They Can Leave the Church But They Can't Leave It Alone

bdouglas · June 9, 2016

Dealing with OP—

Is there any other group or religion that anyone knows about where someone (say, like my cousin) leaves it, declaring that he is "110% certain it is a fraud," but then can't stay away from it, rather he spends hours every day pouring over Mormon internet sites (but only the anti sites)?

Maybe we see this with some extremely orthodox Jewish sects, the Hasidim. Someone leaves, he/she says, "I don't believe it anymore." But then they burn up hours ever day going over the old texts and commentaries looking for flaws, etc.

What about Catholics? Do they do this? Evangelicals?

Or is this a phenomenon peculiar to Mormonism?

For my part, I don't know. But I do find it very odd. I believe the people I personally know who have left the church, declaring it to be a fraud, but still can't leave it alone, even after many years, do so because they have a suspicion that they might be wrong.

But again, I don't know. If I were to ask one of these people why, even after many years, he is still picking at the scab, he might say, "I was a Mormon for 35 years. I swallowed the whole thing hook line and sinker. I drank the lemonade, and it f----d up my life. I am now simply trying to put it back together again, but I can't do that without going over everything."

Edited June 9, 2016 by bdouglas

Johnnie Cake · June 9, 2016

1 minute ago, Gray said:

In the end I say, if your approach works for you, go for it!

I agree...I'm all for Mutual Respect

Jeanne · June 9, 2016

Just now, bdouglas said:

Dealing with OP—

Is there any other group or religion that anyone knows about where someone (say, like my cousin) leaves it, declaring that he is "110% certain it is a fraud," but then can't stay away from it, rather he spends hours every day pouring over Mormon internet sites (but only the anti sites)?

Maybe we see this with some extreme orthodox Jewish sect, the Hasidim. Someone leaves, he/she says, "I don't believe it anymore." But then they burn up hours ever day going over the old texts and commentaries looking for flaws, etc.

What about Catholics? Do they do this? Evangelicals?

Or is this a phenomenon peculiar to Mormonism?

For my part, I don't know. But I do find it very odd. I believe the people I personally know who have left the church, declaring it to be a fraud, but still can't leave it alone, even after many years, do so because (I think) they have a suspicion that they might be wrong.

But again, I don't know. If I were to ask one of these people why, even after many years, he is still picking at the scab, he might say, "I was a Mormon for 35 years. I swallowed the whole thing hook line and sinker. I drank the lemonade, and it f----d up my life. I am now simply trying to put it back together again, but I can't do that without going over everything."

Well...as an ex-mormon myself. I can meet you half way on a response. After over 45 years in mormonism..you bet..I am still trying to pick out what to believe..what to keep..what to give away..and keep my integrity. My main reason for getting on this board was for the women. I needed to know what kept them in..I left doors open as I am so much a part of you than a sacrament meeting! I think that I just want to make sure that God loves me too.

Johnnie Cake · June 9, 2016

12 minutes ago, bdouglas said:

Dealing with OP—

Is there any other group or religion that anyone knows about where someone (say, like my cousin) leaves it, declaring that he is "110% certain it is a fraud," but then can't stay away from it, rather he spends hours every day pouring over Mormon internet sites (but only the anti sites)?

Maybe we see this with some extreme orthodox Jewish sect, the Hasidim. Someone leaves, he/she says, "I don't believe it anymore." But then they burn up hours ever day going over the old texts and commentaries looking for flaws, etc.

What about Catholics? Do they do this? Evangelicals?

Or is this a phenomenon peculiar to Mormonism?

For my part, I don't know. But I do find it very odd. I believe the people I personally know who have left the church, declaring it to be a fraud, but still can't leave it alone, even after many years, do so because they have a suspicion that they might be wrong.

But again, I don't know. If I were to ask one of these people why, even after many years, he is still picking at the scab, he might say, "I was a Mormon for 35 years. I swallowed the whole thing hook line and sinker. I drank the lemonade, and it f----d up my life. I am now simply trying to put it back together again, but I can't do that without going over everything."

