theplains Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 I had some questions on the article in the June 2016 Liahona magazine. "The plan of salvation was first taught on this earth to Adam and Eve, our first parents. They learned about the gospel of Jesus Christ and how to return to Heavenly Father’s presence." Was this in the Garden of Eden or after the Fall? "Telestial kingdom: the home of those who were wicked and did not accept the gospel of Jesus Christ, who were not resurrected until after the Millennium (see D&C 76:81–89)." Does this mean the wicked people, who rejected Jesus and his gospel, will live better lives than they currently do on Earth? "Exaltation includes being sealed in marriage for eternity, living in eternal families, and having eternal spirit offspring. (See D&C 76:59, 62; 130:2; 132:19–23.)" Does this mean that Jesus is married and currently having spirit offspring? Or does it mean Jesus is not exalted? Thanks, Jim
Jeanne Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 2 minutes ago, theplains said: I had some questions on the article in the June 2016 Liahona magazine. "The plan of salvation was first taught on this earth to Adam and Eve, our first parents. They learned about the gospel of Jesus Christ and how to return to Heavenly Father’s presence." Was this in the Garden of Eden or after the Fall? "Telestial kingdom: the home of those who were wicked and did not accept the gospel of Jesus Christ, who were not resurrected until after the Millennium (see D&C 76:81–89)." Does this mean the wicked people, who rejected Jesus and his gospel, will live better lives than they currently do on Earth? "Exaltation includes being sealed in marriage for eternity, living in eternal families, and having eternal spirit offspring. (See D&C 76:59, 62; 130:2; 132:19–23.)" Does this mean that Jesus is married and currently having spirit offspring? Or does it mean Jesus is not exalted? Thanks, Jim Ooooo..good question. I have one too. They were created mortally..but before the fall, was it necessary to remove the veil..the knowledge they had before they came here. Is it possible that as spirits, they were taught this and remembered?
JLHPROF Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 1 minute ago, theplains said: I had some questions on the article in the June 2016 Liahona magazine. "The plan of salvation was first taught on this earth to Adam and Eve, our first parents. They learned about the gospel of Jesus Christ and how to return to Heavenly Father’s presence." Was this in the Garden of Eden or after the Fall? It was after whatever point the veil was placed upon them. But it was after the fall as they would have no need of Christ or a return to God's presence while they were still in his presence. Quote "Telestial kingdom: the home of those who were wicked and did not accept the gospel of Jesus Christ, who were not resurrected until after the Millennium (see D&C 76:81–89)." Does this mean the wicked people, who rejected Jesus and his gospel, will live better lives than they currently do on Earth? Eternal life is naturally better than mortality. This means a Telestial world, without death, sickness, hunger, pain etc, would have to be better than earth. Quote Exaltation includes being sealed in marriage for eternity, living in eternal families, and having eternal spirit offspring. (See D&C 76:59, 62; 130:2; 132:19–23.)" Does this mean that Jesus is married and currently having spirit offspring? Or does it mean Jesus is not exalted? Jesus was married and is exalted. Whether he has begun creating spirit offspring we do not know. He's probably kind of preoccupied with this earth right now. 1
Ahab Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 6 minutes ago, theplains said: "Exaltation includes being sealed in marriage for eternity, living in eternal families, and having eternal spirit offspring. (See D&C 76:59, 62; 130:2; 132:19–23.)" Does this mean that Jesus is married and currently having spirit offspring? Or does it mean Jesus is not exalted? Thanks, Jim Let's put it this way: When a man is exalted he will have a wife that he can have children with, forever, and their children will be a part of their family, forever. And yes Jesus is still a man.
JLHPROF Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 22 minutes ago, Jeanne said: Ooooo..good question. I have one too. They were created mortally..but before the fall, was it necessary to remove the veil..the knowledge they had before they came here. Is it possible that as spirits, they were taught this and remembered? The plan to fall was decided in the same premortal council where the Savior was chosen to redeem us from the fall. If the fall wasn't the plan there would be no need to choose a Savior. So prior to the veil being placed, Adam and Eve would have known the fall was going to happen.
Jeanne Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 7 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: The plan to fall was decided in the same premortal council where the Savior was chosen to redeem us from the fall. If the fall wasn't the plan there would be no need to choose a Savior. So prior to the veil being placed, Adam and Eve would have known the fall was going to happen. I realize this..my question really was seeing as how they were not born mortally like all us..was the veil really lifted? God spoke to them everyday. But I guess if they could remember the heavens, there would have not been a fall.
