of the official history created almost 20 years after the event, and not in Joseph's hand (indeed, Richard Bushman wonders how much of that account is actually Joseph, and how much his scribes' version). That official account becomes a key part of a 20th century LDS tract called "Joseph Smith Tells His Own Story," but is seldom commented on before that -- maybe one late 19th century sermon. Otherwise, we have only this comment attributed to Joseph that he was immediately rebuffed when describing his First Vision experience. However, we do not know to which preacher he spoke, nor what he said that so riled him up. He was after all just a kid at that time, around 14 years old. He may have been ridiculed and bullied for a time, but that doesn't tell us what he in fact told anyone at that time. As usual, Jim, you miss the point that Joseph was not going about railing against other churches for having abominable creeds. We simply have no record of him doing so. No one ever said that Joseph Smith railed against other churches, screamed at other churches, preached 24x7 against other churches, etc ... so I don't know why you keep trying to sensationalize the matter of how he supposedly spoke his message. But history is clear that this message that all their doctrines were an abomination given to him supposedly by Jesus or Heavenly Father formed the basis of his persecution and his apparent need that he felt to bring about a restoration. Either this history is true or it is false ... no matter when it was written. If you don't get that impression from the LDS historical record, I can't help you. We can agree to disagree. If the content of the official history is incorrect, well ... that wouldn't surprise me. They tend to quote prophets when they agree with them, but remain silent when they say something they don't agree with. Also, I find it rather odd that anyone would persecute Joseph the way they did. If a 15 year old boy made the same claim today, his mom would take him to see a doctor or give him some cookies and milk. But persecution to how Joseph described it? ... hardly. I would have to surmise that history records a great deal of exaggeration on his part. Here's a hypothetical conversation: Me: "Oh pastor ... Jesus and Heavenly Father appeared to me today and told me that your church teaches abominable creeds and that I should not be a member here anymore." Pastor: "You must be mistaken" ... or "Are you sure?" ... or "Maybe you had a dream" If you want me to exaggerate ... Pastor: "You are an ignorant young lad! You have no idea what you're saying. How dare you insult the church. I'll make sure everyone makes your life a living hell until you recant your accusation." Regards, Jim
Robert F. Smith Posted July 25, 2016 Posted July 25, 2016 2 minutes ago, theplains said: No one ever said that Joseph Smith railed against other churches, screamed at other churches, preached 24x7 against other churches, etc ... so I don't know why you keep trying to sensationalize the matter of how he supposedly spoke his message. But history is clear that this message that all their doctrines were an abomination given to him supposedly by Jesus or Heavenly Father formed the basis of his persecution and his apparent need that he felt to bring about a restoration. We have no evidence that this was the basis of his persecution, except your say so. Either this history is true or it is false ... no matter when it was written. If you don't get that impression from the LDS historical record, I can't help you. We can agree to disagree. If the content of the official history is incorrect, well ... that wouldn't surprise me. They tend to quote prophets when they agree with them, but remain silent when they say something they don't agree with. Historians don't work by "impression" but by fact. Also, I find it rather odd that anyone would persecute Joseph the way they did. If a 15 year old boy made the same claim today, his mom would take him to see a doctor or give him some cookies and milk. But persecution to how Joseph described it? ... hardly. I would have to surmise that history records a great deal of exaggeration on his part. You want to have your cake and eat it too? The record, according to you, is both true and false. Here's a hypothetical conversation: Me: "Oh pastor ... Jesus and Heavenly Father appeared to me today and told me that your church teaches abominable creeds and that I should not be a member here anymore." Pastor: "You must be mistaken" ... or "Are you sure?" ... or "Maybe you had a dream" If you want me to exaggerate ... Pastor: "You are an ignorant young lad! You have no idea what you're saying. How dare you insult the church. I'll make sure everyone makes your life a living hell until you recant your accusation." Regards, Jim Once again, Jim, you are falsifying the record. I was with you as long as you were quoting actual sources in that previous post, but now you have decided to put words in people's mouths. A little restraint and objectivity would be nice, Jim. You need to take some basic history courses at a local college, and learn some of the proper historiographical procedures. You are apparently so filled with anti-Mormon hate that any imaginary negative statement seems real to you. Rage is not a reliable source of good historiography.
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