I think (I'm assuming here) that one would find this particular phenomena in fundamentalist religions with dogmatic belief structures that conflict with well established scientific premises...Religions like the JW's, Scientology, 7th Day advents and yes Mormon's...each of these have a plethora of critic websites

Edited June 9, 2016 by Johnnie Cake

Mystery Meat · June 9, 2016

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

Have you ever read Tolkien? Not only did he make up a consistent geography and setting, he also made up history, mythology, lore, and multiple languages. And he did it across multiple books...

(and he was also a very dedicated Catholic!)

Indeed, he only had to spend his entire life doing it.

ALarson · June 9, 2016

26 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

He and Oliver (or he and Sidney depending which anti you listen to) simply didn't have the abilities to do so in 3 years.

Of course you know that if someone does not believe Joseph had or used the gold plates, they believe that Joseph had more years than just 3 to write the Book of Mormon (the years prior to when he began dictating it). I'm not saying I believe this, but it is a common opinion among those who believe that Joseph wrote it (himself or with help).

Edited June 9, 2016 by ALarson

bdouglas · June 9, 2016

7 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Well...as an ex-mormon myself. I can meet you half way on a response. After over 45 years in mormonism..you bet..I am still trying to pick out what to believe..what to keep..what to give away..and keep my integrity. My main reason for getting on this board was for the women. I needed to know what kept them in..I left doors open as I am so much a part of you than a sacrament meeting! I think that I just want to make sure that God loves me too.

I appreciate your comment here. I'm an odd case, maybe, because, while I am a firm believer, I am not conventionally very active, and haven't been for a long time. It's hard for me to attend church meetings — although I keep trying. I used to go to LDS 12 step meetings because I have struggled, since I was a teenager, with drug addiction. But lately I've stopped going to these meetings, partly because I'm in recovery. But recovery is always tenuous for any addict and I know I still ought to go to my meetings, but . . . I don't know. Ideally I would like to re-marry (I'm divorced), get back my temple recommend and go on a mission.

Really that is my dream. I want to be a missionary again.

Edited June 9, 2016 by bdouglas

Gray · June 9, 2016

35 minutes ago, bdouglas said:

If the book was a fraud, one sign would be that, for example, Nephi would sound exactly like his brother, Jacob. But their voices are very different. After coming off 2 Nephi and then reading Jacob it is almost jarring because Jacob's voice is very different than Nephi's.

Hagrid's voice is different from Harry Potter's though.

Gray · June 9, 2016

18 minutes ago, bdouglas said:

Dealing with OP—

Is there any other group or religion that anyone knows about where someone (say, like my cousin) leaves it, declaring that he is "110% certain it is a fraud," but then can't stay away from it, rather he spends hours every day pouring over Mormon internet sites (but only the anti sites)?

Maybe we see this with some extremely orthodox Jewish sects, the Hasidim. Someone leaves, he/she says, "I don't believe it anymore." But then they burn up hours ever day going over the old texts and commentaries looking for flaws, etc.

What about Catholics? Do they do this? Evangelicals?

Or is this a phenomenon peculiar to Mormonism?

For my part, I don't know. But I do find it very odd. I believe the people I personally know who have left the church, declaring it to be a fraud, but still can't leave it alone, even after many years, do so because they have a suspicion that they might be wrong.

But again, I don't know. If I were to ask one of these people why, even after many years, he is still picking at the scab, he might say, "I was a Mormon for 35 years. I swallowed the whole thing hook line and sinker. I drank the lemonade, and it f----d up my life. I am now simply trying to put it back together again, but I can't do that without going over everything."

I believe there is a similar phenomenon with Jehovah's Witnesses. See for example: https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw

jkwilliams · June 9, 2016

34 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

An opinion based on observation and common sense.
There is no reasonable way to say Joseph created the Book of Mormon. He and Oliver (or he and Sidney depending which anti you listen to) simply didn't have the abilities to do so in 3 years.

What leads you to believe that?