JLHPROF Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Jeanne said: I realize this..my question really was seeing as how they were not born mortally like all us..was the veil really lifted? God spoke to them everyday. But I guess if they could remember the heavens, there would have not been a fall. Quite the opposite. If they remembered the plan established in the heavens they would have still fallen. With the veil they still fell. The fall was the plan. Edited June 23, 2016 by JLHPROF 1
Ahab Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 19 minutes ago, Jeanne said: I realize this..my question really was seeing as how they were not born mortally like all us..was the veil really lifted? God spoke to them everyday. But I guess if they could remember the heavens, there would have not been a fall. The veil has to do with memory, more or less. They didn't remember the family council meeting in heaven when they were placed in the garden of Eden. Just as most of us now here don't remember that either. Mmm. Mmm. Memories... light the corners of my mind... 1
TheSkepticChristian Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 59 minutes ago, theplains said: "Telestial kingdom: the home of those who were wicked and did not accept the gospel of Jesus Christ, who were not resurrected until after the Millennium (see D&C 76:81–89)." Does this mean the wicked people, who rejected Jesus and his gospel, will live better lives than they currently do on Earth? Yes! that is why I came to realize that I have more to lose if the gospel is false, than to gain if the gospel is true. 57 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Eternal life is naturally better than mortality. This means a Telestial world, without death, sickness, hunger, pain etc, would have to be better than earth. Sounds like a good deal to me.
Jeanne Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 13 minutes ago, Ahab said: The veil has to do with memory, more or less. They didn't remember the family council meeting in heaven when they were placed in the garden of Eden. Just as most of us now here don't remember that either. Mmm. Mmm. Memories... light the corners of my mind... i so love that song!! 1
JLHPROF Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 45 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: Yes! that is why I came to realize that I have more to lose if the gospel is false, than to gain if the gospel is true. Sounds like a good deal to me. It's true. The Telestial is a good deal. The perks of eternal life without any of the responsibilities of God's Kingdom. You have nothing to lose if the gospel is false. You have everything to lose if the gospel is true and you reject it. 1
Bobbieaware Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, theplains said: I had some questions on the article in the June 2016 Liahona magazine. "The plan of salvation was first taught on this earth to Adam and Eve, our first parents. They learned about the gospel of Jesus Christ and how to return to Heavenly Father’s presence." Was this in the Garden of Eden or after the Fall? "Telestial kingdom: the home of those who were wicked and did not accept the gospel of Jesus Christ, who were not resurrected until after the Millennium (see D&C 76:81–89)." Does this mean the wicked people, who rejected Jesus and his gospel, will live better lives than they currently do on Earth? "Exaltation includes being sealed in marriage for eternity, living in eternal families, and having eternal spirit offspring. (See D&C 76:59, 62; 130:2; 132:19–23.)" Does this mean that Jesus is married and currently having spirit offspring? Or does it mean Jesus is not exalted? Thanks, Jim I'm quite sure I've explained what I'm about to say to you before, but I guess it didn't stick with you. Sections 76 and 138 of the Doctrine and Covenants both reveal that by the time of the final judgement all but the sons of perdition will have received Christ as their personal Savior and received a remission of their sins. The glorious post-resurrection lives the FORMERLY WICKED inhabitants of the telestial degree of heaven will live Is only made possible through the exercise of genuine faith in Christ, repentance of sins, and a heartfelt willingness to confess to God the Father that Jesus is the Christ. In Mormonism, no man can be saved in wickedness and this is why all but the sons of perdition will eventually have to repent of their sins and accept Christ as Savior in order to receive salvation in one of the Father's heavenly mansions of glory. 109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore; 110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all (the inheritors of the telestial heaven) shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever; Please note in the LDS Bible a footnote on verse 110 takes one to Philippians where the apostle Paul reveals the confession the saved must make to God the Father is that Jesus is the Christ. Get the idea that the Latter-day Saints believe the wicked will inherit the telestial kingdom out of your head. Only those with faith in Christ can be saved in one of the Father's many heavenly mansions of glory. Edited June 24, 2016 by Bobbieaware