Johnnie Cake · June 9, 2016

8 minutes ago, bdouglas said:

I appreciate your comment here. I'm an odd case, maybe, because, while I am a firm believer, I am not conventionally very active, and haven't been for a long time. It's hard for me to attend church meetings — although I keep trying. I used to go to LDS 12 step meetings because I have struggled, since I was a teenager, with drug addiction. But lately I've stopped going to these meetings, partly because I'm in recovery. But recovery is always tenuous for any addict and I know I still ought to go to my meetings, but . . . I don't know. Ideally I would like to re-marry (I'm divorced), get back my temple recommend and go on a mission.

Really that is my dream. I want to be a missionary again.

I sincerely hope your dream is fulfilled... I'm sure you'd be a great missionary for the church.

jkwilliams · June 9, 2016

Just now, Gray said:

I believe there is a similar phenomenon with Jehovah's Witnesses. See for example: https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw

In my experience, there is a direct relationship between the amount of time/effort/devotion one put into his or her religion and the inability to "leave it alone." It makes sense to me that those who leave religions that demand a lot--such as the LDS church and the Jehovah's Witnesses, for example--tend to spend more time dissecting their experience and former beliefs.

Jeanne · June 9, 2016

12 minutes ago, bdouglas said:

I appreciate your comment here. I'm an odd case, maybe, because, while I am a firm believer, I am not conventionally very active, and haven't been for a long time. It's hard for me to attend church meetings — although I keep trying. I used to go to LDS 12 step meetings because I have struggled, since I was a teenager, with drug addiction. But lately I've stopped going to these meetings, partly because I'm in recovery. But recovery is always tenuous for any addict and I know I still ought to go to my meetings, but . . . I don't know. Ideally I would like to re-marry (I'm divorced), get back my temple recommend and go on a mission.

Really that is my dream. I want to be a missionary again.

I wish this for you. We are strangers and yet I find myself wishing for your happiness wherever you may find it. I would love to express here how impressed and how proud YOU should be to even know what you want and what to aim for. The fact that you have struggled with addiction speaks volumes about you strength in character. I guess if you want the mission dream..you will have to start attending Sacrament Meeting..just know that in or out of those meetings, you are okay.

Edited June 9, 2016 by Jeanne

jkwilliams · June 9, 2016

4 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I sincerely hope your dream is fulfilled... I'm sure you'd be a great missionary for the church.

For years after my mission I had a recurring dream that I was back on my mission, only I knew I had a wife and children but somehow was a missionary who still had time left to serve. It was never a happy dream, but always a nightmare. I would wake up in a panic and then look over at my wife, and breathe a big sigh of relief.

Edited June 9, 2016 by jkwilliams

Tacenda · June 9, 2016

3 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

Bad choice. There's a reason you keep quiet: speaking up tends to make things worse. A few years ago I had a home teacher who kept trying to get me to explain to him why I didn't believe anymore. We became pretty good friends, and after probably 2 years of him pushing, I finally took him to lunch and we discussed where I was coming from over about 2 hours. It was a really pleasant conversation, and I thought it went well. What followed was a barrage of hostile emails from him that really took me by surprise. I tried to be polite, but he kept on the attack until I called him on the phone and told him I didn't think the conversation was very productive and we ought to let it go. Then he said he must have offended me. We're still friends, but that was not a good experience.

I'm glad you chimed in as quickly as you did, maybe Johnnie will dodge that bullet. I shouldn't have spoke up before thinking about it. You're right, he might put off a few people. But maybe he wants to. For me personally, I'm not ready to keep people away, I already feel like I do that without really trying. I don't want to be ostracized entirely.

So Johnnie, if you're reading, what do you think? Maybe hold off?

Johnnie Cake · June 9, 2016

2 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

In my experience, there is a direct relationship between the amount of time/effort/devotion one put into his or her religion and the inability to "leave it alone." It makes sense to me that those who leave religions that demand a lot--such as the LDS church and the Jehovah's Witnesses, for example--tend to spend more time dissecting their experience and former beliefs.

Well stated...not to mention the dollars. A mere $10,000 annual donation over a 40 year period would exceed $1,500,000...not chump change

Johnnie Cake · June 9, 2016

7 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

For years after my mission I had a recurring dream that I was back on my mission, only I knew I had a wife and children but somehow was a missionary who still had time left to serve. It was never a happy dream, but always a nightmare. I would wake up in a panic and then look over at my wife, and breathe a big sigh of relief.

I loved/love my mission experience...yet still had those same nightmares...weird huh. What's up with that. I've spoken with many former missionaries who have had similar experiences with mission themed nightmares

bdouglas · June 9, 2016

18 minutes ago, Gray said:

Hagrid's voice is different from Harry Potter's though.

Really? I have never read Harry Potter but I doubt their voices are substantially any different (apart from one character is old, one is young, etc.). In "The Tempest", Prospero's voice is very different from Caliban's — the rhythms, the syntax, they are all different. And Miranda's voice is different in the same way from, say, Ariel's voice. You see this in great literature. It is rare. I doubt one would see it in Harry Potter.

James Tunney · June 9, 2016

5 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I loved/love my mission experience...yet still had those same nightmares...weird huh. What's up with that. I've spoken with many former missionaries who have had similar experiences with mission themed nightmares

I've had similar dreams about still being on a mission or getting called again and having to leave family. These also weren't very pleasant. I guess the intensity of the mission experience with all the pressure to perform and get good weekly and monthly numbers makes the subconscious mind go crazy.

Calm · June 9, 2016

Nehor, I need you to marry my daughter so I can have someone else to talk Tolkien with in the family (everyone has read it, but they talk more of the movies than the books).

Johnnie Cake · June 9, 2016

21 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I'm glad you chimed in as quickly as you did, maybe Johnnie will dodge that bullet. I shouldn't have spoke up before thinking about it. You're right, he might put off a few people. But maybe he wants to. For me personally, I'm not ready to keep people away, I already feel like I do that without really trying. I don't want to be ostracized entirely.

So Johnnie, if you're reading, what do you think? Maybe hold off?

Just depends on who's asking....with the most recent 2 baptism invites...I just changed the subject with one and on the other I just smiled and walked away...knowing that in both situations it was easier to just bite my tongue then to get into it with believers. However when my wives SP asked, I fired both barrels

Edited June 9, 2016 by Johnnie Cake

Okrahomer · June 9, 2016

1 hour ago, bdouglas said:

P.S. - I don't normally say so much. Sorry.

Please say more!

Calm · June 9, 2016

53 minutes ago, bdouglas said:

Dealing with OP—

Is there any other group or religion that anyone knows about where someone (say, like my cousin) leaves it, declaring that he is "110% certain it is a fraud," but then can't stay away from it, rather he spends hours every day pouring over Mormon internet sites (but only the anti sites)?

Maybe we see this with some extremely orthodox Jewish sects, the Hasidim. Someone leaves, he/she says, "I don't believe it anymore." But then they burn up hours ever day going over the old texts and commentaries looking for flaws, etc.

What about Catholics? Do they do this? Evangelicals?

Or is this a phenomenon peculiar to Mormonism?

I have seen it for almost any faith I have delved into significantly, but I suspect there are higher percentages of former members of some faiths than others as well as varied reasons. It would be interesting to do a study on this.

Calm · June 9, 2016

I am with Okra, bd. I find your posts interesting and a highly positive contribution to the board.

The Nehor · June 9, 2016

53 minutes ago, Gray said:

Hagrid's voice is different from Harry Potter's though.

As much as I love Hagrid he is a caricature of the British well-meaning oaf and not a deep character with his own voice.

Harry Potter also is not like the Book of Mormon in point of view. The narrator in Harry Potter who tells the story is a consistent voice. There are four major voices in the Book of Mormon and all speak in the first person. First person fiction with multiple characters exists but is pretty rare. It is a hard style to write in.

That the not very literary Joseph switched voices so well even when what was being said did not alter that much is either a credit to his untaught literary genius or an indictment against his being a fraud.

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