TheSkepticChristian Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: You have nothing to lose if the gospel is false. I may lose everything if I never sign up for Alcor. I already made a lot of sacrifices for the Lord that affected my life, I think I am done. When I was a teenager my life was not easy, I did not grow up in Mormon Utah. Instead of going to parties, I went in to my desk to read the scriptures. I never enjoyed my life when I was teenager, I had no friends at church. Everyone was having a good time, except for me. 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: You have everything to lose if the gospel is true and you reject it. No! The lower kingdoms are supposed to be better than our current life on Earth. What could I lose? Edited June 24, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
JLHPROF Posted June 24, 2016 Posted June 24, 2016 2 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: I already made a lot of sacrifices for the Lord that affected my life, I think I am done. When I was a teenager my life was not easy, I did not grow up in Mormon Utah. Instead of going to parties, I went in to my desk to read the scriptures. I never enjoyed my life when I was teenager, I had no friends at church. Everyone was having a good time, except for me. Really? Not sure if this is the "I didn't get to sin" argument or the "I was an outcast" argument. If the former I have no sympathy. If the latter I can empathize. Quote No! The lower kingdoms are supposed to be better than our current life on Earth. What could I lose? If earth is driving a Yugo, and the Telestial is driving a Camry, then the Celestial is driving a Ferrari. Or whatever metaphor floats your boat. 1
Tacenda Posted June 24, 2016 Posted June 24, 2016 (edited) 5 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Quite the opposite. If they remembered the plan established in the heavens they would have still fallen. With the veil they still fell. The fall was the plan. 6 hours ago, JLHPROF said: The plan to fall was decided in the same premortal council where the Savior was chosen to redeem us from the fall. If the fall wasn't the plan there would be no need to choose a Savior. So prior to the veil being placed, Adam and Eve would have known the fall was going to happen. Why is this all so confusing to me? I've always had such hard time wrapping my head around these things. Edited June 24, 2016 by Tacenda
JLHPROF Posted June 24, 2016 Posted June 24, 2016 1 minute ago, Tacenda said: Why is this all so confusing to me, always have had a hard time with these things. I'm not sure where the confusion lies. Is there some aspect that doesn't make sense. Books of Abraham, Moses, and the Temple ALL show the fall to be the plan and the Savior chosen to lead us back from the fall long before it happened. Eve rejoiced in the fall. Without the fall there would be no progression and no resurrection. What do you feel is confusing about this?
Freedom Posted June 24, 2016 Posted June 24, 2016 There is no doctrine on where spirits come from and it is very unlikely that they are sired the way mortal bodies are sired. We have always existed. The next life will be a life of living our greatest potential no mater what type of person we are. God has his arms opened up to us, we choose what we receive.
JLHPROF Posted June 24, 2016 Posted June 24, 2016 9 minutes ago, Freedom said: There is no doctrine on where spirits come from and it is very unlikely that they are sired the way mortal bodies are sired. We have always existed. The next life will be a life of living our greatest potential no mater what type of person we are. God has his arms opened up to us, we choose what we receive. No "official" doctrine.
RevTestament Posted June 24, 2016 Posted June 24, 2016 31 minutes ago, Freedom said: There is no doctrine on where spirits come from and it is very unlikely that they are sired the way mortal bodies are sired. We have always existed. The next life will be a life of living our greatest potential no mater what type of person we are. God has his arms opened up to us, we choose what we receive. 21 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: No "official" doctrine. There is official scripture - see Abraham. Also, King Follet discourse
TheSkepticChristian Posted June 24, 2016 Posted June 24, 2016 (edited) 4 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Really? Not sure if this is the "I didn't get to sin" argument or the "I was an outcast" argument. If the former I have no sympathy. If the latter I can empathize. I didn't get to enjoy life. Is there something wrong with enjoying life? 4 hours ago, JLHPROF said: If earth is driving a Yugo, and the Telestial is driving a Camry, then the Celestial is driving a Ferrari. Or whatever metaphor floats your boat. If the Gospel is true you get one 1.Yugo 2. Camry 3.or a Ferrari If the Gospel is not true you get nothing, Is it really worth it to keep making sacrifices for a God that I am not sure exists? Please tell me why? I did everything for the church, all my life I been doing so much for the church, why should I keep fighting for the church? Edited June 24, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
VideoGameJunkie Posted June 24, 2016 Posted June 24, 2016 I hope when I die I go to Spirit Paradise. I've done enough sin to warrant Spirit Prison, but I've also repented enough to reclaim a spot in Paradise so I'll find out for sure when I get there.
theplains Posted June 26, 2016 Author Posted June 26, 2016 On 23/06/2016 at 7:16 PM, JLHPROF said: You have nothing to lose if the gospel is false. You have everything to lose if the gospel is true and you reject it. But the article that I quoted said, "Telestial kingdom: the home of those who were wicked and did not accept the gospel of Jesus Christ, who were not resurrected until after the Millennium (see D&C 76:81–89)." If the gospel is true and you reject it, you will end up in the Telestial Kingdom according to this LDS teaching. Based on this, they are actually gaining a better life than what they had in mortality. Thanks, Jim
VideoGameJunkie Posted June 26, 2016 Posted June 26, 2016 (edited) 4 minutes ago, theplains said: But the article that I quoted said, "Telestial kingdom: the home of those who were wicked and did not accept the gospel of Jesus Christ, who were not resurrected until after the Millennium (see D&C 76:81–89)." If the gospel is true and you reject it, you will end up in the Telestial Kingdom according to this LDS teaching. Based on this, they are actually gaining a better life than what they had in mortality. Thanks, Jim Ya but they still have to suffer from death until the end of the Millennium. I wouldn't want to be in that boat. Edited June 26, 2016 by VideoGameJunkie
theplains Posted June 26, 2016 Author Posted June 26, 2016 On 23/06/2016 at 7:41 PM, Bobbieaware said: Sections 76 and 138 of the Doctrine and Covenants both reveal that by the time of the final judgement all but the sons of perdition will have received Christ as their personal Savior and received a remission of their sins. The glorious post-resurrection lives the FORMERLY WICKED inhabitants of the telestial degree of heaven will live Is only made possible through the exercise of genuine faith in Christ, repentance of sins, and a heartfelt willingness to confess to God the Father that Jesus is the Christ. In Mormonism, no man can be saved in wickedness and this is why all but the sons of perdition will eventually have to repent of their sins and accept Christ as Savior in order to receive salvation in one of the Father's heavenly mansions of glory. 110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all (the inheritors of the telestial heaven) shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever; Please note in the LDS Bible a footnote on verse 110 takes one to Philippians where the apostle Paul reveals the confession the saved must make to God the Father is that Jesus is the Christ. Get the idea that the Latter-day Saints believe the wicked will inherit the telestial kingdom out of your head. Only those with faith in Christ can be saved in one of the Father's many heavenly mansions of glory The passages do not imply what you say. At the Judgment Day, they will acknowledge Christ as Lord but this is not after they have confessed their sins. After death, everybody will believe, but then it will be too late. As the Bible says, it is appointed unto man to die and then the judgment. There is no second chance after death. Study the parable of the Ten Virgins. That is the danger of believing a false gospel ... the false doctrine that you can prepare to meet God after you die. While I don't believe all Book of Mormon passages, it does offer something for Latter-day Saints on the matter. The Book of Mormon teaches mortal life is the time for people to prepare to meet God, not some life after death. "For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors” (Alma 34:32). The mortal time of preparation is also called the probationary period (Alma 5:31; 12:24-26; 41:6; 42:4, 10; 2 Nephi 2:30; 9:27). "Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world” (Alma 34:34). "Then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed ... For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the fi nal state of the wicked" (Alma 34:32, 35). The wicked are sealed to go with the devil. After death, they wait in this state of darkness and fear until the resurrection. Then they are cast into outer darkness (Alma 40:11-14). Thanks, Jim
VideoGameJunkie Posted June 26, 2016 Posted June 26, 2016 17 minutes ago, theplains said: The passages do not imply what you say. At the Judgment Day, they will acknowledge Christ as Lord but this is not after they have confessed their sins. After death, everybody will believe, but then it will be too late. As the Bible says, it is appointed unto man to die and then the judgment. There is no second chance after death. Study the parable of the Ten Virgins. That is the danger of believing a false gospel ... the false doctrine that you can prepare to meet God after you die. While I don't believe all Book of Mormon passages, it does offer something for Latter-day Saints on the matter. The Book of Mormon teaches mortal life is the time for people to prepare to meet God, not some life after death. "For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors” (Alma 34:32). The mortal time of preparation is also called the probationary period (Alma 5:31; 12:24-26; 41:6; 42:4, 10; 2 Nephi 2:30; 9:27). "Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world” (Alma 34:34). "Then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed ... For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the fi nal state of the wicked" (Alma 34:32, 35). The wicked are sealed to go with the devil. After death, they wait in this state of darkness and fear until the resurrection. Then they are cast into outer darkness (Alma 40:11-14). Thanks, Jim plains are you saying temple work for the dead is pointless because it's too late once someone's died?
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